Medaka Box All Fiction Upgrades and Downgrades

[Agnaa]

This CRT comes entirely from the recently translated second chapter of the first Good Loser Kumagawa novel. So if you want to read that first, go ahead, all scans will be sourced from there.

First the downgrade. Currently Kumagawa's range is Universal with All Fiction, however an important limit is mentioned here. Kumagawa can only use All Fiction on things within his line of sight. This is why the important item being at the bottom of a pool is an issue, he can't see it so he can't use All Fiction to help him get it. We know this doesn't apply to his screws from the manga, so only AF's range needs to be changed. This change also affects Medaka.

Now the upgrades. During the chapter Ajimu created a law that only a hero would be able to move the Hero's Sword. Saki describes this as being the second barrier of security, but suggests that Kumagawa could nullify it using All Fiction, and later says it has to be broken with All Fictio. While Kumagawa himself never affirms that All Fiction can erase laws, he never shoots it down or gives any other explanation for how he moved the Hero's Sword in the end. Therefore Kumagawa should get Law Manipulation through All Fiction.

Secondly, Kumagawa suggested that he could erase the concept of time with All Fiction, making it so that his time limit never arrives. This is another concept that All Fiction can erase, but I'm not sure if it should count as Time Manipulation or not, I'd like some input on this.

Thirdly, as part of solving the puzzle, Kumagawa made the temperature of the pool nothing, supercooling it. This would obviously count as Heat Manipulation, but I'd like some input on whether it's Absolute Zero or not.

And finally, since I'm not exactly sure how we treat stuff like this, should we assume that Medaka can come up with all these applications of All Fiction? If so, all of these upgrades should apply to her too.

Also, you may have noticed that there's some new abilities for Ajimu here. Since it's already a thing, I'll post about those in her profile remake thread.

 

[Udlmaster]

That would be an Anti-feat for Kumagawa's Range, however, consistently he's got Universal range.

 

[Agnaa]

He's only actually shown Universal range once (I don't think you can call that consistency), when erasing colour from the world. But that could be explained as colour already being in his eyesight, and erasing that concept simply erased it from all of the universe. Similar to how he suggests he can erase the concept of time here.

Since it's one feat for one feat, I think we should go for the explanation which accounts for both feats, which is line of sight range.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Erasing the concept of time counts as both conceptual manipulation and time manipulation.

It seems a bit weird that Kumagawa can only erase things in his line sight if he can erase the concept of time tho.

Making the temperature of something nothing could count as "possibly Absolute Zero" imo.

This should definetly apply to Medaka.

 

[Agnaa]

I think you could reason that "time" is within Kumagawa's perception, and thus he could make it nothing.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

That seems a bit weird, but then again, so is Medaka Box in general.

 

[The_Causality]

Universal range probably only apply to Conceptual Erasure, not the "targeting's range" I guess.

Erasing the very Concept of Time is Conceptual Manipulation (type 3)

That's not Law Manipulation, it's just that his Erasure can erase Laws.

If making the temperature of pooling "zero" then Heat Manipulation is fine, not sure for Absolute Zero.

Pretty cool upgrade for the looser.

 

[Agnaa]

@Causality That's kind of what I was getting at with the range.

Shouldn't being able to turn laws to nothing still count as Law Manipulation?

@Crimson Udl Are you two fine with everything else that you haven't commented on?

 

[The_Causality]

IMO no need to puts Law Manipulation via capable of erasing laws, it's Causality Erasure which work on laws, we could just add that he is able to turn law into nothing on All Fiction's description.

 

[Agnaa]

I'd rather not because we don't treat his Conceptual Manipulation that way, but I could make that compromise.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Idk about the range downgrade, erasing color from the universe, erasing time, and the statement about him erasing the universe if All Fiction was just allowed to go wild point more towards universal than this one anti feat

I agree with the rest of the stuff though.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, the statement about erasing time was the next thing he said after explaining the range limit. I don't think those two things are meant to contradict each other.

It also feels a little weird to me to call it an anti feat when it's an explanation of how it works rather than a feat of it just failing to work, but I guess that's just the terminology we use.

 

[Udlmaster]

He's only actually shown Universal range once (I don't think you can call that consistency), when erasing colour from the world. But that could be explained as colour already being in his eyesight, and erasing that concept simply erased it from all of the universe. Similar to how he suggests he can erase the concept of time here.

Problem is, is that Kumagawa can also erase things he cannot see like all fictioning his own death.

And he also removed colours multiple times in the scene, removing them individually

 

[Agnaa]

All Fictioning his own death is passive. It gets around other requirements like him having to be conscious and not panicking. I can see it being an exception.

I don't think we should consider that 14 separate feats, they're all essentially the same feat done in the same scene.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa seems to make sense here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The range stuff seems pretty incoherent with some events (him erasing the keyholes against Zenkichi, him erasing everyone's memories). Also Kumagawa already proven that his powers can be used without seeing his opponents.

 

[Oloserian]

Not sure I agree with law manipulation. In some sense he already has it (causality manipulation is the manipulation of the laws of cause and effect), but we tend not to give characters law manipulation just for having causality manipulation.

The fact that All Fiction's causality manipulation can also affect the causality of laws doesn't make it anything other than just causality manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Oloserian makes a good point.

 

[Agnaa]

@YuriAkuto He could see Zenkichi and the bracelet when erasing the keyhole. Erasing everyone's memories is a good point but that was done off-screen, we don't know the mechanic (if he erased them all at once, or individually) or if he saw them when erasing.

@Oloserian I just don't really see the difference between giving Law Manip for erasing a law and giving Concept Manip for erasing a concept (color, time). I'd rather both stay or go, but I mostly want it acknowledged as a feat in AF's description.

