Posible downgrade for Tartaros Arc Sting and Rogue

[Siegfried10]

At the moment Tartaros Arc Sting and Rogue are listed at Tier 7-A, and i have two things to object here.

1- Sting and Rogue with this are considered to be above characters like Natsu (Base and Raienryu) or Erza (Base and Strongest Armors), which lets be fair, doesnt make any sense. Back in the Daimatou Arc the Twin Dragons were inferior to Base Natsu (even while using Dragon Force), who even at his fullest its inferior to Minerva and Base Erza. Minerva even when she got a PU its still inferior to Erza in Tartaros btw. The idea of the Twin Dragons surpassing not only Natsu, but also Erza in such a short timeframe (while not even using Dragon Force) when even Minerva couldnt, sounds ridiculous and is not what the manga showns.

The manga still portrays the Twin Dragon to be inferior to Base Natsu in the Tartaros Arc. While fighting Mard Geer in a 2 vs 1 they were unable to injure him, while Natsu fighting alone was able to injure him and even when they all teamed up it was because of Natsu that they started connecting their attacks and causing harm.

2- My second issue is that Sting and Rogue defeating Jiemma shouldnt be used for their normal scaling. They were been totally stomped by him, and the Twin Dragons shouldnt be stronger than Natsu who at the same time is weaker than Erza and Kyouka, who Jiemma should surpass as he is stronger than the Nine Demon Gates. Unison Raid shouldnt be enough to overcome this difference in raw strenght as that did not work with Base Natsu on the Daimatou, and the difference between Natsu and the Twins wasnt as big as the one with Jiemma.

So based on the above i have a proposition to make: Scaling Tartaros Arc Sting and Rogue to Base Natsu, as they are potrayed as comparable but somewhat inferior to him during pretty much all the arc. The feat of defeating Jiemma could be given to an enhanced by emotions form, as they suddenly showed strenght far above their normal levels and just after giving a nakama power speech.

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Hmmmm, this is an interesting point, but Base Natsu was still very inconsistent in this fight to begin with, his Lightning Fire Dragon Mode couldn’t scratch a serious Base Mard Geer, but his Base Form could tango with his Etherious Form

This Natsu is also amped up on emotions right after finding out Igneel is alive, point is that Base Natsu here is a bit weird, so using him as a benchmark for why Sting and Rogue can’t be this strong doesn’t mean much

 

[Zackra1799]

1- Sting and Rogue with this are considered to be above characters like Natsu (Base and Raienryu) or Erza (Base and Strongest Armors), which lets be fair, doesnt make any sense. Back in the Daimatou Arc the Twin Dragons were inferior to Base Natsu (even while using Dragon Force), who even at his fullest its inferior to Minerva and Base Erza. Minerva even when she got a PU its still inferior to Erza in Tartaros btw. The idea of the Twin Dragons surpassing not only Natsu, but also Erza in such a short timeframe (while not even using Dragon Force) when even Minerva couldnt, sounds ridiculous and is not what the manga showns.

This is both an argument from incredulity and completely irrelevant as Sting gained enough power to oneshot Human Jienma who is above the likes of Minerva.

The manga still portrays the Twin Dragon to be inferior to Base Natsu in the Tartaros Arc. While fighting Mard Geer in a 2 vs 1 they were unable to injure him, while Natsu fighting alone was able to injure him and even when they all teamed up it was because of Natsu that they started connecting their attacks and causing harm.

This is also wrong given String and Rogue were capable of taking many hits from both Mard Gear and a Bloodlusted Demon Jienma who both overpowered Emotions amped Natsu and damaged Devil Slayer Gray who are both 7-As and is stated to be far above 7-Bs, so scaling them to 7-B really doesn't make any sense as they would have been oneshot by Demon Jienma otherwise. So if Sting and Rogue were really only Base Natsu Level they would have been oneshot by the first hit from Demon Jienma as he was out for the kill but we clearly see that they can take many of his attacks and keep fighting without issue despite already battleing Mard Gear, a 7-A, for a significant period of time, so one could argue that they were weakened in their fight with Jienma.

2- My second issue is that Sting and Rogue defeating Jiemma shouldnt be used for their normal scaling. They were been totally stomped by him, and the Twin Dragons shouldnt be stronger than Natsu who at the same time is weaker than Erza and Kyouka, who Jiemma should surpass as he is stronger than the Nine Demon Gates. Unison Raid shouldnt be enough to overcome this difference in raw strenght as that did not work with Base Natsu on the Daimatou, and the difference between Natsu and the Twins wasnt as big as the one with Jiemma.

