One Piece Chapter 993: "Wano-kuni's dream" (Official Release))

[RoyGundam]

Oda is not very keen on maintaining things like realistic powerscaling. If that were the case we wouldn't be seeing the Scabbards vs Kaido fight that we are seeing right now.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Emi - ?? What are you even talking about? Zoro and Sanji have not shown any major jumps in power since the time-skip. Sanji only got his Raid-Suit--which only allowed him to get the better of Page One (but never defeating him). How can a few days of training justify him jumping up above Jinbe and King? LOL

Zoro's best feats consist of defeating Pica and momentarily getting the better of Hawkins. Even with training, I doubt he's automatically going to kill Kaido like some of you claim. That is unless you mean when Kaido is near-death by the time Zoro attacks him. And if you want to talk about Zoro fighting Fujitora--that character's best feats consist of fighting Sabo and 2v1ing Jack alongside Tsuru while still losing half of his ships. I say questioning Zoro's level of power in this war is justified--since he's expected to fight someone way more powerful than characters that would already give him a hard time.

@Ryuga - Luffy and Zoro are confirmed to have given up on fighting CP9 under the assumption that Robin simply wanted nothing to do with them and betrayed their trust. When Nami informed them of the truth, they were revitalized. Luffy already knew Gear 2nd and 3rd since after his fight with Aokiji.

Also, Lucci's Shigan in Zoan Form is what wounded Luffy (and his kick sent Zoro flying--sticking him in a chimney), and as far as I remember, he never managed to land that attack in their 2nd fight because Luffy was too fast and avoided or deflected it every time.

@Roy - While this might be true, We set our expectations low thanks to Kin'emon and others having questionable feats (losing to Law, getting clapped by Doflamingo, etc), but we saw 3 of them being able to go even with Jack, so it's not exactly surprising for 9 people who are =/> Jack to be pressuring Kaido (who we have limited information on anyways)

 

[Eminiteable]

Oh great... another one of Cin's iconic wall of texts filled with a whole lot of nothing.

Sanji only got his Raid-Suit--which only allowed him to get the better of Page One (but never defeating him)

Sanji was only testing out the raid suit's capabilities that entire fight, the fact he's confident in Usopp keeping Nami safe against Page One speaks for itself. Sanji in that brief brawl didn't use haki or Diable Jambe, his capabilities are unknown.

Zoro's best feats consist of defeating Pica and momentarily getting the better of Hawkins.

"downplaying his own feats rather than Zoro jumping tiers in strength" Zoro one-shot Pica & completely tore through an amped Hawkins (i.e one-shot him). Don't know how you can legitimately via that as "momentarily getting the better of him".

that character's best feats consist of fighting Sabo and 2v1ing Jack alongside Tsuru while still losing half of his ships

Fujitora downplay now is it, ok. Wasn't aware that any of that battle was shown on-screen, pretty sure only a news article so I'm unsure on why you're claiming you have any idea how that fight went down, for all we know he could have easily have been one shot by Fujitora alone; neither Sengoku or Fujitora were injured as seen during the Reverie Arc. Also being a bit disingenuous by saying "half", although true there was literally only four ships, so Jack destroyed two marine ships and was wiped completely out. Besides literally being an admiral and clearly playing a role in the final war which comes after the Yonko Saga, he also blocked an attack from Doflamingo.

Also the Sabo point, both Fujitora's & Sabo's full capabilities are unknown, so unsure why this is relevant.

I say questioning Zoro's level of power in this war is justified--since he's expected to fight someone way more powerful than characters that would already give him a hard time.

While he was disadvantaged by losing his strongest sword he held his own on two occasions against opponents far stronger than the calamities.

 

[CinCameron20]

Yikes, be toxic somewhere else.

 

[Eminiteable]

Cin, how is that at all toxic. If anything I'd claim your post about it being awful writing that your headcanon wasn't right was toxic.

 

[Dr.Fix]

"Jinbei needs to protect them, he must be stronger!"

"Jinbei will sacrifice himself here so they can fight the top dog, they must be more powerful!"

The one thing these arguments have in common is they draw conclusions based on loose interpretations instead of feats. Honestly it just makes me think of the Buggy Posse and how they scale.

 

[CinCameron20]

Emi is being delusional, just gonna ignore him at this point.

@Fix - I only argued against how the belief that Jinbe guarding Sanji somehow resulting in the latter being stronger is faulty. Though I assume now you're not directing that comment at me.

 

[RoyGundam]

Speaking of Fujitora - isn't he going to be the basis of all God Tier scaling pretty soon ? What is the point in downplaying Fujitora then ?

 

[Lgamer099_99]

@Eminiteable
Just thanks for what you wrote, I am also happy to see how you changed your mind about Sanji vs Page One.
Having said that, I can't wait to see Zoro and Sanji fighting at full power, this chapter also kinda confirmes that Zoro Is the only one that can hurt Kaido with a sword (in Wano), so again, I am kinda sure that the swordsman will fight alongside Luffy against the Strongest Creature in the world.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Roy - Not Fujitora. Doflamingo for his threads no-selling a 6-C meteorite from a shower, which extends to himself, and anyone who scales to or above him.

