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Prime Soul King Profile Additions

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I want to know why bleach novel is used for sk destroying planet sized hollow, but vsbattle does not use Boruto novel for Momoshiki collapsing a Star, and countless planets.

Because the Bleach Novel is canon as far as I'm concerned while with the Naruto one I have no idea
 
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I want to know why bleach novel is used for sk destroying planet sized hollow, but vsbattle does not use Boruto novel for Momoshiki collapsing a Star, and countless planets.

Because Momoshiki did that feat with various God trees, so it isn't his feat alone. Go make a thread for Naruto this isn't the place to talk about that.
 
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My position on the OP remains the same. Pretty much everything, good. The Schrifts, bad.

Maybe people can just list what they agree and disagree with so we can see what the general consensus is first. We can get back to the ad nauseum after that.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Does Yukio's skill as a hacker actually come from his Fullbring?
Read his backstory, he learned from the Internet because his parents didn't pay attention to him, so he made them go bankrupt and ran away.
 

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AppleLord said:
Read his backstory, he learned from the Internet because his parents didn't pay attention to him, so he made them go bankrupt and ran away.
Okay, so it's not part of his Fullbring? I'm asking because it is listed in the abilities at the top for the Fullbring section.
 
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First: updated the OP to give the Soul King Reality Warping for fundamentally altering reality on a multi-dimensional scale with just his own power (the genesis of the three worlds of Bleach), as well as Physics Manipulation due to Urahara outright saying that Fullbring has been used to alter the laws of physics.

Second:

Where We Stand

Schrifts

  • The argument to oppose Schrifts is that Yhwach himself had to learn how to create powers, and that he cannot 'create' or 'bestow' them to himself thus they should not apply
  • The above argument is denied on two fronts by my view: The Prime Soul King saw every future all the way until the end of Bleach, so would see Yhwach performing the feat of cultivating his inferior Almighty, and Yhwach objectively bestowed himself a Schrift at least once in Bleach (The Voice scan as presented by IMadeThis).
  • As a result, Schrifts ought to be included in the profile since they're a subset of an ability The Almighty grants
Fullbring

  • The argument to oppose Fullbring is claiming that the affinity with an object is what is necessary to create the Fullbring, thereby nullifying the Prime Soul King's ability to possess them
  • This argument is wrong due to the simple fact that it is outright stated several times in the novels that the shard and solely the shard of the Soul King is what enables a Fullbringer to have any powers whatsoever, thus everything performed by Fullbringers is an extension of a fragment of the Soul King's body's power; an argument would need to exist proving Fullbringers have latent power that can meaningfully alter the power granted to them somehow. The 'attachment' created is an extension of the base Soul Manipulation power Fullbringers possess, and nothing more, therefore belonging to the Soul King
Obviously I am bringing a biased point of view since I vehemently disagree with the above opposition to both Fullbring and Schrifts being removed from the future profile, but I'm still representing the arguments faithfully.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Okay, so it's not part of his Fullbring? I'm asking because it is listed in the abilities at the top for the Fullbring section.
That one belonged in the 'Future Sight' category, actually. But realistically it's super redundant and I'll remove it now
 

Damage3245

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> Yhwach objectively bestowed himself a Schrift at least once in Bleach (The Voice scan as presented by IMadeThis).

I wouldn't say objectively since it is never specifically clarified, referenced again or officially confirmed. It is an interpretation that the word voice being highlighted that way means it is a Schrift. Schrifts are also consistently written with a 'The ' in front of them from what I recall. 'The Almighty', 'The Balance', etc. Yhwach's "voice" is not.

> The Prime Soul King saw every future all the way until the end of Bleach, so would see Yhwach performing the feat of cultivating his inferior Almighty

Even if he did, that doesn't mean that the Soul King did bestow those abilities to himself. You're talking about something that the Soul King could hypothetically do and trying to apply all of those abilities to him as if he did do it, or he would do it.

It's impossible to say that it is in-character for the Soul King to look into the future, steal the idea for abilities, and then grant them to himself.
 
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For one: the scan presents it the same way it does every other Schrift in Bleach, per IMade's word and translation. Even typing it into google translate gives similar results. I am inclined, therefore, to go with his interpretation.

For two: it is an addition to his profile of abilities he has access to, the precise same as Yhwach's profile. I fail to see the relevance honestly, when it's a reality warper who can presumably just do everything in the profile with his The Almighty and near-omnipotence regardless, but for accuracy's sake I want to include them. I beleive you and I can see eye-to-eye in that regard, hopefully?

>It's impossible to say that it is in-character for the Soul King to look into the future, steal the idea for abilities, and then grant them to himself.

Good thing I'm merely asserting it to provably be within his power, then, and don't have to argue in-character for a characterless deity (couldn't resist the chance for some sarcasm here)
 

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> I beleive you and I can see eye-to-eye in that regard, hopefully?

I do agree in accuracy being the most important thing. But I also think that too much of this is speculative.

> Yhwach demonstrably has the power of every Sternritter Schrift on his profile

This bit still is wrong.