They are weaker, but a Unison raid is literally 1+1=2 it combines the power of both mages into a single attack which doubles their power individually. Given that a Unison Raid was needed to beat Demon Jienma we scale Sting and Rouge individually at roughly 1/2 Demon Jienma. This is once again an argument from incredulity.

So based on the above i have a proposition to make: Scaling Tartaros Arc Sting and Rogue to Base Natsu, as they are potrayed as comparable but somewhat inferior to him during pretty much all the arc. The feat of defeating Jiemma could be given to an enhanced by emotions form, as they suddenly showed strenght far above their normal levels and just after giving a nakama power speech.

They were also likly heavily amped by emotions as soon as they arrived given they were there to save Minerva a member of their guild so them being stronger than Base Natsu isn't inconsistent or unbelievable in the slightest, and as Mitch said scaling to Natsu also isn't that reliable as his power fluctuated alot in this arc with the emotion amps.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Hmmmm, actually I can get behind the downgrade for one simple reason, it all rests on Devil Slayer Gray scaling to Base Mard Geer, Devil Slayer Gray is the source of the them scaling to 7-A, but it can actually be refuted that Devil Slayer Gray scales to Base Mard Geer at all.

Remember that Gray has Devil Slayer Magic, meaning every single one of his attacks have Durability Negation and is doing extra damage to Mard Geer, and we see that he is only taking minor damage from Devil Slayer Gray. And the damage levels don't even matter, since we know all these attacks are only doing so much damage because Gray has the advantage of Devil Slayer Magic. We don't see Devil Slayer Gray physically brawl or overpower Base Mard Geer in a head on clash. So saying Devil Slayer Gray is comparable to Base Mard Geer in AP isn't confirmed at all.

As well, Base Natsu, Sting, and Rogue only really fight a casual Base Mard Geer who isn't taking them seriously. Sting even says he isn't nearly as tough as Natsu, directly comparing this Mard Geer who isn't trying to the Natsu they lost to. Now Base Natsu is able to pressure this casual Base Mard Geer and give him a bruise, but we see later that the second Base Mard Geer gets serious, he finesses Base Natsu, Sting, and Rogue completely, with Lightning Fire Dragon Mode Natsu not being able to hurt Base Mard Geer at all. Now we know Base Natsu manages to kinda fight Etherious Mard Geer in their fight, but he really doesn't do any notable damage at all, Etherious Mard Geer is completely untouched from his and Devil Slayer Gray's attacks at the end of the fight.

Now Base Natsu, Devil Slayer Gray, Sting, and Rogue all take many hits from Mard Geer and keep fighting, but I can just chalk that up to them having good stamina and endurance. You can be weaker than someone and continue fighting after taking hits from them, I mean we see that many times in Fairy Tail. Base Natsu surving many hits from both Jellal and Laxus, who completely outclassed him, Team Natsu surviving many hits from Hades, who completely outclasses them, Sting and Rogue taking many hits from Base Natsu, who completely outclasses them, and all the Dragon Slayers taking hits from Acnologia, who completely outclasses them. This is very consistent, they can take the hits, but wouldn't fully scale to them. I mean Base Natsu is basically the king of continuing to fight and take hits from people who are far stronger than him, I mean he does this against Jellal, Laxus, Zero, Hades, Future Rogue, Mard Geer, and Zeref himself. They are all clearly stronger than him, but he keeps fighting because he's a stamina God. Devil Slayer Gray scaling to Base Mard Geer is unreliable due to them never having any direct confrontation of AP and Gray really only doing notable damage because of Devil Slayer advantage. I mean we're not scaling Base Wendy to an Eclipse Dragon just because she can hurt them with Dragon Slayer Magic.

So the changes that would be implemented are as such. Devil Slayer Gray just becomes a higher level of 7-B than he was before and everyone who scales to him also becomes 7-B. This means Tartaros Arc Sting and Rogue go back to being 7-B, scaling below Devil Slayer Gray and Base Natsu, but still being on that level. Natsu loses his Enhanced by Emotions key since as I said above, his feats can now be applied to his Base Form. Demon Jiemma still becomes 7-B since he is stronger than Human Form and has feats against both Base Natsu and Devil Slayer Gray. This also means Etherious Form Mard Geer also loses his 7-A+ rating due to him no longer tanking a combined attack from two 7-A's.

