Problem with the A Song of Ice and Fire powerscaling

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I just discovered a problem in the scaling of A Song of Ice and Fire's characters.

Gregor Clegane is street level, 3000 joules to be a bit more precise, by crushing Oberyn's skull with a single punch. Thanks to this feat most characters also have this AP via scaling, which also includes durability logically.

And that is the problem. If Oberyn's skull was crushed by Gregor, that means he doesn't have durability that can tank blows close to 3000 joules of energy. It might just downgrade Oberyn Martell to Athlete level, but it wouldn't make sense for a renowned warrior like him to be dozen or hundreds of times physically weaker than most warriors in Westeros.

What to do in this case ?

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Arkenis]

May just be most dont have that dura

 

[Arkenis]

And renowned warrior could be due to his swordplay not because he can withstand all their attack.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

May just be most dont have that dura

A character cannot have an Attack Potency greater than its durability, according to the Durability page:

Newton's Third Law of Motion dictates that any contact force done by one entity on another will be met with a force on the latter entity on the former that is equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction. This can be summarized with the phrase: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

When durability is being discussed, this is especially relevant. If a character can physically attack with a certain level of Attack Potency, showing no sign of pain from said physical attack should be cause for their Durability scaling to their Attack Potency. This is because the character would be forced to withstand a force equal in magnitude to it, and withstanding such a force means the two would be comparable to one another.

And renowned warrior could be due to his swordplay not because he can withstand all their attack.

He wouldn't be a great warrior if he couldn't cross swords with other warriors. I don't think an Athlete level character can parry a blow from a character that can produce 3000 joules of energy, or close to that, without getting disarmed and having its arms broken.

 

[Arkenis]

He wouldn't be a great warrior if he couldn't cross swords with other warriors. I don't think an Athlete level character can parry a blow from a character that can produce 3000 joules of energy, or close to that, without getting disarmed and having its arms broken.

So he got his skull crushed, but is able to trade sword strikes with the person.

Is it not common in series for someone to be weaker but be better at combatting someone through skill? Also it can just be the case that Gregor is > 3000j and Oberyn is somewhat below that. And I’ve only watch the tv show, but I swear the skull thing was towards the end of their fight where Oberyn was weakened no?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So he got his skull crushed, but is able to trade sword strikes with the person.

It hasn't really done that (Oberyn fought with an eight meter spear to hold the Mountain at bay and dodged his blows, Oberyn parried none), but it can do it via scaling yes

Is it not common in series for someone to be weaker but be better at combatting someone through skill?

Yes but there are limits. Even with a higher skill, an Island level cannot defeat a Country level in melee combat for example (the gap between Gregor Clegane and an Athlete level isn't as big of course, but it's enough to prevent any IRL people from being able to physically melee the Mountain).

Also it can just be the case that Gregor is > 3000j and Oberyn is somewhat below that.

I don't know if this explanation will be accepted, because we always take the lowest-end in terms of feat (but maybe i'm wrong), and that of Gregor is 3000 joules.
And we know that no IRL fighter can crush the skull of another human, whether they are Below Average Human or Human (at least 60 joules) or Athlete (at least 106 joules) or Street level (at least 300 joules), with a single punch although they can reach 1600 joules. The gap between Oberyn's AP and that of Gregor was therefore even greater than that of a teenager and that of the powerful fighters of human history. And in this case Oberyn cannot even have an Attack Potency of 2000 joules or above.

The explanation may be that Gregor's feat is an outlier (but maybe i'm wrong again)

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And I’ve only watch the tv show, but I swear the skull thing was towards the end of their fight where Oberyn was weakened no?

Oberyn wasn't weakened, and even if he was it wouldn't matter.

 

[Arkenis]

It hasn't really done that (Oberyn fought with an eight meter spear to hold the Mountain at bay and dodged his blows, Oberyn parried none), but it can do it via scaling yes

Alright so we have no real way to scale Oberyn to Gregor since he never parried them but he got hit by them and tanked those but not the one to the head?

Yes but there are limits. Even with a higher skill, an Island level cannot defeat a Country level in melee combat for example (the gap between Gregor Clegane and an Athlete level isn't as big of course, but it's enough to prevent any IRL people from being able to physically melee the Mountain).

If Gregor can never hit them and they’re a better fighter then they would win. Especially with weapons like a spear or sword, it isn’t like Gregor has skin more durable than iron.

I don't know if this explanation will be accepted, because we always take the lowest-end in terms of feat (but maybe i'm wrong), and that of Gregor is 3000 joules.

