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Mythology: Revising the Cosmology of All Myths

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Kepekley23

VS Battles
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Disclaimer

Right off the bat; yes, this is clickbait, but not a false one. Pretty much every single myth or close to it is going to be affected.

Second: This thread is completely unrelated to the earlier thread about the Jade Emperor, religion and etc. I have been planning this for weeks. I was just too personally-lazy to post this and ultimately decided to ride on the recent mythology controversy so that this thread could get more attention (because I do feel it's important)

The Thread
I'm going to make this short, if only because the actual wall of text with the relevant evidence will only come later, once I'm done writing an explanation blog up.

A good portion of our mythology profiles suck.

The reason is very simple; they're all suffering from a case of "Modern-Thought-and-Knowledge-Overriding-the-Ancient-View-of-Things"ism. If that's too much a mouthful for you, I personally called it the "superimposition theory" on a thesis I wrote for college many moons ago. I think "the profiles are wrong" is more straightforward though.

Basically, lots of our profiles for mythology fail to acknowledge the fact that, back when those mythologies were written and composed, people viewed the universe in a vastly different manner than we do in this enlightened age.

What's funny about this is that the page itself acknowledges this issue, yet it seems to pretend or be under the impression that the only thing that changed since the Pre-Roman world was the physical size of the universe. All myth profiles assume we always knew the Earth revolved around the Sun instead of the other way around, that the Earth was spherical in shape, that the Sun was a big ball of gas, that outer space was a thing and orbits existed. This is because every single god who creates, embodies or affects the universe and those who scale to them are rated at 4-C up to as high as 4-B for creating stars, the planets, the Sun or the Solar System. Some profiles for ancient mythologies even go as far as to provide the Earth's modern rotational speed or the mass of the Earth's atmosphere (such as Hercules), which is just...missing the entire point.

Every single ancient or near-modern myth out there describes its cosmology in intricate detail, from Ancient Sumerian, Egyptian or Babylonian myths to Greek mythology all the way to Norse mythologies from the 12-13rd centuries. The same dilemma applies to non-mythological, classic stories from the same time period, such as Dante Alighieri's Inferno, which bases much of its cosmology on the scientifical theories of the time and this definitely shows in the way its cosmos is described.

Therefore, my suggestion is pretty simple - use what is actually described in the literature itself. Whether this warrants an upgrade or an downgrade is irrelevant. Of course, it's going to be case-by-case, depending on the story - some of the larger mythologies have a considerable number of authors that have different views on the cosmology - but most Pre-Hellenistic mythologies (<300 B.C) had very consistent cosmologies, which I'm going to detail on an extensive blog I'm writing on the subject.

Y'all probably know what I'm getting at anyway, though.

Addendum: Since chose a relatively poor time to post this (I'll have to go to sleep shortly after doing so), any questions or reservations are probably not gonna get answered instantly.
 
I agree obviously.

Really minor nitpick, Dante Alighieri's whole Divine Comedy reflects his view of the universe, not just the "Inferno" bit.
 
This seems fine to me, but it is very hard to revise all of the profiles in practice, and given the problems with several contradictory accounts of myths, it is hard to properly tier them in the first place, so some people think that we shouldn't feature them at all.
 
It wouldn't really be that difficult. Once we reached a consensus, it'd take at most an hour or two for even a single admin to update all relevant profiles using the Editing Script. We'd be able to update entire arrays of profiles within seconds using that method.
 
I do not understand. An editing script for revising each separate mythological cosmology?
 
Yes I know, but how would that help us to individually analyse each of the mythological settings?
 
I don't understand why we should use the misinterpretations of cosmology when the mythologies are meant to refer to our real-world cosmologies, regardless of how misunderstood they were at the time.
 
Never mind. I may have expressed my intentions poorly originally.
 
Cropfist said:
I don't understand why we should use the misinterpretations of cosmology when the mythologies are meant to refer to our real-world cosmologies, regardless of how misunderstood they were at the time.
Every single mythology out there dedicates multiple paragraphs to explaining or hinting at their cosmology (which is pretty much multiple variations of the same thing to be honest). There's absolutely no reason to ignore that, and doing so forces us to introduce headcanon into the story.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes I know, but how would that help us to individually analyse each of the mythological settings?
We wouldn't really need to spend a huge amount of time talking about the issue, considering the general derivative-ness of mythologies and the existence of multiple short, easy-to-read essays by scholars on the matter detaling the specifics of certain mythologies, such as Egyptian, Greek, Norse and etc. This would only be a problem for the more obscure mythologies.