If it were accurate then Yhwach would have access to a passive spatial manipulation field around him that would redirect attacks from himself that he recognizes as coming from an enemy.

Yhwach has shown the ability to bestow abilities, that much is undeniably true. But him having free use of all Schrifts (before or after he bestows them) has always been extremely lacking in practical evidence.

I know which page is used to support the idea that Yhwach can use every single Schrift freely, but at best it merely implies it. It is not solid proof by itself.
 
That just means he has to activate them, the only evidence missing is him using them 1 by 1 by for you to accept it without doubt. By all statements and implications Yhwach has those abilities.
 
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Hmm, well it is within his power, provably, and perhaps we can just put 'Likely' for all the Schrifts then, yes?

Although apparently, as Sigurd brings, there's apparently evidence for him having Gremmy's The Visionary at least; Hikone in the recent novel is created from Gremmy's power, and a being attempting to absorb all Soul King Fragments from Hikone claims (Ikomikidomoe, Hikone's shikai) its intent to absorb said Fragments right before going straight for Hikone's head.

Would a 'Likely' or 'Can bestow to self' key be acceptable for Schrifts, in light of all evidence?

And I must say I agree with Sigurd; all evidence does point to even Yhwach having absorbed all those powers and he created them, as well as being able to bestow them to himself
 

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@Sigurd; I don't need to see him using them 1 by 1. But activating even a single one of them (aside from the debatable voice example) would be good.

A Possibly would be better for the Schrifts tbh - if it really does have to be accepted.
 
It's likely Kubo forgot about it or just ignored it, look at how he wrote Gremmy to be defeated. Kubo writes these unbeatable characters and give them ridiculous defeats. Even the damn Soul King let himself get fked for some reason unknown to us.

  • Yhwach never seeing his defeat by the arrow.
  • People randomly knowing stillsilver is his weakness, how in the world would they know this?
  • KS being placed on him to setup his defeat.
  • Yhwach ignoring the vision of his defeat because he though Jugram was giving him a joyful nightmare -.-.
 
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Kubo is inconsistent, but at least a few of those can be dismissed imho Sigurd:

Plot arrow: Okay yeah Kubo just fucked up here and there is not even a good estimation of why it occured.

Stillsilver awareness: Ryuken is a good surgeon and......there's no real reason he should know about it, thanks Kubo.

KS: Okay this one is legitimate, Aizen activated it and somehow KS is so strong it can affect Precognition

Defeat: Apparently Yhwach gets off on nightmares?
 
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@Damage

If all evidence points to their being accessible by a reality-warping god of the universe, I don't see what's so unlikely about inclusion of them under a 'Likely' key. As stated, a lot of the abilities are redundant regardless, and can be emulated with his powers anyway.
 
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Go with the Possibly option. He is stated to have innumerable abilities like Fullbringers and he has The A as well so there is certainly an argument to be made, we just can't say for certain.
 
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Possibly on all Schrifts, everything else is good to go then.

Any objections? I will absolutely let Damage speak his mind further since he seems to be the biggest opponent to the very idea of Schrifts, and I get the notion he wants them off of Yhwach's profile too based on this entire convo
 
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If there's precedence for it I have no clue why it should change in this current moment?
 

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On a separate point to the Schrifts, for the Fullbringer's unique abilities this is a summary of what they have from the Bleach wiki (Note that I'm not stating that the wiki is an objective source of fact, just that they provide a handy summary):

> Object Affinity: By developing an affinity for a particular object, a Fullbringer can alter its form, granting powers that vary greatly among individuals. This affinity can be defined by one's love for the object in question, or simply by an overall fondness for it.

For the Soul King to have the exact same abilities as them / use their abilities in the exact same way as they do, it seems to me that he would need to have the same affinity for particular objects unless it is stated somewhere that unique Fullbringer abilities can be used without the affinity for objects.

Since the Soul King has no known affinity for these particular objects, he should not have those listed Fullbringer abilities as being definitely confirmed on his profile.
 
This likely doesn't matter, Soul King himself is a fullbringer but he has no sort of object to channel his abilities that we know of. It's likely just a way that the new fullbringer's use to channel said power.

Soul King likely has these abilities at a base level, but the way he uses them is unknown since not much is known about him.
 
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The Bleach Wiki outright dismisses the novels and doesn't accept them as canon and therefore doesn't even believe their powers come from the Soul King shards, for what it's worth Damage. So I will handwave any objection based in the wiki and not engage it, no offense to you for utilizing an orindarily well-sourced resource for your argument.

That having been said: the 'object affinity' is soul manipulation of an object such that the latent power of the shard may materialize through the item, utilizing it as a 'focus', if you will.

Further, even if we accept the object affinity as necessary to develop unique powers which somehow are unrelated to the shard, even though the shard itself is what is creating these powers for a fact: the Soul King would see this in the future and know the destiny of each of his fragments, and be able to manipulate it, so it would, at the very minimum, be a 'Likely'.
 

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@Xulrev; the source being from the Bleach wiki is mostly irrelevant to my point. It is just summarizing what is already told to us in the manga itself.