 

[Oloserian]

@Agnaa

All Fiction seems to be a mixture what we consider conversion to non-existance (a subset of void manipulation) and causality manipulation. It just happens that is also capable of affecting concepts and laws, not that its the specific manipulation of either of those things.

I agree that there isn't much of a difference between giving him concept manipulation and law manipulation in these circumstances, and actually think he shouldn't get either.

My suggestion would be to perhaps leave a note on his profile explaining that his All Fiction is capable of erasing concepts and laws, despite him not having the ability to manipulate them per se.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm i haven't read the chapter, but there is something to consider:

1. All Fiction getting better

It's possible and we've seen it when it eventually gained Non-Fiction. So it's possible that he just "grew" out of this restriction eventually.

2. All Fiction erased stuff like Hansode's memories, he erased zenkichi even though he wasn't looking at him iirc etc.

 

[Agnaa]

@Oloserian That's fair, and I'm fine with the profile being handled that way. But if we do that, should Kumagawa still get heat manip/absolute zero or not?

@Earl 1. That is very possible, but he gained Non-Fiction very late into the story. All of his universal feats/statements (even though I think these are consistent with LoS targeting) were from around the time he was at Suisou. If he no longer has a line of sight restriction after non-fiction I don't know what feats we'd use for his range.

2. Hansode's memories were from before he got Non-Fiction. From this sca I think erasing Zenkichi was reasonably in vision.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. No no. I don't mean WHEN he got non fiction. I meant all fiction CAN improve. So it's possible that this was a restriction in the suisou days, but not when the manga took place as he could have improved all fiction in that time or just gotten better at using it.

2. Universal range will stay, cus that's his range. At best it will be a restriction. So he can erase anything from the universe but he has to have some form of line of sight with it. Also zenkichi was behind him at the moment, beyond 180* from Kumar's vision. He also removed memories out of everyone in the school without line of sight so...

 

[Oloserian]

@Agnaa

By this logic, no. It would fit in the same category as the concept and law manipulation as "things All Fiction affects", they should definitely be added to the feat section though.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Agnaa
By this logic, no. It would fit in the same category as the concept and law manipulation as "things All Fiction affects", they should definitely be added to the feat section though.

Actually we do those things. Even if it's causality manip, if it can affect laws we put it as "law manipulation" cus technically even though he's using causality he's still manipulating laws.

 

[Oloserian]

Actually we do those things. Even if it's causality manip, if it can affect laws we put it as "law manipulation" cus technically even though he's using causality he's still manipulating laws.

Law Manipulation is the ability to control Laws, a system of rules imposed by an higher authority.

This power allows the user to control a specific law, while high-level users can rewrite, control, redefine and create almost any law they want, or even enforce their own laws upon reality.

-------

Kumagawa cannot do this. The only law All Fiction can control is causality manipulation, which affects everything, including laws. We do not give law manipulation for having causality manipulation.

Cases in point:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Idea_of_Evil

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lancer_(Fate/stay_night)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gentle_Pull

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We don't give law manip if they can control causality, but if said causality can be used to manipulate laws then yes.

 

[Agnaa]

1. Ahh okay. Fair enough, should a "possibly limited to eyesight" note be added to range then?

2. Yeah, 100% agree on the universal range. But I don't think Zenkichi was behind, Zenkichi was right next to him, and Kumagawa was even behind the panel before, but it is hard to tell since it's a manga. Like I said earlier, I don't think we can make that claim with certainty since the memory erasing happened off-screen. I elaborated here.

I think there's enough doubt here to give the eyesight restriction as a "possibly", thoughts?

@Oloserian Kumagawa can do that. Part of controlling laws is being able to erase laws. We don't give law manipulation just for causality manipulation, but we do give it for causality manipulation that lets characters erase laws.

 

[Oloserian]

If he is using causality manipulation or void manipulation to cause a law to stop existing, how does that remotely fit our definiton?

" the ability to control Laws, a system of rules imposed by an higher authority."

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Agnaa

As i said above "it's possible that All Fiction upgraded out of it". So needless to say i agree with "possibly limited to eyesight".

 

[Oloserian]

@Agnaa

Being able to manipulate laws logically includes erasing laws, but do not think it is logical to say that erasing laws through another ability amounts to law manipulation.

It is inconsistent with our definition of law manipulation. It is similar to saying that killing a character through energy projection should grant you death manipulation, because you were capable of inducing their death.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Erasing Laws is just an abstract type of EE.

 

[Agnaa]

@Oloserian It fits the definition because it controls laws by erasing them.

To counter your example of energy projection/death manip, there are characters that have Mind Manipulation through Data Manipulation.

 

[The_Causality]

You guys should probably make a thread about our standards of how we treat hax, this will avoid more derailing.

 

[The_Causality]

I've do it for you guys

 

[Antvasima]

I will check.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean can't we just make the smart choice and put it as

Causality Manipulation (it allows kumagawa to erase people, concepts, time, laws and more)

And save each other brain cells, time and useless debate?

 

[The_Causality]

IMO no need to puts Law Manipulation via capable of erasing laws, it's Causality Erasure which work on laws, we could just add that he is able to turn law into nothing on All Fiction's description.

^That's literally what I've proposed.

 

[Oloserian]

IMO no need to puts Law Manipulation via capable of erasing laws, it's Causality Erasure which work on laws, we could just add that he is able to turn law into nothing on All Fiction's description.

^That's literally what I've proposed.

Completely agree. It's also what I've proposed.

 

[TriforcePower1]

^That's literally what I've proposed.
Completely agree. It's also what I've proposed.

This is fine for me

Also, I would say AZ is reasonable. If he erased the temperature of the water, it's quite clearly AZ.