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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
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Literally him in regards to my 'arguments': "you never actually make a compelling argument"
You don't gotta chime in, its very blatantly there. Think what you want but you dont actually get to decide that 'my arguments the best and yours is the worst'
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Boobs
Lou_change
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This is a general discussion thread for a franchise the odds of getting a third is significantly lower than a versus thread or CRT so in terms of rules it pretty much comes down to what you each individually decide are the rules and at that point it's like Achilles talking to that tortoise.
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The canon un-split established that not everything is 1:1 between the different Pokemon media, but they share the same worldview. If I'm being honest I don't think this means that everything that can be done by a Pokemon in the manga can also be done by a Pokemon of the same species in the anime or game.
Imagine Creatures Inc. were making a game where Mewtwo fights evenly with Deoxys and defeats him without targetting his weak spot in the game's storyboards. Do you think that Junichi Masuda and Satoshi Tajiri themselves would see it and not allow it to happen because it goes against what happened in the Adventures manga? The answer is no, because the Pokemon Company and Nintendo aren't micromanaging every single detail. They don't care if the power levels of Pokemon differ depending on the medium, all they care about is that it fits their general standards of the Pokemon World
Small details like powerscaling (or minor details about a Pokemon's special abilities that aren't from the Dex) don't always have to be consistent in order for something to fit the general worldview of Pokemon.
The Pokemon Adventures manga, for example, contains a small detail about Dragon type Pokemon that doesn't exist anywhere else in the verse. This wasn't rejected by the Pokemon Company, not because they think Rayquaza in the games and and anime can do the exact same thing, but presumably because its such a small detail that it doesn't matter. They don't have the time to micromanage everything and make sure every little detail is consistent- the blog even includes an interview with the Adventures writer claiming that some of his ideas would have gotten rejected if he had asked the Pokemon Company for guidance before the chapters are published.
The whole "same worldview" thing and strict guidelines are just there to make sure that there isn't anything in Adventures or the anime that breaks the setting of Pokemon like Rayquaza's head actually being its weiner or Lt. Surge being a member of the Viet Cong
Imagine Creatures Inc. were making a game where Mewtwo fights evenly with Deoxys and defeats him without targetting his weak spot in the game's storyboards. Do you think that Junichi Masuda and Satoshi Tajiri themselves would see it and not allow it to happen because it goes against what happened in the Adventures manga? The answer is no, because the Pokemon Company and Nintendo aren't micromanaging every single detail. They don't care if the power levels of Pokemon differ depending on the medium, all they care about is that it fits their general standards of the Pokemon World
Small details like powerscaling (or minor details about a Pokemon's special abilities that aren't from the Dex) don't always have to be consistent in order for something to fit the general worldview of Pokemon.
The Pokemon Adventures manga, for example, contains a small detail about Dragon type Pokemon that doesn't exist anywhere else in the verse. This wasn't rejected by the Pokemon Company, not because they think Rayquaza in the games and and anime can do the exact same thing, but presumably because its such a small detail that it doesn't matter. They don't have the time to micromanage everything and make sure every little detail is consistent- the blog even includes an interview with the Adventures writer claiming that some of his ideas would have gotten rejected if he had asked the Pokemon Company for guidance before the chapters are published.
The whole "same worldview" thing and strict guidelines are just there to make sure that there isn't anything in Adventures or the anime that breaks the setting of Pokemon like Rayquaza's head actually being its weiner or Lt. Surge being a member of the Viet Cong
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Disclaimer: I do not intend to make a CRT to bring back the canon split
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Thank you for bringing proof.
Regardless I will answer. In the interview the authors of the manga outright say they get the game 2 months prior and have to study it. Then they get freedom in minor things like putting their emotion into the story or things like trainers having unique ways of catching pokemon (which isn't really outlandish at all, think there were some examples of that in the games as well). The dragon type thing would be a good point but there's an issue, we don't see this again in the manga either. We don't get a chance to see whether this is real in the games either (although i gotta say I ought to finally play ORAS and gather info). Inconsistencies like that happen in between the games too so I wouldn't say it's not particularly destructive.
AyOgUyS
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However I do think Jinx has a point. Just because an adaptation is very faithful to the source material does not neccessarily mean it is canon.
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Again, they are parallel timelines, blatantly stated.
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Parallel worlds in a multiverse like Pokemon would include non-canon content.
However unless you have direct contact between these two mediums, similar to what something like the MCU did between Fox X-Men, then theres no scaling reasons other than for vibes. The Spiderverse for example confirms multiple old spiderman mediums all being part of the same multiverse, but you dont scale those characters directly to eachother.