Anyway, I am planning to create an immense cohesive blog post going over the most popular and relevant examples on the matter that I believe could act as the general guideline and make the subject more accessible and easy to understand.

There's also no hurry to get anything done.
 
I support this idea. It has always bothered me that many mythology profiles on this wiki only seem to assume the cosmology is correct as far as it would be under modern values and beliefs.

I understand it's not perfectly comparable, but it's an odd contrast to how all other verses on the wiki are treated.
 
Okay. Thank you for helping out.

However, we will have to move to another forum soon, so there technically is a bit of a hurry.
 
These mytholgies were believed to be very well true historical accounts that really happened, so when Apollo moves the sun (which was simply not as measured at the time), he was meant to move our real life sun, not a fictionalized different alternate universe sun. It sounds like saying a character with a planet busting attack should not be planet level because they are unaware the attack can destroy a planet.
 
No offense at all to you, but that analogy you just used is terrible. I don't even know where to begin with it.

Let's imagine someone made a TV series which was all about an alternate universe where the Earth was flat. Imagine it blatantly shows the Earth being flat from external shots multiple times, people are aware of it being flat, astronomers calculated the mass of their flat earth, and etc...yet whenever someone speaks of planet-busting, we still make them 5-B based off of the GBE of a round Earth.

Your first intinct would be to say "this is freakin bullshit", and you'd be right.

Mythologies are no different.

No matter how much we have been taught differently, back in these days people thought and wrote otherwise. We can not, nor should we force our headcanon into the text and ignore both the cultural context and what it actually says in-universe.
 
As is obvious I agree with Kep on this. Like, you are speaking about the nature of what happens in these mythologies like they describe or are entirely compatible with thet physical reality of our universe and so, using realistic measures makes total sense.

I don't remember any shield in the sky called Svalinn protecting us from the sun or a wolf that wants to eat it. Why exactly do you assume modern constants remain in the face of obvious discrepancies?
 
Why is it more like an alt. universe where Earth is flat rather than our universe where everyone thinks Earth is flat when it's actually not?
 
Because it's not our universe, simple as that. It's a fictional story that was once believed to be true by people in the distant past, but no longer is. Said fictional story blatantly describes a flat-earth cosmology in detail. Our personal heads being influenced by modern cosmology and thus being prone to forcing a different cosmology into the text doesn't override that.
 
I still agree with Kepekley on this. Even they believed these stories to be real a long time ago, they are fictional, and use models that were believed to be true back then. Denying the fact that those models exist in the stories presented in favour of modern models of belief is completely unreasonable.
 
I am actually honestly confused. The fact they describe reality as it was thought to be by these old civilizafions doesn't... why in hell would it exactly get overrided by "actual" reality as we understand the universe better?

Cool, it was based on reality, and so is fantasy series number 100 where a dude can train enough that he can reflect kinetic energy through pure skill. Do we suddenly say that is bullshit and say he can't do that because it's based on reality? I sure hope we don't. The fact people weren't just inspired and thought the world worked like this changes exactly nothing, a completely different world structure shouldn't ever be translated to our reality willy nilly and disregarding context because of that.
 
I agree with most of what you're saying, but for the Dante Inferno part. Are you trying to say that the scientific consensus was that they didn't know what the shape of the Earth was, and they also didn't know what the size of the planet was with any real accuracy? (If you're trying to say that, then that would be completely wrong), Or are you just saying they didn't really know just how big the cosmos was?

I'm not quite sure what you were meaning with it.
 
Err... Part of the issue is back in those times, its debatable as to whether the universe is supposed to be infinite or if the stars in the night sky are just some sparkly lights we're seeing in the sky.

Of course some size references from old times can be a good start. Like this for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Sizes_and_Distances_(Aristarchus)

Apparently the moon to the Greeks is larger than the moon we know today, yet the sun's slightly smaller than flippin' Saturn for some reason.
 
Giygas3 said:
I agree with most of what you're saying, but for the Dante Inferno part. Are you trying to say that the scientific consensus was that they didn't know what the shape of the Earth was, and they also didn't know what the size of the planet was with any real accuracy? (If you're trying to say that, then that would be completely wrong), Or are you just saying they didn't really know just how big the cosmos was?

I'm not quite sure what you were meaning with it.
Yes and no.