So saying the objection is based on the wiki is wrong. It is based on the manga, which the wiki references.
 
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I did indeed engage your actual base point, damage, so I've no clue why you responded to the last significant point of my response truthfully.
 
Body Parts

I'm absolutely fine with giving him the powers of, well his ow left and right hands, especially since it is very explicitly stated that the power they display is intrinsic to their being since it is the arms themselves using that power.

In support of giving him a likely for The Visionary, though I feel the need to point out that if that ability was tied to the brain, then Hikone should have been able to display such an ability. The fact that he did not is an implication against. However, in the end I am willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

Now, in support of providing the basin reactive evolution and regen from The Miracle, but I will disagree with giving him anything more than a possibly for any additions that may, or may not have been developed by Gerard himself.

Schrifts

For now, I disagree heavily on giving the PSK schrifts, mostly because I don't believe that The Almighty is capable of creating anything at all (this might need its own thread...). I argue that Yhwach has only ever taken something already in existance, and about his fight with Ichibe, why does he say "once more ", if it is something he created.

There are also doubts about whether The Almighty can give him powers from the future, since if he could do that what is the point of his whole 'give and take' gimmick?

Fullbring

>The argument to oppose Fullbring is claiming that the affinity with an object is what is necessary to create the Fullbring, thereby nullifying the Prime Soul King's ability to possess them

I posed that as a response to this from IMade:

>Yes, exactly what I mean, the basic functions of Fullbringers is the ability to manipulate the souls of objects and they can put steroids on this with their desired object.

Because the only way this is relevant is if the power is coming from the object itself. Not that I believe this to be the truth.

>This argument is wrong due to the simple fact that it is outright stated several times in the novels that the shard and solely the shard of the Soul King is what enables a Fullbringer to have any powers whatsoever, thus everything performed by Fullbringers is an extension of a fragment of the Soul King's body's power; an argument would need to exist proving Fullbringers have latent power that can meaningfully alter the power granted to them somehow. The 'attachment' created is an extension of the base Soul Manipulation power Fullbringers possess, and nothing more, therefore belonging to the Soul King

This is explicitly untrue, what is correct is that it is outright stated several times in the novels that the shard of the SK is what turns them into Fullbringers. It is never stated that every Fullbring is provided by the shards themselves.

You are equalizing a change in characteristics to the abilities developed as a result of said change in characteristics. This is a fallacy.

If you(shard) somehow change a snake(regular human) into a bird(Fullbringer), you will give it the ability to fly, but the way(Fullbring) it flies is up to the bird(Fullbinger) not you(shard).

Sorry for the monster post
 

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@Xulrev; I just wanted to clear any potential confusion that I was relying solely on a fan wiki to justify my arguments. The purpose of referencing the wiki is simply to borrow their summary of what is stated in the manga.
 
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@Link

On Fullbring:

>To the Fullbringers themselves, just as the very concept defied logic, its significance was also incomprehensible; 'power' was bestowed to them from a reality which they had no say i

>to go into specifics, the unique inherent ability that is born by distorting the nature of an object they hold a particular attachment to through the power of Fullbring, that is surely something given by gods —— or perhaps it can even be described as the stuff of the gods in itself; rather than being an exaggerated notion, one might be able to say it partially rearranges the foundation on which the 'world's mode of existence' is built.

It's a unique, INHERENT ability, which manifests by manipulating an object. The ability in reliant on the shard's power. Nowhere does anybody in all of Bleach gain a power out of thin air. The ability belongs to the shard, and the Fullbringer manifests it. IMade also rebutted this point after you made it, with similar rationale. You would have to provide proof that Fullbringers can somehow create a power from nothing, which is a bit bizarre, to counteract the claim I have given for the SK having these abilities.
 
The first one is almost certainly referring to them becoming Fullbringers, not the Fullbring itself

The second holds a bit more weight, yes, though it reeks of flowery language, and again, could be referring to the fact that the shard is what allows them to do so. This singular statement is not enough to counteract the statements of other's like the words of Urahara I posted before.

That being said, that quotes does push me a little closer to being neutral on the topic, but I would like a response to a previous point:

Giriko just so happened to have bonded with a clock

Jackie just so happened to have a back story about keeping her boots shiny

Yukio just so happened to want to immerse himself entirely into his 'virtual reality'
 
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Having your power seek out an attachment to something it has an affinity with is not so unusual, and all Fulllbringers equally just so happe to lead tragic lives that lead to their attachment with their specific object.

The shards are stated to act like a Hogyoku of sorts, leading them to their power. I do not believe it to be unrealistic to point out how the 'coincidence' of attaching to their specific item for their specific power is reasonable.
 
I find it to be more reasonable to assume that it is, in fact, the Fullbringer's feelings and perpective on the object in question that guides the path their Fullbrings take, and this fact that this fits with the whole 'manifest their desires' theme is more support for this argument.
 
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Well here's the quote:

>Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Rei-o would have; Ginjo had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a Shinigami; if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the Hogyoku. A device that manifests the desires of those around it; something that could change the world. The Hogyoku. It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Rei-o acts as its substitute and activates Fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.