The Games version of 'parallel worlds' in Ultra Space dont show anything linking the anime-versions for example, and take place in their own unique worlds.
Given the Anime, Manga and Games take place in their own continuities and are drastically different mediums, theres no direct scaling point to be made. Much like every other verse on this wiki does, separate pages are made for separate continuities, even if they are 'parallel' versions. Pokemon should also follow this basis instead of compositing, especially when there is plentiful content in each unlike very minor exceptions you can probably get away with.
However unless you have direct contact between these two mediums, similar to what something like the MCU did between Fox X-Men, then theres no scaling reasons other than for vibes. The Spiderverse for example confirms multiple old spiderman mediums all being part of the same multiverse, but you dont scale those characters directly to eachother.
The Games version of 'parallel worlds' in Ultra Space dont show anything linking the anime-versions for example, and take place in their own unique worlds.
Given the Anime, Manga and Games take place in their own continuities and are drastically different mediums, theres no direct scaling point to be made. Much like every other verse on this wiki does, separate pages are made for separate continuities, even if they are 'parallel' versions. Pokemon should also follow this basis instead of compositing, especially when there is plentiful content in each unlike very minor exceptions you can probably get away with.
AyOgUyS
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Well it seems like the main debate is on how exactly the Wiki treats this idea of continuities sharing a cosmology. To make this argument more constructive and to hopefully reach a conclusion, I believe you two should take this to staff and ask for clarification. Perhaps the current Canon page needs a revision because that appears to be the main topic of debate.
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I believe that this has already been done when the exact same argument was brought up in the canon unsplit thread and the staff accepted it. Literally the same exact stuff was brought up by Ayewale years ago, accepted at first, then debunked and the debunk was accepted by staff. This is the answer here.
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Clinging to the past when circumstances can obviously be opposed and changed still. CRTs that arent necessarily correct get passed all the time, and theres always contention so its not as if its just 100% correct just because it was passed. Obviously though its a huge endeavour and no one is willing to work together to ease the workload.
Evidently, the Pokemon verse is very outdated, messy and inconsistent with one another as it stands quality-wise. Separate Mediums within the same franchise should be treated as their own. Games fundamentally operate on a levelling basis (that dont reflect lore), the anime and manga are written story with no progression restraints. The Anime consistently disregards how fights and circumstances would happen in the games due to this. They just naturally arent comparable and separate profiles for any alternate versions of characters should be made. There are Navboxes now for compositing.
I also wouldnt be using vague statements and interviews as the backbone of this, that arent discussing the powerscaling or seriously trying to say everything takes place/operates on the same level when they quite clearly dont.
Evidently, the Pokemon verse is very outdated, messy and inconsistent with one another as it stands quality-wise. Separate Mediums within the same franchise should be treated as their own. Games fundamentally operate on a levelling basis (that dont reflect lore), the anime and manga are written story with no progression restraints. The Anime consistently disregards how fights and circumstances would happen in the games due to this. They just naturally arent comparable and separate profiles for any alternate versions of characters should be made. There are Navboxes now for compositing.
I also wouldnt be using vague statements and interviews as the backbone of this, that arent discussing the powerscaling or seriously trying to say everything takes place/operates on the same level when they quite clearly dont.
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I think this approach also fails to reflect how characters become stronger across the course of the story instead of staying stagnantly in one tier. At what points in time do you compare the anime and the games? Even Wild Pokemon have this difference depending on what route and area you go to? Among many of the other general issues with compositing all Pokemon media to scale it to one another...
Even that Pinsir used in the anime speed calc...it might be a Wild Pokemon but Pinsir is a single-stage evolution line and pokemon power levels vary greatly to one another. And our species profiles assume the absolute strongest a wild-species of a pokemon can get but it doesnt reflect the individual ones in an anime storyline for example.
Even that Pinsir used in the anime speed calc...it might be a Wild Pokemon but Pinsir is a single-stage evolution line and pokemon power levels vary greatly to one another. And our species profiles assume the absolute strongest a wild-species of a pokemon can get but it doesnt reflect the individual ones in an anime storyline for example.
AyOgUyS
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Well Pokemon is among the most popular and iconic verses on this Wiki. I am certain that we can gather lots of supporters. I myself would be willing to help out whenever I can no matter what ends up being accepted.