That is where I stand now, Devil Slayer Gray not being 7-A is consistent with how he is compared to Base Natsu

 

[KingTempest]

Damn

With Mitch's additional explanation this does make sense

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah I was gonna call the OP a bit of an argument from incredulity, but with the context Mitch added I’m in agreement with the OP.

So would they merely scale above the prior keys or is there another chain they scale to?

 

[TheForgottenKing]

I agree with Mitch he made valid points

 

[theultimate5105]

I agree with Mitch

 

[Theendzero13]

I agree with mitch

 

[Siegfried10]

This is both an argument from incredulity and completely irrelevant as Sting gained enough power to oneshot Human Jienma who is above the likes of Minerva.

Sting defeated Jiemma with an emotion amp, which are temporary power ups (see Natsu, Erza and pretty much everyone). He claims to have retained that power, but never actually proved it, so i wouldnt consider it valid due to the nature of the power up itself. Though, you could argue he was boosted by emotions during the battle royale as Lecter's life was still in danger. But in the end is still an emotion boost and not hin normal power.

Hmmmm, actually I can get behind the downgrade for one simple reason, it all rests on Devil Slayer Gray scaling to Base Mard Geer, Devil Slayer Gray is the source of the them scaling to 7-A, but it can actually be refuted that Devil Slayer Gray scales to Base Mard Geer at all.

Remember that Gray has Devil Slayer Magic, meaning every single one of his attacks have Durability Negation and is doing extra damage to Mard Geer, and we see that he is only taking minor damage from Devil Slayer Gray. And the damage levels don't even matter, since we know all these attacks are only doing so much damage because Gray has the advantage of Devil Slayer Magic. We don't see Devil Slayer Gray physically brawl or overpower Base Mard Geer in a head on clash. So saying Devil Slayer Gray is comparable to Base Mard Geer in AP isn't confirmed at all.

As well, Base Natsu, Sting, and Rogue only really fight a casual Base Mard Geer who isn't taking them seriously. Sting even says he isn't nearly as tough as Natsu, directly comparing this Mard Geer who isn't trying to the Natsu they lost to. Now Base Natsu is able to pressure this casual Base Mard Geer and give him a bruise, but we see later that the second Base Mard Geer gets serious, he finesses Base Natsu, Sting, and Rogue completely, with Lightning Fire Dragon Mode Natsu not being able to hurt Base Mard Geer at all. Now we know Base Natsu manages to kinda fight Etherious Mard Geer in their fight, but he really doesn't do any notable damage at all, Etherious Mard Geer is completely untouched from his and Devil Slayer Gray's attacks at the end of the fight.

Now Base Natsu, Devil Slayer Gray, Sting, and Rogue all take many hits from Mard Geer and keep fighting, but I can just chalk that up to them having good stamina and endurance. You can be weaker than someone and continue fighting after taking hits from them, I mean we see that many times in Fairy Tail. Base Natsu surving many hits from both Jellal and Laxus, who completely outclassed him, Team Natsu surviving many hits from Hades, who completely outclasses them, Sting and Rogue taking many hits from Base Natsu, who completely outclasses them, and all the Dragon Slayers taking hits from Acnologia, who completely outclasses them. This is very consistent, they can take the hits, but wouldn't fully scale to them. I mean Base Natsu is basically the king of continuing to fight and take hits from people who are far stronger than him, I mean he does this against Jellal, Laxus, Zero, Hades, Future Rogue, Mard Geer, and Zeref himself. They are all clearly stronger than him, but he keeps fighting because he's a stamina God. Devil Slayer Gray scaling to Base Mard Geer is unreliable due to them never having any direct confrontation of AP and Gray really only doing notable damage because of Devil Slayer advantage. I mean we're not scaling Base Wendy to an Eclipse Dragon just because she can hurt them with Dragon Slayer Magic.

So the changes that would be implemented are as such. Devil Slayer Gray just becomes a higher level of 7-B than he was before and everyone who scales to him also becomes 7-B. This means Tartaros Arc Sting and Rogue go back to being 7-B, scaling below Devil Slayer Gray and Base Natsu, but still being on that level. Natsu loses his Enhanced by Emotions key since as I said above, his feats can now be applied to his Base Form. Demon Jiemma still becomes 7-B since he is stronger than Human Form and has feats against both Base Natsu and Devil Slayer Gray. This also means Etherious Form Mard Geer also loses his 7-A+ rating due to him no longer tanking a combined attack from two 7-A's.