So taking it all together:

1. The Shard is the progenitor of all Fullbringer's powers

2. The Shard acts as a subtitute Hogyoku of sorts, which leads them to their object of attachment

3. The Shard is outright stated to activate Fullbring and turn that object of attachment into a power of reality

In short, the Shard is a pseudo-reality manipulation device that creates the power the specific 'bringer manifests when they find their object of attachment, which the Shard itself helps guide them to in my opinion.

This theory fits with how every. single. Fullbringer. ever. just so happens to have a tragic life fraught with grief and death that just so happens to lead them to the perfect object for their power.
 
1. The Shard is the progenator of all of a Fullbringer's basic abilities.

2. The Shard acts as a subtitute Hogyoku of sorts

Absolutely

which leads them to their object of attachment.

Not what it said

3. The Shard lets them activate Fullbring,

OK

and turn that object of attachment into a power of reality

No, "turn attachment into an ability". it is the attachment itself, meaning it manifests the Fullbringer's attachment, what they feel about the object, that gets turned into a power.

I bring you back to my fallacy point, just because the Shard helps the Fullbringer activate their own ability does not mean the ability activated is innherent to the Shard itself.

>This theory fits with how every. single. Fullbringer. ever. just so happens to have a tragic life fraught with grief and death that just so happens to lead them to the perfect object for their power.

Giriko's watch is a famiy heirloom

Jackie's boots were given to her

Yukio could fit though, I give you that.
 
Just as possible that the ability is a power uniquely inherent to the individual.

For example, the zanpakuto born from a shinigami is unique to themselves, the form a hollow takes and the abilities they develop are unique to themselves, there are even quincies who held their own unique qualities before Yhwach reached them, Uryu, and Askin to highlight.

Why is it beyond the realm of possibility that Fullbringers can develop their own unique ability?
 
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@Sigurd

Yes the SK explicitly guided Ichigo with his own will.

@link

Its beyond possibility because 'their own power' would exist only due to the Shard fragment. The entirety of their power is borne from the Shard.

The only unique Quincies that existed, I may add, were....also Soul King parts, ironically enough on that point. But also none of the aforementioned analogies hold water since their power is not borne of a Shard.
 
>The entirety of their power is borne from the Shard.

This is exactly what I am disputing, so using this as a justification is backwards.

- Shards must be the source for the entirety of a Fullbringer's powers because Fullbringers cannot develop their own unique powers.

- Fullbringers are unable to develop their own unique powers because the Shards are the source for the entirety of their powers.

This reasoning is circular, you can't use one to justify the other when neither point has been proven beyond doubt.

>But also none of the aforementioned analogies hold water since their power is not borne of a Shards

Which means that it is possible to develope an ability independant ot the Shards, thank you. Keep in mind the difference between being the catalyst of an ability, and being the source which is what the shard is in Ginjo's quote. And like I said before, both of the other quotes are vague enough that they could be referring to either, though I give that, the second one seems to imply the latter.

Also, I don't doubt you, you've been reputable so far. But can you source those quotes? I'm guessing they aren't from CFYOW. I don't remember seeing those.
 
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@Link

It's not circular, it's what is clearly stated and supported by what I've already quoted and given evidence for. The Shard is their power source, that's a fact.

Also....yes? Of course Shinigami have powers independent of the Shards. I didn't claim that. Shinigami gain power from their Zanpakuto spirit and from manipulating Reiryoku into magical spells. Hollows gain power by evolving into a new state after a Menos reaches a critical mass point and condenses into a new form made of all the souls fusing. Quincies gain power by manipulating Reishi in the air into weapons. Fullbringers gain power by being imbued with a Soul King fragment.

Literally nothing, anywhere, in Bleach ever 'just develops' an ability out of thin air. It all comes from somewhere. There's zero precedence whatsoever for any theory of 'Maybe Fullbringers just develop an ability' in the entirety of Bleach even remotely alluded to, which is why I stand firm by my point still. The only point you could have had would be Orihime and Chad, but they're also....Fullbringers. Your idea needs strong evidence to even entertain as an objection, essentially, whereas even a weak argument in my favor is still a reasonable argument that is supported in-verse.

Also they're from the same chapter I link under the 'Fullbringers' section in my OP, the next sentence after what I quote.
 
Sekkonds. said:
> that profile made 3 hours ago

DefiniTely a troll
Nah my man not a Troll. Just see the super errors made in this bs biased scaling. Bleach verse gets upgrades but Naruto verse doesn't ?

For instance Soul King was upgraded to Multi Solar System Level for creating multiple stars

Kaguya created dimensions which two have confirmed day and night cycle possessing a Moon and a Sun / Star. Instead of upgraded to Star level at least dwarf star, she is calced at Large Planet Level lol. Let someone in bleach create a dimension with a Star and moon and they would get a super boost😂 https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_King

Senna stop two planets from merging. Toneri who is much weaker than Kaguya, can move the Moon with Tenseigan. Bleach is favored more on this site.
 