Prior to the Post-Socratic Greek philosophers (300-500 B.C), no one knew the Earth was a sphere (except Pythagoras), and even then:

  • 1. Only the educated people/scholars were aware of this fact (with the possible exception of sailors/mariners), and those people constituted an infinitesimal portion of Greece's population.
  • 2. This belief took a long time to spread to the rest of Europe - and by that I mean several hundred years - and an even longer time to spread to Asia.
  • 3. Uneducated/normal people went on believing the Earth was flat until Christianity was founded and the churches began providing education to the masses as a whole, and this was thousands of years after most mythologies, and half a milennium after the Classical Greek period.
  • 4. Even after all of the above, people who had no contact with the developed European world, such as the Germanic (Norse/Scandinavian) and Celtic peoples, carried on thinking the Earth was flat.
Regarding Dante Alighieri, I was highlighting the fact that his Divine Comedy quite clearly describes a Ptolemaic cosmology - ie, a geocentric spherical earth.
 
Flashlight237 said:
Err... Part of the issue is back in those times, its debatable as to whether the universe is supposed to be infinite or if the stars in the night sky are just some sparkly lights we're seeing in the sky.

Of course some size references from old times can be a good start. Like this for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Sizes_and_Distances_(Aristarchus)

Apparently the moon to the Greeks is larger than the moon we know today, yet the sun's slightly smaller than flippin' Saturn for some reason.
Some cosmologies and mythologies do describe infinite universe models (thought not in the way you'd think), so you're partially correct there.

I'm well aware of Aristarchus, but:

  • 1. His theories were widely rejected by contemporary philosophers.
  • 2. His works were published decades after the spherical Earth had become an established fact in the educated Greek thought, and thousands of years after most of the ancient mythological texts.
  • 3. As I said above, most of the scientifical discoveries of Classical/Hellenistic Greece remained completely unknown to the rest of the population at large.
 
1. His theories were widely rejected by contemporary philosophers.
Does that part even matter? People rejected Copernicus saying the sun is in the center of the universe an entire millenia after Ptolemy re-emphasized the Earth was in the center of the universe and look what became of Copernicus' idea.
 
Yes, it does, since myth writers wrote the myths based off of what was common knowledge at the time.
 
Ok, so I'm a little confused here. Is Mythology considered to be part of our universe? If it is then there can be downgrades. If Mythology is considered as an alternative universe which has their own laws of physics, then they would be scaled on what they knew and there would be no downgrades.
 
What do you mean?

You got your comment backwards. If they are an alternate universe, then there will be downgrades (and upgrades, depending on stuff like "infinite lands/underworld" whatnot). If we were to consider them as taking place in our universe, there wouldn't be downgrades.
 
Kepekley23 said:
What do you mean?
You got your comment backwards. If they are an alternate universe, then there will be downgrades (and upgrades, depending on stuff like "infinite lands/underworld" whatnot). If we were to consider them as taking place in our universe, there wouldn't be downgrades.
But why? If they are taking place in our universe, they would have no reason to assume that the universe is bigger than what they see, since they don't know the existence of planets and galaxies beyond the stars that they see due to the fact that they had no means to find out. After years of technical advancements we were able to discover all the planets in the solar systems as well as the galaxies close to ours.
 
I'm not sure if you're actually understanding what I'm trying to say at all at this point.
 
You're repeating my exact point as if I were arguing otherwise, so I don't think you are getting it.
 
Basically, most Mythologies are based on the common consensus of the world at that time.

So, for example, the Tale about how the Jade Emperor places the literal Milky Way inbetween his daughter and her husband, is based on what the Chinese though of the World at that time.

Same with the Greeks and any other myth.
 
Well, this suggestion seems to be accepted, but to practically apply it can be difficult.
 
Udlmaster said:
Basically, most Mythologies are based on the common consensus of the world at that time.
So, for example, the Tale about how the Jade Emperor places the literal Milky Way inbetween his daughter and her husband, is based on what the Chinese though of the World at that time.

Same with the Greeks and any other myth.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the milky way infinite in size In their myth, then there was the greater universe encompassing it?
 
If it was or it wasn't isn't quite the point, is the surrouding context that defines what conceptualization the people of the time had of the things they named even if they hold correlation to our universe which we understand better than they did at that point. Any actual fine tuning will come after the blog if there's anyone knowledgeable for any of the mythologies Kep can't cover in his blog.
 
PowerToScale said:
Udlmaster said:
Basically, most Mythologies are based on the common consensus of the world at that time.
So, for example, the Tale about how the Jade Emperor places the literal Milky Way inbetween his daughter and her husband, is based on what the Chinese though of the World at that time.

Same with the Greeks and any other myth.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the milky way infinite in size In their myth, then there was the greater universe encompassing it?
Yeah, which is weird Heaven Holds multiple infinite sized places.

The dragon realms are an infinite set of realms.
 
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