That is where I stand now, Devil Slayer Gray not being 7-A is consistent with how he is compared to Base Natsu

Thanks for the context.

Another thing is that Gray was able to one shot Tempesta, who could tank attacks from Natsu's Lightning Fire Dragon Mode or he could do more damage to Etherious Mard Geer than Dragon Force Natsu. Gray does have a big advantage against demons, so i agree that he shouldnt scale to Mard Geer in AP.

791 Devil Slayer Gray should probably be scale to LFDM Natsu, as in base forms they are shown to be comparable.

Yeah I was gonna call the OP a bit of an argument from incredulity, but with the context Mitch added I’m in agreement with the OP.

So would they merely scale above the prior keys or is there another chain they scale to?

I believe they should scale to Base Natsu in their base forms, as they were shown to be pretty close in level.

 

[Zackra1799]

Remember that Gray has Devil Slayer Magic, meaning every single one of his attacks have Durability Negation and is doing extra damage to Mard Geer, and we see that he is only taking minor damage from Devil Slayer Gray. And the damage levels don't even matter, since we know all these attacks are only doing so much damage because Gray has the advantage of Devil Slayer Magic. We don't see Devil Slayer Gray physically brawl or overpower Base Mard Geer in a head on clash. So saying Devil Slayer Gray is comparable to Base Mard Geer in AP isn't confirmed at all.

Natsu and Gray's normal punches were able to stop Etherious Mard Gears attack dead in its tracks, they also individually are able to stop Mard from smashing their heads into the ground without much injury, both of these are physical feats so I don't know how you got that Devil Slayer Gray doesn't scale to Mard. Natsu is even able to burn Mards Brambles. So either Natsu's Powernull can destroy attacks above his own tier or he's simply just 7-A in his fight with Etherious Mard Gear.

As well, Base Natsu, Sting, and Rogue only really fight a casual Base Mard Geer who isn't taking them seriously. Sting even says he isn't nearly as tough as Natsu, directly comparing this Mard Geer who isn't trying to the Natsu they lost to. Now Base Natsu is able to pressure this casual Base Mard Geer and give him a bruise, but we see later that the second Base Mard Geer gets serious, he finesses Base Natsu, Sting, and Rogue completely, with Lightning Fire Dragon Mode Natsu not being able to hurt Base Mard Geer at all. Now we know Base Natsu manages to kinda fight Etherious Mard Geer in their fight, but he really doesn't do any notable damage at all, Etherious Mard Geer is completely untouched from his and Devil Slayer Gray's attacks at the end of the fight.

This is just flat out wrong as Natsu's Brilliant flame attack left a nasty bruise on Mard's Face, which we can plainly see after he leaves his Etherious form, a stronger Mard also thought that Natsu was a threat enough that he dodged his breath attack despite already showing to be able to tank hits from LFDM Natsu with no damage which doesn't make any sense unless Natsu is alot stronger here.

Now Base Natsu, Devil Slayer Gray, Sting, and Rogue all take many hits from Mard Geer and keep fighting, but I can just chalk that up to them having good stamina and endurance. You can be weaker than someone and continue fighting after taking hits from them, I mean we see that many times in Fairy Tail, Team Natsu surviving many hits from Hades, who completely outclasses them, Sting and Rogue taking many hits from Base Natsu, whi completely outclasses them, and all the Dragon Slayers taking hits from Acnologia, who completely outclasses them.

So basically every villain in FT has PIS? Nah that doesn't work here chief, first of all Natsu vs Hades literally showed us that hades toying with team Natsu and even their power combined into a unison raid couldn't even scratch base hades unlike here where Natsu was able to damage Etherious Mard Gear. Natsu vs Sting and Rogue specifically told us that Natsu and Gajeel were holding back. And Acno wasn't even trying to kill the Dragon Slayers as he needed them to stabilize his magic power.

This situation with Mard Gear is completely different given he actively tries to kill them unlike the fights you mentioned here

Devil Slayer Gray scaling to Base Mard Geer is unreliable due to them never having any direct confrontation of power and Gray really only winning because of Devil Slayer advantage.