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@Yella

Naruto has nothing to do this thread. If you believe Naruto can be upgraded go make your CRT and get it accpeted with actual evidence and not just because an unrelated verse got an upgrade.

On topic, Fullbrings are most likely abilities belonging to SK as alluded to by the innumerable powers. If he only got the base powers, he would hardly be described as such when the basic abilities is pulling on the soul of objects for a small range of effects eg elastic ground or air to speed amp. Why reference the race with the greatest variety of powers if it was only to possess a variant a power possessed by 2 of his other 3 races. May as well just be a pure Quincy at that point.
 
@Xulrev

>It's not circular, it's what is clearly stated and supported by what I've already quoted and given evidence for. The Shard is their power source, that's a fact.

Again:

- Ginjo's quote: Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment

He only explains the Shard's function as a catalyst for the Fullbringer's own power. He does not say that the Fullbring comes from the Shard. In fact he explicitly states that the power that is developed is reliant on what the individual's attachment is.

- Urahara's quote: By controlling Reishi which dwells in matter

Refers to the powers developed from Fullbring as their very own, while this could be treating the Shard as an intrinsic part of the Fullbringer, there is more of an implication that the power is dependant on the individual.

- Source needed 1: To the Fullbringers themselves, just as the very concept defied logic

This quote is pointless as it makes absolutely no distiction between the basic abilities of Fullbringers, and the Fullbrings they use. Meaning either is equallly likely

- Source needed 2: to go into specifics, the unique inherent ability

Refers to the abilities achieved through Fullbring and related to the Shard, possibly flowery language to emphasize the absurdity of Fullbring powers, but there is more implication that the Fullbrings come from the Shards.

So we have a quote useless to both sides, one quote that could go either way, one quote that near-directly states that individual decides the power, and one quote that near-directly states that the Shard decides the power.

That makes thing essentially an even split, which means that no, the Shard being the power source is not a proven fact, therefore the reasoning is, in fact, circular.

Now I'm a bit confused:

>Of course Shinigami have powers independent of the Shards. I didn't claim that. Shinigami gain power from their Zanpakuto spirit and from manipulating Reiryoku into magical spells. Hollows gain power by evolving into a new state after a Menos reaches a critical mass point and condenses into a new form made of all the souls fusing.

>Literally nothing, anywhere, in Bleach ever 'just develops' an ability out of thin air. It all comes from somewhere.


So where do the powers of a shinigami come from?

Also, Adjucas are born when a single soul achieves dominance over the rest of the souls making up a Gillian, and absorbs them. The abilities they gain are, however, unique to them personally.

The quotes I'm trying to find are not in that chapter.
 
@Anon

Or it was referring to the broken abilities of the Almighty,

Or he has an OP unique Fullbring of his own.

Also, Ichibe's info dump strongly implied that the SK was not the first Fullbringer, so...

Nvm, it was Tokinada that implies that:

"The world did not always have its current form. Without a boundary separating life and death; within this chaotic world.... at first, there stood the original guardian; between Hollow and Man. Quincy, Shinigami, Fullbringer... An existence who could be called the progenitor of all three.."

Laughing heartily, Tokinada went on,

"It was a Quincy as well as a Shinigami; also a human. A symbol of hope governing the chaotic world with innumerable abilities like that of Fullbringers."
 
"Also, Ichibe's info dump strongly implied that the SK was not the first Fullbringer, so..."

This is wrong, he's the progenitor of all 3 species, he's quite literally the 1st being to ever showcase powers. And eventually other people such as the ancestors and Ichibe developed powers. Heck all of Ichibe's powers are from the SK.
 
You are correct about me being wrong about what Ichibe impies, apologies

However:

'>This is wrong, he's the progenitor of all 3 species, he's quite literally the 1st being to ever showcase powers. And eventually other people such as the ancestors and Ichibe developed powers. Heck all of Ichibe's powers are from the SK.'

Ichibe never actually states that the SK appeared first.

"That's right. Others; with special powers, including myself; appeared, but it is fair to say that the Rei-o stood out; his powers very close to omnipotence and omniscience."

He also never says that his powers came from the SK, only that they also appeared.
 
his immortality (tied to Reiokyu), his conceptual name ability (stated SK granted him the name of the monk who names thus givng him the power to speak true names), his very body comes from the SK via the oken.

And dude, he's the progenitor that mean's he's the 1st. If you want to be really technical about it humans were shown to exsit before him and hollows. But nothing proves this since he was born from the world itself like magic.
 
His resurrection ability yes, conceptual name maybe, the last part is only true now.

And he had some special power before the SK enhanced him, or the statement I posted above wouldn't make sense.
 
And it was Tokinada who said it, and not even explicitly. If the SK was absolutely directly the pprogenitor, I'm sure he would have just said that. More likely, though at the same level of speculation, is that the massive releasing of reishi from the hollow caused more and more people to develop their own abilities. So in that way, you could say he was the progenitor of those three races.

All speculation I say. And Ichibe having black is pretty likely.
 
