Master Sword changes + possibly High 6-A characters getting upgraded to 4-A/Low 2-C

[Dust_Collector]

So currently we rate the Master Sword in Skyward Sword as being more powerful than it is in other games (Barring amps like the Golden Sword or it being paired with the Triforce of Courage), treating it as the "true" Master Sword while in games like Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess it became weaker and, I dunno, fake I guess. This is something we seem to have completely made up with no basis from the games or the guidebooks and I have no idea how or when we came to the conclusion that it randomly became weaker after Skyward Sword, nothing suggests or shows that to be the case in the series.

So it's a simple enough thing I'm proposing, unless we have actual proof of the Master Sword somehow getting significantly weaker between SS and OOT, we should take the Master Sword and True Master Sword (Skyward Sword) keys and merge them together into just 1 Master Sword key (No need for the "true" part of the name) with the 4-A, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C rating that we currently use for it's Skyward Sword key.

This would also affect anyone who is currently High 6-A via scaling to the Master Sword, although I think we should hold off on upgrading every single one of the High 6-A characters since many of them are standard temple bosses and they'd need some good discussion about what they scale to, for now it would be best to focus on the Master Sword itself as well as major villains such as Calamity Ganon instead of being hasty and upgrading every single High 6-A boss monster in the series to cosmic levels of power.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I somewhat agree that there appears to be no statement, I find it extremely loopy to be downscaling all the various Temple bosses from Hylia or Ganondorf.

I mean, there is technically a "True Master Sword" form in Wind Waker, which Link used against Ganondorf in that game; there are multiple instances that indicate the Master Sword getting weaker from time to time; it fluctuates often. In OoT and Twilight Princess, there's no specific statements, and there does exist Master Sword and True Master Sword forms separately within Skyward Sword alone. Though, so against merging those keys outright, but it can be tricky which key is used in OoT and TP. In a Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds, there are both 3 forms of the Master Sword. The Level 3 Sword from ALBW also has the same design and description as the Golden Sword from ALttP for example.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree that the Master Sword in OOT, TP, and the initial stages in the downfall games should be about the same, they're all treated as the base of the blade and nothing implies it got weaker, and the times it did get weaker it's made blatant as **** it did like in BOTW and WW.
Though as said in the OP itself, there's a difference between the Master Sword's base form and standard power and the Swords while in conjunction with a roided out Link or something like that.
As such I'm gonna hold off on agreeing with basically every temple boss ever in those games scaling to Tier 4 to 3 just yet, but I do agree that the Master Sword's base and standard power should be uniform in far more games then it is credited.

 

[Dust_Collector]

there are multiple instances that indicate the Master Sword getting weaker from time to time; it fluctuates often.

It doesn't fluctuate often, it only becomes weaker twice. Once in Wind Waker and another in BOTW, besides those two games the series doesn't even hint that the Master Sword becomes weaker than it when it first became complete unless there's specific circumstances that cause it to lose power like Ganondorf preventing the sages keeping the Master Sword at full power with their prayers in the Wind Waker.

In OoT and Twilight Princess, there's no specific statements, and there does exist Master Sword and True Master Sword forms separately within Skyward Sword alone. Though, so against merging those keys outright, but it can be tricky which key is used in OoT and TP.

The Master Sword and True Master Sword being separate forms in Skyward Sword is true, but they only call it the True Master Sword once it's fully forged and has the same design it normally does in games like OOT and TP while before it's still explicitly not complete yet. The more accurate way to describe the two forms it has in Skyward Sword would be incomplete and complete as opposed to using terms like true, but instead of merging the keys I think calling the current Master Sword key the Incomplete Master Sword would be fine. I don't think it's tricky to say which key is being used in games like OOT and TP, like I said there's nothing that even hints that the Master Sword become weaker in those games or reverted into a state where it's no longer considered complete or "true", we'd have to just assume it's weaker with no reasoning.

As such I'm gonna hold off on agreeing with basically every temple boss ever in those games scaling to Tier 4 to 3 just yet

Yeah I gotta admit scaling almost every temple boss to this level is kinda fucky, so I'm going to make some changes to my original post about holding off on scaling every single High 6-A character we have to Tier 4 to 3 for the moment.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

IMO some of the proposals might still create more problems then it does solve, but I'm willing to listen to more updates regarding Temple Boss stuff.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I agree on the master sword revision for games like OOT/TP.

My question is for games like BOTW, in the beginning the master sword is blatantly shown to be way weaker, but will the upgraded master sword in BOTW (The one you get from the DLC) scale to tier 4 and 3??? And if so, who should scale??

 

[Dust_Collector]

My question is for games like BOTW, in the beginning the master sword is blatantly shown to be way weaker, but will the upgraded master sword in BOTW (The one you get from the DLC) scale to tier 4 and 3??? And if so, who should scale??

Yeah the upgraded Master Sword would scale since the upgrade is just returning the sword to full power. It'd at least scale to Link and Calamity Ganon, and likely the blights as well (Even without the DLC the Master Sword automatically returns to full power when fighting them), Age of Calamity also supports them scaling since they put up a decent fight against Link at the end of the game and they can take the energy beams from the Divine Beasts at other points in the game, same energy beams that can harm Calamity Ganon (Although the blights obviously take more damage from the beams than Ganon does)

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Yeah the upgraded Master Sword would scale since the upgrade is just returning the sword to full power. It'd at least scale to Link and Calamity Ganon, and likely the blights as well (Even without the DLC the Master Sword automatically returns to full power when fighting them), Age of Calamity also supports them scaling since they put up a decent fight against Link at the end of the game and they can take the energy beams from the Divine Beasts at other points in the game, same energy beams that can harm Calamity Ganon (Although the blights obviously take more damage from the beams than Ganon does)

I think Astor should scale then. I dunno if the champions may scale as they ultimately died in Botw and were about to in AOC

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

I think Astor should scale then. I dunno if the champions may scale as they ultimately died in Botw and were about to in AOC

The champions definitely don't scale. They got pretty much stomped by the blights, even with additional help from their descendants.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah there's little reason to scale the champions to this.