This is incorrect as I have shown above that Natsu and Gray are equal in power as their combined effort can overpower Mard several times, take his hits and react to his attacks, they are consistently shown to be 7-A in this fight.

We also can't leave Jienma out of this as Mard himself states that he's far above the nine demon gates despite the fact that Etherious form Kyoka and continuously Multiply her power every second. Jienma himself also states that he plans to fight Mard Gear himslef after killing thing and Rogue. This heavily supports the fact that Gray, Natsu, Sting, and Rogue are all 7-A.

 

[Eseseso]

I would agree with Mitch, but I'll wait to see whether or not Zackra is right.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I agree with Zackra. Just in case someone does say Natsu can power null shit > him. He burns magic and only magic at this point in time and Mard’s is Curse Power which is explained to be different my Mard himself.

Also wanna point out that the casual Mard was also the one that is mountain level by fighting and harming CSK.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah like I said before, I can't really agree with Mitch until he addresses Zackra's points.

 

[Siegfried10]

This is just flat out wrong as Natsu's Brilliant flame attack left a nasty bruise on Mard's Face, which we can plainly see after he leaves his Etherious form, a stronger Mard also thought that Natsu was a threat enough that he dodged his breath attack despite already showing to be able to tank hits from LFDM Natsu with no damage which doesn't make any sense unless Natsu is alot stronger here.

Actually, that injury is the one Natsu caused to base Mard Geer at the beginning of the fight, when Mard was playing around.

Natsu only started harming Etherious Mard Geer after using Dragon Force. This is how he looks when he was actually injured in Etherious Form.

 

[Zackra1799]

Actually, that injury is the one Natsu caused to base Mard Geer at the beginning of the fight, when Mard was playing around.

Natsu only started harming Etherious Mard Geer after using Dragon Force.

Nope because mard has Regen which healed all his injuries from his previous fights when he want into his etherious form.

Natsu just gave him a new injury

 

[Siegfried10]

Nope because mard has Regen which healed all his injuries from his previous fights when he want into his etherious form.

Natsu just gave him a new injury

He didnt, i updated the comment above. When Mard is injured in Etherious Form, it shows on Etherious Form (again, checked the scan with DF Natsu). When Base Natsu punched him he had no injury on his Etherious Form.

No, he healed the injury Gray caused. Natsu specifically mentioned one wound, and we see smoke coming out only from Gray's injury.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Natsu and Gray's normal punches were able to stop Etherious Mard Gears attack dead in its tracks, they also individually are able to stop Mard from smashing their heads into the ground without much injury, both of these are physical feats so I don't know how you got that Devil Slayer Gray doesn't scale to Mard. Natsu is even able to burn Mards Brambles. So either Natsu's Powernull can destroy attacks above his own tier or he's simply just 7-A in his fight with Etherious Mard Gear.

They were able to do that with many punches, It took them spamming punches over and over again to match one attack from Mard Geer, if they did it in one combined attack, that would be one thing, but the fact it took them many punches to do it says a lot. Also them smashing his head into the ground really doesn't matter much as it did no damage at all, he tanked that with minimal injury, them breaking out of him hold them is moreso a LS feat

This is just flat out wrong as Natsu's Brilliant flame attack left a nasty bruise on Mard's Face, which we can plainly see after he leaves his Etherious form, a stronger Mard also thought that Natsu was a threat enough that he dodged his breath attack despite already showing to be able to tank hits from LFDM Natsu with no damage which doesn't make any sense unless Natsu is alot stronger here.

That bruise was there before Mard Geer used his Etherious Form, so that means that wound is the same one as before, which actually means Etherious Mard Geer's Regen is likely wrong as well since it all relies on him healing that very face bruise, it's very possible Etherious Mard Geer's face is just armor built over his original human like face, so since no damage was visible on his armor face, it means we can't assume that scratch came from the Fire Dragon's Brilliant Flame. Also Mard Geer dodging his attack is just something anyone would obviously do, even if Mard Geer is way stronger, I don't see why he would intentionally get hit by his Fire Dragon's Roar

So basically every villain in FT has PIS? Nah that doesn't work here chief, first of all Natsu vs Hades literally showed us that hades toying with team Natsu and even their power combined into a unison raid couldn't even scratch base hades unlike here where Natsu was able to damage Etherious Mard Gear. Natsu vs Sting and Rogue specifically told us that Natsu and Gajeel were holding back. And Acno wasn't even trying to kill the Dragon Slayers as he needed them to stabilize his magic power.