Link Eternal said:
And it was Tokinada who said it, and not even explicitly. If the SK was absolutely directly the pprogenitor, I'm sure he would have just said that. More likely, though at the same level of speculation, is that the massive releasing of reishi from the hollow caused more and more people to develop their own abilities. So in that way, you could say he was the progenitor of those three races.

All speculation I say. And Ichibe having black is pretty likely.
This is fan-theory and head canon to the highest degree.

You have to ignore lore and the passage to even come up with this.

Fullbringers get their powers from Soul King fragments. He's the progenitor of Fullbringers.

The Shinigami spawned from the Soul King instilling the Soul Cycle and making a world for souls. He's the progenitor of their race.

Quincy stem from Yhwach who is the Soul King's son. he's the progenitor of Quincys.
 
Lol you act like I just declared my on-the-spot theory as canon.

There is a reason I said speculation. The SK is not the source of absolutely everything in the verse.

If shinigami only spawned with the instillation of the Soul Cycle, then what were the ancestors, who had powers of their own.

The SK was a Fullbringer himself. so clearly something in that chaotic world made it possible to become a Fullbringer.

You are correct about the Quincy

Give an explicit statement that the SK was born from the world itself, rather having been a human that was altered in some way.

Because,"could be called' is not, an absolute "yes".
 
DazaiJisatsuManiac said:
When Ginjo stole Ichigo's Fullbring (his Shard probably) he was able to give his ability to all other So it kinda shows that it comes from shard itself Cause other wise it would have been a simple boost which is not what Yukio said when he got it
....
 
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Link Eternal said:
Lol you act like I just declared my on-the-spot theory as canon.

There is a reason I said speculation. The SK is not the source of absolutely everything in the verse.

If shinigami only spawned with the instillation of the Soul Cycle, then what were the ancestors, who had powers of their own.

The SK was a Fullbringer himself. so clearly something in that chaotic world made it possible to become a Fullbringer.

You are correct about the Quincy

Give an explicit statement that the SK was born from the world itself, rather having been a human that was altered in some way.

Because,"could be called' is not, an absolute "yes".
The ancestors were beings that would later become Shinigami as Ichibei says in the backstory. Shinigami wasn't a thing until the Soul King arrived.
 
Actually, is talking about interpreting the origins derailing this thread? If so, should I post my answer on the General Discussion, or somewhere else?

@Dazai

>When Ginjo stole Ichigo's Fullbring (his Shard probably) he was able to give his ability to all other So it kinda shows that it comes from shard itself Cause other wise it would have been a simple boost which is not what Yukio said when he got it.

I'm not sure what you mean to say by this. This proves that the Fullbring depends on the individual, since if the power came from the Shard, there would have been no need to push Ichigo to awaken his Fullbring, they could have just stolen the Shard from the start.

In addition. Ichigo is still a Fullbringer, and he even still has his Fullbring it simply merged with his shinigami power . The fact that you have to add a 'probably' there means it is a guess, and could just as easily be incorrect.
 
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Except Ichigo's shard wasn't active. There is no reason to assume that Ginjo can just steal inactive ones when the entire plan was to train Ichigo to activate and complete it so that they could obtain his power.

That scan also doesn't prove Ichigo is still a Fullbringer. Its Ginjo theorizing why Ichigo is stronger, something that ha s a number of valid reasons.

1. Maybe he still has Fullbring and it fused with his new Shinigami powers (your belief).

2. The shard was taken and he got his powers purely from the dozens of lieutenant and captain level shinigami charging up that sword compared to just Rukia's fodder power level.

3. His soul is simply stronger as a whole instead of the ass human level he was for 17 months due to Ginjo training it.

4. Fullbring's are based on Hollow reiatsu and thus training that makes Zangetsu stronger than before so the Old Man can't restrain as much power, hence the new Zanpakuto.

5. His powers (the Zangetsu's) that had been condensing in one point of his body like Isshin's did, regaining its strength in a dormant state. Having his shard stolen would make no difference to his Zanpakuto as it has nothing to do with his Shinigami/Hollow and Quincy powers so the new influx of Shinigami reiatsu just kickstarted that much like Rukia's unlocked his own BoS.
 
@Anon

Except it is not that the Shard that is activating, the closest supporting quoote is that the Shard responds when introduced to Hollow reiryoku with the child in developement, and that only refers to the birth of a Fullbringer

When it comes to Fullbring, it is stated that it is the Shard that activates the individual's Fullbring, not that the Shard is becoming active.

@Dazai

Then why would the scan highlight alterations made to Ichigo's design that look suspiciously smilar to the armor he used against Tsukishima
 
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I think this is all pretty well grasping at explanations at this point; the actual proof we have, and all canon evidence, point to Shards being the soul(heh) source of a Fullbringer's abilities.

Hell, the fact that their Shard can be stolen and then they lose all their Fullbring powers is proof of that! How on Earth can anybody even begin to deny how simplistic the logic is there? Losing the Shard=Losing their Fullbring; if they had obtained 'their own unique power' it wouldn't disappear with the Shard's removal.

The abilities get added to the profile, The Visionary is a 'Likely', and Schrift abilities are a 'Possibly' with a key indicating The Almighty allows for power bestowal to one's self, all things that are supported heavily by canon proof and require theorizing to even begin to dismiss.