I’m framing this in the context that Oberyn is considered a great warrior so by that he’d be somewhat stronger than the nobodies in the series, who can reach 1600j, not my higher but still it allows the idea that Oberyn isn’t a random in terms of power.

The explanation may be that Gregor's feat is an outlier (but maybe i'm wrong again)

I don’t see it as that, do a lot of people scale to Gregor? If he’s considered by others to be strong then it adds to his feat being consistent with his portrayal in the series. Would be odd to dismiss the feat because Oberyn doesn’t scale when Oberyn intentionally fought with a spear. And about always taking the low end, we do that for calcs yes, but I’m talking about Gregor being seen as higher than just 3000j.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Alright so we have no real way to scale Oberyn to Gregor since he never parried them but he got hit by them and tanked those but not the one to the head?

Oberyn was not hit by them. The only blow he took was the one that killed him, the one in the face. Oberyn is less physically strong than Gregor, but logically his AP should still scale to Gregor's because it is also the case for other characters.

If Gregor can never hit them and they’re a better fighter then they would win. Especially with weapons like a spear or sword, it isn’t like Gregor has skin more durable than iron.

Sandor is able to parry Gregor's blows, he even withstood a blow at full power :

The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it,

although Gregor is stronger than Sandor :

Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human.

And other characters who aren't warriors as famous as Oberyn are able to cross swords with Sandor Clegane, like Thoros of Myr, Beric Dondarrion and even Polliver, a simple man-at-arms of Gregor.


So almost all ASOIAF fighters would be able to parry Gregor Clegane's blows, sword to sword, to cross swords with him, even if Gregor is stronger than them. A severely weakened Gregor Clegane has enough strength to crush a human's skull with just one punch, so imagine his strength when he's at his prime and he strikes with a six-foot greatsword with both his hands.
Sandor Clegane's arms literally supported this kind of blow, and many other characters' arms, as strong as Sandor or not, can themselves support Sandor's in a fight.

So the AP of most characters in ASOIAF is close to that of Gregor, which is also the case for their durability, by default (because durability cannot be less than attack potency, only equal to or greater than the latter. Unless the character gets hurt with each hit they make, this is not the case here.)
But if a character's attack potency and durability is close to the Mountain's AP, he can't get his head crushed like that. But that's what happened to Oberyn, and that's the whole problem.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Crabwhale]

Hello there, only read the first two books here, but I'll try my best to answer.

Honestly I question the wisdom of scaling anyone to Gregor Clegane period. Or at least, anyone who isn't supernatural. The whole point of the guy is that he's impossibly big and strong: he's an 8 foot tall non-pathologic giant with zero body issues and monstrous strength. I don't think anyone without a sword is doing jackshit.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I don't think anyone without a sword is doing jackshit.

Yes, but even with a sword you have to have the necessary strength in your arms to withstand Gregor's blows, as his brother did. Or is it Sandor Clegane's feat that should be considered an outlier?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Crabwhale]

Yes, but even with a sword you have to have the necessary strength in your arms to withstand Gregor's blows, as his brother did. Or is it Sandor Clegane's feat that should be considered an outlier?

I was moreso talking about his durability.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I was moreso talking about his durability.

The durability of the Mountain ?

 

[Crabwhale]

Yes.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I don't think Gregor's durability matters here.

 

[Crabwhale]

Apologies, is the scaling here being based on parrying ability?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Apologies, is the scaling here being based on parrying ability?

Yes.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Crabwhale]

Maybe look to getting a few more staff to reply?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Yes, because this question is still very important for the caling of this verse, but it is forbidden to mention staff members for people who are not I believe

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And I don't know yet how upscaling/scaling/downscaling works in this wiki exactly, so help please

 

[Crabwhale]

It's not forbidden, you just can't do it lol

You can still message them on their walls though.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You can still message them on their walls though.

Which staff member should I contact for this case exactly?

 

[Crabwhale]

Eh, just grab a few from a random list.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This is a case of downscaling. They are not as strong as the dude realistically, however, they can still give somewhat of a fight. They are in the same general tier, but weaker. For these cases, we use a rating of "at most [insert tier]".

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They are in the same general tier, but weaker

Oberyn and other ASOIAF characters weaker than Gregor Clegane would be at how many joules in this case btw?

For these cases, we use a rating of "at most [insert tier]".

Okay

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oberyn and other ASOIAF characters weaker than Gregor Clegane would be at how many joules in this case btw?

We can't say.