My point still stands man, characters who are almost certainly weaker than the opponent are still able to continue fighting in their fight, especially Base Natsu. Remember, Jellal, Laxus, Zero, Hades, Future Rogue, and Zeref and are all clearly above Base Natsu, yet he doesn't go down after they land many hits on him. It is simply something Base Natsu does due to his insane stamina endurance. He constantly gets wrecked by opponents stronger than him and is able to keep on pressing on, despite being clearly outclassed. That's just how Natsu is built.

This is incorrect as I have shown above that Natsu and Gray are equal in power as their combined effort can overpower Mard several times, take his hits and react to his attacks, they are consistently shown to be 7-A in this fight.

Gray has Devil Slayer Advantage and him and Natsu are only able to knock Mard Geer away with blunt force.

We also can't leave Jienma out of this as Mard himself states that he's far above the nine demon gates despite the fact that Etherious form Kyoka and continuously Multiply her power every second. Jienma himself also states that he plans to fight Mard Gear himslef after killing thing and Rogue. This heavily supports the fact that Gray, Natsu, Sting, and Rogue are all 7-A.

We have no idea if Mard Geer is referring to that Kyoka who multiplies her power every second. And clearly it isn't a notable multiplier since she doesn't get notably stronger in that fight, continuing to lose to Erza at every step. Also do not trust Jiemma's statements at all, he's a cocky son of a bitch who is no accurate measure of scaling

Listen, I don't like this either, I hate being this guy, but all these guys not being 7-A is consistent with how Base Natsu is fighting alongside them. Yes it isn't full proof, Base Natsu does keep up with Mard Geer, but when you consider that Mard is taking only minimal damage from them, and he is winning the fight despite facing 2-3 of them at once. It just makes a lot of sense for him to be stronger than them by a decent deal. The reason they even do any notable damage at all during the fight is because of teamwork and team attacks. I mean hell, Base Natsu only even lands that attack on Etherious Form Mard Geer because of a sneak attack combo with Gray. I think downgrading them back to 7-B is what we should do. I can't let myself be biased here.

 

[Eseseso]

They were able to do that with many punches, It took them spamming punches over and over again to match one attack from Mard Geer, if they did it in one combined attack, that would be one thing, but the fact it took them many punches to do it says a lot. Also them smashing his head into the ground really doesn't matter much as it did no damage at all, he tanked that with minimal injury, them breaking out of him hold them is moreso a LS feat

That bruise was there before Mard Geer used his Etherious Form, so that means that wound is the same one as before, which actually means Etherious Mard Geer's Regen is likely wrong as well since it all relies on him healing that very face bruise, it's very possible Etherious Mard Geer's face is just armor built over his original human like face, so since no damage was visible on his armor face, it means we can't assume that scratch came from the Fire Dragon's Brilliant Flame. Also Mard Geer dodging his attack is just something anyone would obviously do, even if Mard Geer is way stronger, I don't see why he would intentionally get hit by his Fire Dragon's Roar

My point still stands man, characters who are almost certainly weaker than the opponent are still able to continue fighting in their fight, especially Base Natsu. Remember, Jellal, Laxus, Zero, Hades, Future Rogue, and Zeref and are all clearly above Base Natsu, yet he doesn't go down after they land many hits on him. It is simply something Base Natsu does due to his insane stamina endurance. He constantly gets wrecked by opponents stronger than him and is able to keep on pressing on, despite being clearly outclassed. That's just how Natsu is built.

Gray has Devil Slayer Advantage and him and Natsu are only able to knock Mard Geer away with blunt force.

We have no idea if Mard Geer is referring to that Kyoka who multiplies her power every second. And clearly it isn't a notable multiplier since she doesn't get notably stronger in that fight, continuing to lose to Erza at every step. Also do not trust Jiemma's statements at all, he's a cocky son of a bitch who is no accurate measure of scaling

Listen, I don't like this either, but all these guys not being 7-A is consistent with how Base Natsu is fighting alongside them, Mard is taking only minimal damage from these guys, and how he is winning the fight despite facing 2-3 of them at once makes sense. I think downgrading them back to 7-B is what we should do and is consistent with the fact that Mard Geer is above them.

Gotta go with Mitch here. Honestly, the X791 scaling had befuddled me for a while before the downgrades, so this makes things smoother.