Also bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

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[Dust_Collector]

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[Dust_Collector]

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[Dust_Collector]

I want my tier 2 Calamity Ganon come on

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

I mean, I don't know how much my input matters, but I feel like Calamity Ganon, BoTW/AoC Link, BoTW/Aoc Zelda, and maybe Maz Koshia, The Blights, The Divine Beasts, and Terrako or Astor should scale to the Tier 4/3/2 stuff.

Spoiler: Reasoning

Calamity Ganon because he was able to fight all of the champions + their descendants, BOTW/AOC Link with the awakened Master Sword, and Awakened Zelda all at once.
BoTW/AoC Link because he has the awakened Master Sword, which should probably be the strongest version of the Base Master Sword
BoTW/AoC Zelda because she fought Calamity Ganon for 100 years + She is implied to have the whole Triforce.
Maz Koshia, because he fought an endgame link, and recieved power from Hylia.
The Blights because all four of them at once could overwhelm Link even with the Awakened Master Sword + Windblight posed a threat to Vah Medoh.
The Divine Beasts because they can harm Calamity Ganon. Also, Vah Medoh can defeat Windblight.
Terrako because their self destruction, together with Zelda was able to break down Calamity Ganon's barrier that was making him invulnerable to the party's attacks.
Astor because he fought with Link numerous times, and he likely draws power from Calamity Ganon.

 

[Dust_Collector]

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[Dust_Collector]

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[Dust_Collector]

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[Dust_Collector]

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[Chariot190]

Maybe it'd be best to start off small? Simply get the scaling done and ignore the temple bosses for now?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Maybe it'd be best to start off small? Simply get the scaling done and ignore the temple bosses for now?

Yeah ignoring the temple bosses for the moment would be best.

 

[Dust_Collector]

bump

 

[Chariot190]

Well for what it is worth, I agree that the Master Sword shouldn't be weaker in games like OOT. It should only be weaker in games where it's actually stated to be weaker. Which is like what? Only BOTW and WW? Saying it isn't at least base strength in other games is complete conjecture not founded by anything.

 

[Dust_Collector]

It should only be weaker in games where it's actually stated to be weaker. Which is like what? Only BOTW and WW?

Yeah those two are the only games where it explicitly gets weaker until their respective Links restore it back to full power.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@AshenCrow777 @The_real_cal_howard @CrimsonStarFallen @Mariogoods @TriforcePower1 @Elizhaa @Migue79 @Starter_Pack your input would be appreciated here.

Anyway, we're going to need something to scale off the mid level temple bosses off of and would get super circular to make all of them scale from True Master Sword. I recall some backup feats was Argorok's storm calculated in the Tier 7 department and the Medallions from ALttP had 6-B calculations. But I'll see what others have to say.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

@AshenCrow777 @The_real_cal_howard @CrimsonStarFallen @Mariogoods @TriforcePower1 @Elizhaa @Migue79 @Starter_Pack your input would be appreciated here.

Anyway, we're going to need something to scale off the mid level temple bosses off of and would get super circular to make all of them scale from True Master Sword. I recall some backup feats was Argorok's storm calculated in the Tier 7 department and the Medallions from ALttP had 6-B calculations. But I'll see what others have to say.

I can help if needed

Anyway, Argorok's storm should be somewhere in 7-B/Low 7-B

 

[Dust_Collector]

I recall some backup feats was Argorok's storm calculated in the Tier 7 department and the Medallions from ALttP had 6-B calculations. But I'll see what others have to say.

Yeah the Medallion feats from ALTTP would be good to use for the temple bosses, and if not then at worst they'd 6-C via upscaling from the low level High 7-A+ bosses.

 

[Seol404]

Not sure about the scaling for any dungeon bosses, but when the Master Sword is weakened there is always a visual indicator of it being such. (The wings being retracted for example.) If it appears as the full sword than there is no reason to assume it's weaker unless we are told otherwise.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So here's the Ether Medallion feat from ALTTP, it's 6-B+ and I'm pretty sure this is what we put temple bosses at before making them High 6-A.

 

[Elizhaa]

Not sure about the scaling for any dungeon bosses, but when the Master Sword is weakened there is always a visual indicator of it being such. (The wings being retracted for example.) If it appears as the full sword than there is no reason to assume it's weaker unless we are told otherwise.

I agree. From what I remember, Link gets the Master Sword before fighting Argorok.

 

[Elizhaa]

I found the thread where the High 6-A scaling was accepted; I am fine still with the scaling for High 6-A there.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I agree. From what I remember, Link gets the Master Sword before fighting Argorok.

Yep

 

[Dust_Collector]

Anyhoo, I'd like to shift focus from what the temple bosses scale to and focus more on making the Master Sword being 4-A to Low 2-C in all it's appearances (Except for the parts in Wind Waker and Breath of the Wild where it's briefly depowered) before having a more in depth discussion about whether we should make all those temple bosses scale to it or scale to them to lower tier 6 stuff in the event putting them on the same level as Hylia and Demise seems like too much.