I do believe we have entertained all argumentation long enough to postpone creating this profile properly, yes?
 
>Hell, the fact that their Shard can be stolen and then they lose all their Fullbring powers is proof of that! How on Earth can anybody even begin to deny how simplistic the logic is there? Losing the Shard=Losing their Fullbring; if they had obtained 'their own unique power' it wouldn't disappear with the Shard's removal.

1. Prove that a Fullbringer has had their shard stolen

2. Prove that they lose all their Fullbring powers when the only scan of it implies that Ichigo still has his. Also, puzzle this one out for me.

> I think this is all pretty well grasping at explanations at this point; the actual proof we have, and all canon evidence, point to Shards being the soul(heh) source of a Fullbringer's abilities.

And again, because there was no response to this one:

- Ginjo's quote: Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment

He only explains the Shard's function as a catalyst for the Fullbringer's own power. He does not say that the Fullbring comes from the Shard. In fact he explicitly states that the power that is developed is reliant on what the individual's attachment is.

- Urahara's quote: By controlling Reishi which dwells in matter

Refers to the powers developed from Fullbring as their very own, while this could be treating the Shard as an intrinsic part of the Fullbringer, there is more of an implication that the power is dependant on the individual.

- Source needed 1: To the Fullbringers themselves, just as the very concept defied logic

This quote is pointless as it makes absolutely no distiction between the basic abilities of Fullbringers, and the Fullbrings they use. Meaning either is equallly likely

- Source needed 2: to go into specifics, the unique inherent ability

Refers to the abilities achieved through Fullbring and related to the Shard, possibly flowery language to emphasize the absurdity of Fullbring powers, but there is more implication that the Fullbrings come from the Shards.

So we have a quote useless to both sides, one quote that could go either way, one quote that near-directly states that individual decides the power, and one quote that near-directly states that the Shard decides the power.

That makes thing essentially an even split, which means that no, the Shard being the power source is not a proven fact.
 
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@Link

1. The novels have Shards taken several times, for one such example. It's Tokinada's entire plan, in fact, to coalesce the Shards into a new Soul King being via Hikone/Ikomikidomoe; stealing a Fullbring=stealing the shard.

2. Ichigo did not retain his ability to Fullbring, Ginjo was inquiring as to if the Fullbring training improved his physicals.


All the rest has been addressed by other proof, really. The failure to grasp the context is really just draining my desire to keep reiterating the same things in different ways.
 
1. This is not what I asked.

So he wanted to make a patchwork SK, ok. How does this support Shard=Fullbring.

2. You must be using a more precise translation to claim that because the word 'training' is no where in that scan.

Then let me clear up what my problem is since I seem to be coming up short:

The 'proof' you have provided for you point leaves room for interpretation.

What I mean by that is:

If I were to take the literal meaning behind the statement you have given, there's a problem, because the literal meaning is directly contradicted by the literal meaning of another statement.

>All the rest has been addressed by other proof, really.

I am asking for this other proof, as it is not in this thread

Because you couldn't be referring to the claim that characters in Bleach can't manifest their own unique abilities, seeing as shinigami do, hollows do, and some quincy do, Uryu is not a SK part, nor is Askin a SK part.
 
Ginjo says " Fullbring i gave him........" and we know Ginjo did not give him Fullbring but he gave him training for it. Kinda tells he is talking about training
 
And a scan before Ginjo is talking about upgrade in physical power and most of the Fullbring training especially last part of it was physical training So of course it would up his physical power
 
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I am really wondering what the point in bringing up Uryu and Askin is.

Shinigami don't manifest unique abilities without a Zanpakuto to imprint their reiatsu into.

Hollows are notably different from other spiritual races so they aren't a proper example as the super Menos was considered an enemy by the world, no other race is missing their own heart by default, need to deal with constant hunger to fill an all consuming hole, cannibilize and fuse to evolve etc etc.
 
@Dazai

"The Fullbring I gave him"

No, Ginjo did not literally give Ichigo Fullbring. However, he is the entire reason Ichigo developed his own so.

Also, you still haven't refuted the pieces of Fullbring armor on him.

@Anon

Asuachi are blank slates colored by the unique and original abilities of the shinigami that bond with them. The unique abilities manifested by the Zanpakuto originate from the shinigami themselves, which is my entire point.

Uryu had the basis of the Anti-thesis within him before Yhwach brought it to the surface, it is how he survived Auswhalen (I don't think I spelled that right), Askin was already difficult to kill , these are my points, Yhwach did not create these abilities from nothing, they were already present inside of them. Meaning they posessed their own innate unique abilities.

Hollows do have different characteristics from the other races. This does not change the fact that they are still Human Souls, and will return to being pluses when slain by a Zanpakuto. Thereby the abilities they develop come from the Human Soul, bringing them up is valid.
 
We litreally see Ginjo sucking Ichigo dry of fullbring and he mention's it on 1 or 2 occasions again that he drained all of it. As for Armor it could have been extra added after multiple reiatsu added to his own
 
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Okay, for the record, no Uryu did not have the Anti-Thesis before Yhwach granted him the ability, he outright and explicitly on-panel gives him that power.