But wouldn't Etherious form Mard Geer probably upscale to Mountain+ level since he's far above that 305.7 megaton feat? It's not 100% certain but IMO it's definitely possible.

Also, DF Natsu is still a 7-A because he was just smacking Etherious Mard Geer around with nameless attacks. Only reason Mard Geer prevailed was due to DF giving out too early.

 

[Zackra1799]

He didnt, i updated the comment above. When Mard is injured in Etherious Form, it shows on Etherious Form (again, checked the scan with DF Natsu). When Base Natsu punched him he had no injury on his Etherious Form.

No, he healed the injury Gray caused. Natsu specifically mentioned one wound, and we see smoke coming out only from Gray's injury.

Mard literally heals all injuries when he transforms including face injuries.

They were able to do that with many punches, It took them spamming punches over and over again to match one attack from Mard Geer, if they did it in one combined attack, that would be one thing, but the fact it took them many punches to do it says a lot. Also them smashing his head into the ground really doesn't matter much as it did no damage at all, he tanked that with minimal injury, them breaking out of him hold them is moreso a LS feat

It took many punches to destroy a named attack from Mard Geer, they withstood the force of the attack with just their fists and were perfectly fine.
Natsu + Grays striking strength = Etherious Mard's AP.
Multiple strikes means they would eventually overpower the attack as 2 7-Bs punching an attack over and over again aren't gonna do jack to something that has 10 your force.

That bruise was there before Mard Geer used his Etherious Form, so that means that wound is the same one as before, which actually means Etherious Mard Geer's Regen is likely wrong as well since it all relies on him healing that very face bruise, it's very possible Etherious Mard Geer's face is just armor built over his original human like face, so since no damage was visible on his armor face, it means we can't assume that scratch came from the Fire Dragon's Brilliant Flame. Also Mard Geer dodging his attack is just something anyone would obviously do, even if Mard Geer is way stronger, I don't see why he would intentionally get hit by his Fire Dragon's Roar

Mard literally heals all injuries when he transforms, he also healed his hand and torso as well so he defiantly has regen.

He got intentionally got hit by Natsu several times twice while sitting in his chair and once by LFDM Natsu.

My point still stands man, characters who are almost certainly weaker than the opponent are still able to continue fighting in their fight, especially Base Natsu. Remember, Jellal, Laxus, Zero, Hades, Future Rogue, and Zeref and are all clearly above Base Natsu, yet he doesn't go down after they land many hits on him. It is simply something Base Natsu does due to his insane stamina endurance. He constantly gets wrecked by opponents stronger than him and is able to keep on pressing on, despite being clearly outclassed. That's just how Natsu is built.

Trust me I'm well aware of Natsu's insane stamina feats in the series, but this isn't one of the times.

We have no idea if Mard Geer is referring to that Kyoka who multiplies her power every second. And clearly it isn't a notable multiplier since she doesn't get notably stronger in that fight, continuing to lose to Erza at every step. Also do not trust Jiemma's statements at all, he's a cocky son of a bitch who is no accurate measure of scaling

His statement is consistent with Mards own analysis of his strength being far above the 7-Bs is consistent with his own statement about his new demonic strength

Listen, I don't like this either, but all these guys not being 7-A is consistent with how Base Natsu is fighting alongside them, Mard is taking only minimal damage from these guys, and how he is winning the fight despite facing 2-3 of them at once makes sense. I think downgrading them back to 7-B is what we should do and is consistent with the fact that Mard Geer is above them.

I get where you are coming from but I respectfully disagree

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

See, I don't consider it regeneration, I think Mard Geer is just overlapping his Etherious Form Armored Face over his his Base Form Face. It makes no sense for Base Natsu to not leave a scratch on Etherious Form Mard Geer's face, but somehow when he deactivates the form, that mark is now there and it is directly due to Base Natsu's attack, despite that exact same mark being on Base Mard Geer's face right before he transforms.

 

[Zackra1799]

See, I don't consider it regeneration, I think Mard Geer is just overlapping his Etherious Form Armored Face over his his Base Form Face. It makes no sense for Base Natsu to not leave a scratch on Etherious Form Mard Geer's face, but somehow when he deactivates the form, that mark is now there and it is directly due to Base Natsu's attack, despite that exact same mark being on Base Mard Geer's face right before he transforms.