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I wouldnt say within the wiki, its progress is very stagnant and its only barely been able to update itself with Legends ZA. I make a Pokemon profile occasionally to get some idea but i cant say i personally agree with the scaling and verse standards Pokemon has right now so i tend to avoid it. Literally nothing has been said for Legends ZA despite everything. I would be willing to help in the quality maintenance department, and i made CRTs that arent going anywhere
The first place i'd start is by massively cutting a lot of the content we have now, such as outdated pokemon page profiles just so the workload is less daunting, this verse has a LOT of page presence of varying quality, which can then gradually be built back up again once proper standards are enforced but thats a bit too extremist for others here.
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you overestimate people here. Even before when Ayewale did the canon split and the wiki was far more alive, especially pokemon-wise, the actual revision failed. The workload was too big and the person in question quit. The other supporters did some minor things but the verse essentially didn't change in the course of a year or two.
Currently I can barely get any Pokemon CRT to pass because nobody comes either. Supporters don't do much either. If such a revision were to happen and if it were to get accepted it will suffer a worse fate as the wiki is far less active than before.
AyOgUyS
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Mayhaps you should consider joining another power scaling wiki in the meantime?
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Take your pick but the main ones for me:
Inconsistent Page Quality - Most pages differ in format and quality, some even being in different tiers based on a flawed Abomasnow feat (which shouldnt scale to AP as a passive effect, as well as it being a special Abomasnow). Profiles also cant seem to choose a standard naming convention. with some pages being named after their pre-evolutions while some are named after the final evolution, and on top of that the main image of the profile not representing this properly. Theres also this Profile Standards Page that barely gets followed (and can be a blog)
Continuity mixing - Huge mix of cross-scaling, like comparing game characters physicals to Ash Ketchum for no reason, or even to stuff like using Pokemon Conquest abilities in regards to wild species profiles (Conquest is its own thing). A lot of these characters could have separate profiles for their own interpretations. Stuff like Pokemon GO and even Masters EX attempting to be mixed into the canon too which are very clearly separate.
Not kept up to date - Missing so much info from the latest games like S/V and Z-A. Meanwhile we have sillier pages like Relativistic 'Lawnmower' or 'The Mech' instead
Outdated Verse page - use of uncredited fanart, bad formatting, outdated sections such as in P&A.
(Also faulty scaling but thats imo)
Inconsistent Page Quality - Most pages differ in format and quality, some even being in different tiers based on a flawed Abomasnow feat (which shouldnt scale to AP as a passive effect, as well as it being a special Abomasnow). Profiles also cant seem to choose a standard naming convention. with some pages being named after their pre-evolutions while some are named after the final evolution, and on top of that the main image of the profile not representing this properly. Theres also this Profile Standards Page that barely gets followed (and can be a blog)
Continuity mixing - Huge mix of cross-scaling, like comparing game characters physicals to Ash Ketchum for no reason, or even to stuff like using Pokemon Conquest abilities in regards to wild species profiles (Conquest is its own thing). A lot of these characters could have separate profiles for their own interpretations. Stuff like Pokemon GO and even Masters EX attempting to be mixed into the canon too which are very clearly separate.
Not kept up to date - Missing so much info from the latest games like S/V and Z-A. Meanwhile we have sillier pages like Relativistic 'Lawnmower' or 'The Mech' instead
Outdated Verse page - use of uncredited fanart, bad formatting, outdated sections such as in P&A.
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No ty. There aren't any better or established power scaling wikis and im not ride or die for Pokemon. I know what im about here
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I will say that outside of the continuity mixing, which I think is very much fine as I said, the rest of the issues are a real problem. I can't keep up with the amount of stuff by myself and if you've seen it, most of the CRTs done by others cover only legendaries, mostly tier 1 stuff.
AyOgUyS
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Ok let's put these issues in a hierarchy of importance, address the most important one at the top, and move down from there.
So we have:
1. Continuity mixing
2. Outdated info
3. Outdated verse page
4. Page quality
Which of these problems is the most pressing one that needs to be fixed quickly?
AyOgUyS
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It might be a good idea to pause all Pokemon CRTs while we figure things out
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Well for me, id rather clean the slate and get rid of lower quality profiles to decide that conclusively (that also helps adjust verse page). This will make it less of a daunting challenge to fix over 500+ profiles. Legendary Profiles will probably be kept though, which also have their own outdated issues.
I think Continuity Mixing needs to be fixed and separated depending on the main mediums of game, anime and manga, as its the main ground of the power scaling. Fixing that first also gives a better gateway into number 2 and 3 which is Page Quality and Outdated. Obviously though, people disagree with that and want to keep compositing...which the entire wiki has moved on from and make separate profiles for apart from us.