And I am not downplaying Fujitora. He simply lacks a lot of combative feats and was equalized by Gear 3rd Luffy (before he decided not to kill him) and his strongest shown display was no-sold by one of Doflamingo's abilities (Not to mention he alone would be incapable of stopping the bird-cage's enclosure). I fail to see how stating Fujitora to be inferior to characters who have better overall feats to be "downplay".

 

[Aerozz]

hey guys idk if u remember this but fuji can actually/could destroy mingo and the birdcage because remember fuji said that he purposely didnt help them for a big reason and that is to show all the world that warlords are horrible people and this is one of the biggest reasons why warlord system is gone now because of what he did (i couldnt post it but its on chapter 793 ) edit also he said that he left the fighting up to them aka Sraw Hats.

 

[RoyGundam]

@Roy - Not Fujitora. Doflamingo for his threads no-selling a 6-C meteorite from a shower, which extends to himself, and anyone who scales to or above him.

Technically Fujitora directly scales to (most likely above) his own offensive feat ... and again, the only reason for scaling Birdcage at that level is because of Fujitora's feat in the first place

You are saying something like : A implies B which implies C,D,E ... so B is the source of the scaling ... Whereas A is actually the source

 

[Dr.Fix]

@CinCameron20 Its open to anyone who uses faulty arguments or is annoyed by those with faulty arguments. In this case I say you were in the latter.

P:S use the full name next time so I am tagged.

I fail to see how stating Fujitora to be inferior to characters who have better overall feats to be "downplay".

Agreed. If anything it is downplaying other characters.

 

[RoyGundam]

And if you want to talk about Zoro fighting Fujitora--that character's best feats consist of fighting Sabo and 2v1ing Jack alongside Tsuru while still losing half of his ships.

This is the downplay. Which is very odd because the Fujitora is soon going to be the one with the highest calced offensive feat - which all God and Top Tiers would scale to through Doffy's Birdcage showing

Also, Devil Fruits are weird and sometimes appear to have absolute power, like when Oden couldn't cut Bari Bari no Mi's Barriers. Birdcage could just be a special case like that

 

[Lgamer099_99]

@Dr.Fix
I don't get how the argument can be invalid. Sanji at the beginning of the chapter wants to fight the fodders alone, so that Luffy can conserve his strength for Kaido. After this, Jinbe shows up and wants to fight the fodders alone, so that Luffy and Sanji can conserve their strength for their future fights (Kaido for Luffy and maybe King or Queen for Sanji?).
This is a clear suggestion of an hierarchy from the author, Luffy > Sanji > Jinbe. But in a lot of people eyes portray isn't enough, so just wait and see what happens, I am confident we'll see enough feats from Sanji to scale above Jinbe.

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump Official Release is out

 

[Eminiteable]

Some important things that can be revealed form the official release, Kaido says he would have let the Scabbards kill him until he realised they weren't Oden. Kaido having 'Air Manipulation (with his roar he produces dozens of invisible air slashes)'.

Also the whole Jinbe Sanji thing. Sanji says he could take them down in 10 seconds but Luffy says on his own he could take them down in 3. When Jinbe appears he says he's only escorting Luffy up to the fight with Kaido. My guess is Sanji & Jinbe will fight a Calamity together or one each.

 

[Dr.Fix]

so just wait and see what happens, I am confident we'll see enough feats from Sanji to scale above Jinbe.

Sounds good, just wait and see.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Kaido having 'Air Manipulation (with his roar he produces dozens of invisible air slashes)'.

I wonder if this qualifies as Danmaku . . .

 

[Purgy]

Probably not even close, and it wasn't dozens of air slashes, like 5 or 6 at most.

 

[Eminiteable]

Just used dozens as a place holder.

 

[Eminiteable]

Now I'm fully expecting a hail storm or maybe rain bullets as Kaido's next attack.

 

[Ryuga21]

I hope he has a hybrid form

 

[RoyGundam]

So in the official release, Kaido says this about the Scabbards : "In your spirit ... I saw the visage of Kozuki Oden". Now, I have seen that the word "spirit" is often used interchangeably with "haki" in the official English translations so is that the case here ? Anyone read the original Japanese version ? Because that could be interesting

 

[Eminiteable]

Haki is 覇気 which translates to Ambition or aspiration.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Dr.Fix - I didn't realize that people don't get pinged like in the wiki, so I guess I have to do this now. Thank you.

@RoyGundam - Fujitora will have the highest feat in terms of destruction, but that does not imply he is a god-tier. Saying he is likely weaker than x and y character based on showings is not downplay when he doesn't have anything to contradict this:

Doffy's cage didn't even budge from a meteor shower, and Fuji himself could not stop the cage fully--even with assistance (suffice to say there is a reasonable argument to suggest he was holding back a bit). He went even with Luffy (While he was fully intent on killing him moments before the citizens popped up).