I have zero idea why Askin was brought up? Askin was selected to be on the Schutzstaffel because his ability, The Deathdealing, that Yhach granted him makes him impossible to kill.

Further, Asauchi are imprinted upon by Shinigami, yes. But it's the Zanpakuto that has an ability, not the Shinigami. The sword has a power, not the Shinigami. A Shinigami does not create an ability out of nowhere, it has to be forged. Look at Oetsu and Ichigo, for example. Oetsu outright has to forge his Zanpakuto. Ichibe has to name the Zanpakuto and their abilities.

Hollows themselves do not have abilities. They only have abilities when they coalesce into a giant hybridized form and evolve via unknown means, so the hypothesis that it comes from the Human Soul is complete headcanon as of now.

To defeat the idea that Tokinada Tsunayashiro outright tells us, that of Shards being the source of Fullbringer power, we need to engage headcanon that is not proven.

By application of Occam's Razor, my assertion would be correct.
 
Xulrev said:
I think this is all pretty well grasping at explanations at this point; the actual proof we have, and all canon evidence, point to Shards being the soul(heh) source of a Fullbringer's abilities.

Hell, the fact that their Shard can be stolen and then they lose all their Fullbring powers is proof of that! How on Earth can anybody even begin to deny how simplistic the logic is there? Losing the Shard=Losing their Fullbring; if they had obtained 'their own unique power' it wouldn't disappear with the Shard's removal.

The abilities get added to the profile, The Visionary is a 'Likely', and Schrift abilities are a 'Possibly' with a key indicating The Almighty allows for power bestowal to one's self, all things that are supported heavily by canon proof and require theorizing to even begin to dismiss.

I do believe we have entertained all argumentation long enough to postpone creating this profile properly, yes?
Yes,add the abilities please
 
Yes on panel, Yhwach tell Uryu that his power will begin to awaken, the same power that allowed him to survive ,

Asuachi are blank The Zanpakuto's abilities and spirit are both born from the shinigami.

Hollows can indeed posess special characteristics before they enter the menos stage, see just about every hollow Ichigo encounters at the start of the series.

When does Tokinada tell us this?
 
Toshiro was unconsciously freezing his grandmother in his sleep before he even got a zanpakuto, also iirc it was stated in the novels that the schrift allows the sternritter to awaken their powers it doesn't give them the power itself
 
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At this point everyone has agreed to the addition for the SK with a "Likely" for Gremmy powers and "Possibly" for Sternritters powers. Only Link who has refused to agree with anything despite multiple quotes stating the Fullbringer powers come from the SK's shards and is simply dragging this on longer then it should be.

I think we should get this added and be done with.
 
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I think that one may be a stretch; mimihagi simply halted the progression of Ukitake's disease.

But, I think everything should be good to start applying now, yes?
 
Ehm I don't see how this is a stretch.

It's word for word the ability description.

Also you cannot add anything until a discusison mod or admin looks over the thread.
 
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Correct; I meant having one look in on the thread since everything is discussed, moreso.

But it seems a stretch since the 'blessing' bestowed is the causal stagnation. I guess technically it's just a subset of the power, just given new wording?
 
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DazaiJisatsuManiac said:
Aayeee so i just re read TLA arc and apparently yukio and sun and moon in his dimension does this mean prime sk can make sun, moon and such very easily?
I believe it's either outlier/fake sky but it won't affect SK even if it was true
 
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Xulrev said:
I think this is all pretty well grasping at explanations at this point; the actual proof we have, and all canon evidence, point to Shards being the soul(heh) source of a Fullbringer's abilities.

Hell, the fact that their Shard can be stolen and then they lose all their Fullbring powers is proof of that! How on Earth can anybody even begin to deny how simplistic the logic is there? Losing the Shard=Losing their Fullbring; if they had obtained 'their own unique power' it wouldn't disappear with the Shard's removal.

The abilities get added to the profile, The Visionary is a 'Likely', and Schrift abilities are a 'Possibly' with a key indicating The Almighty allows for power bestowal to one's self, all things that are supported heavily by canon proof and require theorizing to even begin to dismiss.

I do believe we have entertained all argumentation long enough to postpone creating this profile properly, yes?
Can we finally apply this?it's been 5 days and i need to make a spite thread
 
He should have creation also and the resistance of conceptual comme from himself and I think whe should give to every part of him because of the novel thing
 
Damage3245 said:
Huh. Can you post scans of that? ^
Sun in Dimension that Yukio Made for Chad https://www.***********.net/bleach/449/11

Moon in dimesnion where Tsukishima and Byakuya fought https://www.***********.net/bleach/464/16 https://www.***********.net/bleach/468

Moon In dimesnion in which Moeh and ikkaku fought https://www.***********.net/bleach/465/2
 
Also yukio was able to make monsters will it be applied to PSK profile too? https://www.***********.net/bleach/466/12 https://www.***********.net/bleach/466/14
 
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