I had recently made a profile for Anime Cynthia as opposed to her Game counterpart to try and illustrate, at least to myself how its possible, even though due to the continuity mixing, the stats are essentially the same.
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I will not, especially if the revisions you'll do in question are canon splitting.
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With the sudden rise of popularity with the Ragyo vs Lusamine matchup too, and the different interpretations due to Lusamine having...5 different versions of herself (S/M, USUM, Anime, Manga and Masters EX) which determine the outcome of the fight, i think its another glaring reason we need to differentiate things. VSBW is one of the main turn-tos for the general audiences, and pages like Lusamines will represent the quality of the verse, which as it stands right now, isnt very impressive. (I can agree to maybe mixing S/M and USUM Lusamine pre-Mother Beast on one page, since theyre parallel worlds established within mainline, but not the other variants)
Even outside of scaling stats, stuff like what Pokemon Lusamine actually has access too for example, are vastly different between continuities. Its not just about scaling the stats, but their arsenals too.
Even outside of scaling stats, stuff like what Pokemon Lusamine actually has access too for example, are vastly different between continuities. Its not just about scaling the stats, but their arsenals too.
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In my opinion, the most important thing is to fix the standards and make sure the verse follows them (that should make everything else easier). For example:
knowing what hax are each move = helps when you have to fix the profiles, because it would just be copying and pasting that In each one.
knowing what hax are each move = helps when you have to fix the profiles, because it would just be copying and pasting that In each one.
AyOgUyS
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I dunno about deletion but yes, we need to revise a lot of profiles (For example, I believe the Magikarp one uses "via power scaling" reasoning)
We definitely need more thoughts on that and have a hopefully respectful discussion about it. Are there other active Pokemon supporters?
Noted!
Well it is just a suggestion that I think might help make things easier but alright.
You have a good point. Various characters across different continuities have entirely different arsenals. Red's team is infamously different across different games for example.
Definitely. Many of our current profiles are not following the Pokemon Standards page. It is probably a good idea to collect a list of those pages.
This seems like a good idea to me. Maybe a blog that documents all moves and how they'd be indexed should be made?
Good idea.
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What CRT are you working on currently?
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Legendary scaling with the varies rating for the species profiles and I am trying to figure out how to rework my Mega Evolution CRT that failed before. I think I can establish an energy system but I need material from ORAS for that to work so that what I'll be playing soon.
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Why varies and not just different profiles and keys?
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Because several legendaries are confirmed to be species rather than one individual creature. There are countless more that are individuals but some are clearly meant to be different among several. This kind of change to legendaries was also accepted in the canon unsplit as a compromise that we need to account for that but sadly nobody bothered. Currently I am working to figure it out.
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I mean I agree, but I feel like that also justifies different profiles, not just a varies rating. Also where was that accepted? I looked at the canon unsplit blog and I found the opposite- see the second last section in this doc titled "Legendaries need to be composited"
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in the actual thread it was discussed with mods and the conclusion was that we do get some varies ratings. It's one thing when a legendary is an individual creature, they mostly aren't inconsistent, Necrozma always lights up the world, Groudon and Kyogre always lift the continents, ect. but when a Legendary Pokemon is explicitly a species then the game changes a bit as suddenly their power can vary throughout their appearances. There's often a minimum, like Lugia having a High 6-C feat in Pokedex, but then other appearances proceed to vary. Another example of a mon that shouldn't be scaled as an individual is Darkrai who we've seen scale around High 6-A (Tobias), 5-B to High 3-A (Z-A and Journeys) and Low 1-C (Darkrai movie, Pokepark technically). Knowing that there's more than 1 Darkrai shows that we can have them vary in power and that comes from the inherent feature of species profiles to have one.
I am currently also focusing on Mewtwo as I believe he is even more of a special case. I think Mewtwo should be scaled fully as separate characters. Whilst other mons like Groudon and Kyogre have been more of a setting Legendary that doesn't change at all throughout it's appearances, Mewtwo is very different. Mewtwo isn't ancient and is created by multiple different organizations. He is treated more as a character throughout the media with his own story beats and changes. Game Mewtwo is actually kinda difficult to scale because there's potentially 2 different Mewtwos for whatever reason (Teaml Flare lore really threw a wrench into the whole thing). Anime Mewtwo would be pretty powerful as he outright says in Mewtwo Returns that he has grown far beyond what Giovani has seen and then in Journeys whoops Ash's ass. Manga Mewtwo
This change would probably shift around the entire Black and White scaling but I'll figure it out.