I understand what your getting at but I literally posted scans of Mard's injuries disappearing on his face mid transformation

It goes from this:

To this:

Most if not all of his facial wounds are gone within a very short timeframe and given we are shown that Mard's Torso wound literally disappeared earlier in the arc. This is clear cut regen.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I understand what your getting at but I literally posted scans of Mard's injuries disappearing on his face mid transformation

It goes from this:

To this:

Most if not all of his facial wounds are gone within a very short timeframe and given we are shown that Mard's Torso wound literally disappeared earlier in the arc. This is clear cut regen.

See I can just chalk that up to art inconsistency, I mean it's very common for artists to not keep wounds between panels extremely similar, but it is consistent that Base Mard Geer has a bruise on his left cheek from the start of the fight to the end of the fight, I don't think we have any solid proof that is solely because of Base Natsu's attack, also look, that panel shows that Etherious Form Face is overlapping on top of his Base Form Face, so it could have just covered the wound from earlier instead of healing it

But I don't want to focus on that too much, the main point is that the main scaling for all these guys being 7-A comes from Devil Slayer Gray, who is really only to damage Mard Geer with Devil Slayer Advantage, making him scale in AP to be unreliable

 

[Zackra1799]

See I can just chalk that up to art inconsistency, I mean it's very common for artists to not keep wounds between panels extremely similar, but it is consistent that Base Mard Geer has a bruise on his left cheek from the start of the fight to the end of the fight, I don't think we have any solid proof that is solely because of Base Natsu's attack, also look, that panel shows that Etherious Form Face is overlapping on top of his Base Form Face, so it could have just covered the wound from earlier instead of healing it

Mitch I shouldn't have to tell you that if art inconsistency is your only real argument against regen, that's a pretty poor stance to to take as I can throw the same logic back at you and say the Wound on his left cheek is also inconsistent. We have on panel showings of Mard Regening that's directly pointed out by Natsu.

But I don't want to focus on that too much

Fair Enough

the main point is that the main scaling for all these guys being 7-A comes from Devil Slayer Gray, who is really only to damage Mard Geer with Devil Slayer Advantage, making him scale in AP to be unreliable

I get what your saying but again we literally see Natsu and Grays Striking strength completely halt a named attack from Etherious Mard Gear, I think the simplest thing to do would be to get rid of the 2x amp for Etherious Mode Mard Geer and scale Emotions enhanced Natsu and Devil Slayer Gray to 1/2 Mard Gear as it took both of them to stop an attack from Mard Geer.

As for Sting and Rogue I would settle for 7-B, possibly 7-A as the scaling is definitely there for them but I just depends on how you view Natsu and Gray's scaling.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm leaning toward agreeing with Mitch on this, though it is worth noting that Gray took many hits from Mard Geer

 

[Nierre]

Also leaning towards agreeing with Mitch

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm in agreement with Mitch here

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I’m lost by this argument from Mitch about it not being regen. If Mard didn’t heal his wounds and the one he has later is from Natsu earlier in the fight …… then Natsu can harm Mard to the point regen couldn’t fix it …… so Natsu scales to Mard if he is right and 7-A stays.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm saying Mard Geer not only doesn't have regen, but also that wound is from when Mard was being casual and wasn't being serious at all

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Not being serious =/= lower dura. It also doesn’t address how casual Mard is 7-A.

 

[Nierre]

Not being serious =/= lower dura.

That's not true at all.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

That's not true at all.

How so? Mard can’t restrain his dura in anyway and unlike Magic Power, Curse Power has no statements or showings for using less = lower stats.

 

[Nierre]

How so? Mard can’t restrain his dura in anyway and unlike Magic Power, Curse Power has no statements or showings for using less = lower stats.

Well I'm just talking about in general. As for Mard idk

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean Base Mard Geer getting serious made him tank Natsu's LFDM, so him being casual and off guard explains why Base Natsu could hurt him, plus we can just write off Natsu's feats against Mard Geer as a temporary emotion amp, but not mention it on the profile like before

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, now it seems to me that there is a lot more supporting the downgrade than opposing it.

Agree with Mitch FRA.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

mitch i agree with

 

[Damage3245]

I think that Mitch makes sense.

 

[Siegfried10]

So Sting and Rogue should scale to Base Natsu and Devil Slayer Mark Gray should scale above his base form (or to LFDM Natsu)?

 

[Elizhaa]

I think Mitch's points make more sense.