Claiming Fujitora is likely weaker than these characters isn't downplay if the contrary can't really be argued.

@Aerozz - You are correct. Fujitora did say he chose not to fight in order to gamble on Luffy/Law for the sake of exposing how BS the Warlord system is, and that it would be hypocritical for a marine to turn their blade on Doflamingo when they are the ones who put him in a position of power. However, this does not confirm that Fujitora would beat Doflamingo, especially when he did not claim to be capable of doing so.

----

If Kaido's next displayed element is Ice, it probably will be a hail-storm to counter Izo's bullet if the latter goes berserk. Probably have a display of Izo firing off 10 shots only to get riddled with dozens of ice pellets.

 

[RoyGundam]

Doffy's cage didn't even budge from a meteor shower

Birdcage could very likely be one of the special cases of devil fruit powers

He went even with Luffy (While he was fully intent on killing him moments before the citizens popped up).

This is not really supported in the canon. Luffy was calling out his attacks and his nature had already affected Fujitora. Moreover Fujitora could have easily killed everyone by drowning their ships but chose not to. Luffy Vs Fujitora skirmish was already over by the time the citizens arrived. G3 Luffy being equal to Fujitora is not based on any solid evidence. From what I remember, Fujitora wasn't hit even once

 

[Eminiteable]

At the start of the battle Luffy gets a free hit on him with his elephant gun, Fujitora blocks it but it does lightly bruise his cheek and it does push him back.

The only damage shown is some light bruising but it is inconsistent since it does disappear in most panels. But yeah Luffy in Gear third was completely overwhelmed by a somewhat serious Fujitora who used his devil fruit powers.

 

[RoyGundam]

Fujitora always uses his devil fruit powers though. Even against absolute fodder. The fact that he used his devil fruit powers is not proof he was serious

 

[Damage3245]

Soon it will be 2021... and people will still be debating Doflamingo and Fujitora.

 

[Eminiteable]

Argumentation can change over the course of time Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

Argumentation can change over the course of time Damage.

For sure. But it's still funny.

 

[RoyGundam]

Soon it will be 2021... and people will still be debating Doflamingo and Fujitora.

LoL

 

[CinCameron20]

@RoyGundam - I already said Fujitora was intent on killing Luffy and even said he would "guide him to hell himself" until the citizens of Dressrosa showed up.

Fujitora was hit once on-panel, but we don't see much of their fight except for the end of it, where Gear 2nd Luffy was fighting him and we see that both characters had some small bruises (that vanish every page because that's every injury in this manga). I could say "we didn't see Luffy get hit before Raging Tiger" but we have evidence since he's got 2 marks on his face. Same for Fujitora since we saw one punch connect to his face, and another small mark being apparent in the very next chapter.

 

[RoyGundam]

Oda just puts throwaway ink strokes, doesn't mean there were any injuries

 

[RoyGundam]

@RoyGundam - I already said Fujitora was intent on killing Luffy and even said he would "guide him to hell himself" until the citizens of Dressrosa showed up.

Fujitora was hit once on-panel, but we don't see much of their fight except for the end of it, where Gear 2nd Luffy was fighting him and we see that both characters had some small bruises (that vanish every page because that's every injury in this manga). I could say "we didn't see Luffy get hit before Raging Tiger" but we have evidence since he's got 2 marks on his face. Same for Fujitora since we saw one punch connect to his face, and another small mark being apparent in the very next chapter.

I re-read the Luffy vs Fujitora fight and there was exactly one panel right after Luffy's first attack where it seemed like Fujitora had a small bruise. Bruising is absent on literally every other panel showing his face. Fujitora also had all the rubble in the sky the entire time.

You misrepresent Fujitora saying he'd guide Luffy to hell. His words came from a place of compassion. Fujitora knows that by defeating Doflamingo, Luffy had put himself squarely in the sights of the Yonko and would they would ensure he meets a painful end. Also that particular line was after the fight had already concluded and Fujitora was talking about sinking the ships

 

[LordGinSama]

We need to get the stats settled tbh, we just need to wait for the following since Ace's 6-C feat was accepted, which Yonko will scale above.


* Kaido's and Big Mom's heaven split


* Birdcage scaling


* CRT on Mihawk's iceberg feat


* Speed CRT for pre time skip ( Sub Rel+ to Rel+ )


* Whitebeard's 6-B feat




I say we leave the Whitebeard feat discussion for last so we can have something for them to scale to before. Ace's 6-C feat and the speed ratings should be the easiest as they don't require much change. ( High 7-A to 6-C )

 

[Damage3245]

That seems more like it would belong on the general discussion thread.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Necro'd by @LordGinSama
@Damage3245 you should probably close this thread since the next chapter came out days ago.