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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

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So I don't think either side has much more to add in regards to new arguments, so I'll just quickly tag everyone who agrees with the Ganon and Majora stuff being removed and hopefully anyone who hasn't commented since their inital agreements can quickly pop in and say if the new arguments in favour of keeping them have swayed them or if they still think Warren makes more sense.
I-I did have more arguments for Ganon's feat though...
 
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Oh...

I didn't know that ooops. I just edited my previous message so it's only for Majora (Until Ryu says he has more to say about it and then I look like a even bigger fool).
 
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Warren_Valion

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@Dust_Collector
Thanks for this, mate.

And yeah, neither do I.

I find it exceptionally strange that the wiki doesn't have some sort of system for accepting or denying changes to profiles on an indexing wiki, but does have a system for when fights can be considered accepted.
 

Warren_Valion

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@Warren_Valion You specifically called my arguments lunacy and insane, and then proceeded to call my point of view irrelevant, you did not just say you thought they were logically wrong like your claiming. If all you said was you thought the logic was off id have no problem with that, but implying that my arguments indicate insanity and lunacy, and then calling other peoples perspectives irrelevant is an outright insult. As a staff you should just own up to when you make a mistake like that, the fact your choosing to still insist you said nothing insulting or wrong is the issue at this point.

In context the "tainting" of the Universe is referred to being the same as the changes he made to the planet and everything else, and it is also confirmed this includes space and time and maintaining said changes. So I disagree, I think it could qualify for Low 2-C.

Manipulating space and time with his power, especially on a Universal scale since its said his influence was similar across the Universe should be considered as potentially Low 2-C.

I don't know that character well, but I don't see an indication his influence effects the entire Universe, Majora's "tainting" and influence is confirmed to do so like on the planet across the entire Universe. If it is just local space and time manip, or just a chain reaction from altering an event of course I agree though. But that's not the case with Majora.

So I disagree. The evidence states he warped the Universe just like the planet, and implies he can manipulate space and time on a Universal scale as well. Also he maintains this warped reality across the Universe, not just planet since we know his effects were similar across the Universe from the quotes. So I stand by the fact removing low 2-C altogether would be a mistake, and make the profile less complete in the process.
Your argument is the logic you are adhering to the current situation. Calling a statement insane, means it is not sane, i.e. not in tune with reality. Therefore, your argument has no logical base and thus no standing to hold itself upon. So you saying that you hold to such an argument is what I called irrelevant (because I find there is no logical basis to that argument), not that your personal perspective in its totality is irrelevant.

You are not defined by your arguments. Please learn to differentiate between when someone insults your points and you as a person. Ryu, I never called you directly crazy - I said your arguments make no sense because you are cutting context from these statements and stitching them together in an incoherent manner to create context that just doesn't work.

The reason why I am insisting that I said nothing insulting is because I didn't. I am the first person alive that will admit when I make make a mistake or act irrationally in anger, I have done it dozens of times in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

So please stop strawmanning me with this.



The context of 'tainting' is the swamp water in Woodfall Region, which goes against any implications of Low 2-C. The most logical conclusion by "like everything else in the alternate universe" in that quote would be all the events that go wrong in the land of Termina due to Majora - which is all of them. Majora is responsible for all of it; bringing the moon down, turning Kafei into a child, corrupting the deities and the living conditions of each region of the game, and many more.

But there is no other celestial mishappens that Majora causes barring bringing the moon down; there is nothing that implicates that he is 3-A or Low 2-C.

Also, it should be mentioned that the only reason why Majora was even given the "Likely Low 2-C" was because of this statement saving he is affecting time, in addition to the other two statements which implied that Majora was controlling the universe (So 3-A plus time = Likely Low 2-C). And with those two statements' context being revealed to not refer to an entire universe, but the location of the world that player explores in that alternate universe, then the statement about Majora having influence over time doesn't hold enough credibility on its own to maintain any such rating whatsoever (6-B or 5-B plus time =/= Likely/Possibly Low 2-C).

Hell, even the context surrounding the "influence" over "space and time" quote refers to "Everyone's personal life" having taken a turn for the worst due to Majora's "mischief" earlier in that very sentence, grounding that quote at a more human level when exploring the context like the other two quotes do as well.

And no, manipulating Space-Time even on a universal scale is not Low 2-C, destroying or creating a universal space-time continuum is. Manipulating or "having influence" of a space-time continuum is hax, not AP. Most time stops stop the entirety of the universe because time is interconnected with space. With your logic, you are implying that if a character can commit a universal time stop/reveral/acceleration/etc, then that character is Low 2-C - which is not true.

Also tangent, that's because his profile is really shitty, but Hiro is stated to be able to manipulate the entirety of the space-time continuum and is the "Master of Time and Space", just fyi.


So once again, Majora being 3-A (let alone Low 2-C) is not supported by the current quotes used to justify him when you view them under the specific context that they arrive in, and having such on the profiles would be inaccurate.
 
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Warren_Valion

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I am putting my foot down in this debate due to this taking up too much of my time, distracting me from my studies.

If anyone that I am currently debating does not bringing up new points in your rebuttals, then I will ignore them for the sake of not rewriting the paragraphs that I have already written to say the same thing in a slightly different way.

I just don't have time for it currently, and circular debates never end; the only winning move is to not play, so I won't.

Obviously, if you have something new to say, I will respond accordingly.


And personally, if most, or all, the people who agreed with the downgrades view all the current arguments and still agree - I say that they should be considered accepted immediately since the discrepancy between agree and disagree is a 3:1 ratio (for the Majora stuff and nearly so for the Calamity Ganon stuff) - that has to be enough to get something accepted.

@TriforcePower1

Can you link me to the vid that states that quote? If I see that, then I will absolutely disagree with downgrading the Wind Fish.
 
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Is the blood moon topic still going on? If not ignore me, but I can confirm from personal experience that, before and after the blood moon, it visually grows and shrinks in size, undeniably so. By quite a bit too, immediately after the cutscene, if you look up you can see the bloodmoon go from, well, a bloodmoon to becoming tiny again and seemingly getting further away within seconds, by a large degree.
Does this mean Ganon is moving it? Idk, but the moon getting close and further is absolutely a thing that occurs.
 
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Are there any counters to this point?
I guess some people might try and argue it being a outlier. I think the OP tries to imply this since it looks like he claims that the Wind Fish is weaker than base Ganondorf as one of the reasons the feat shouldn't be used, although I don't find the reasoning for that to be very solid.
 
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I guess some people might try and argue it being a outlier. I think the OP tries to imply this since it looks like he claims that the Wind Fish is weaker than base Ganondorf, although I don't find the reasoning for that to be very solid.
Base Ganon? Don't know about that. Maybe ToP Ganon and above, that's reasonable? But base? nah.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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The Wind Fish doesn't really fight anybody and has no anti-feats, so it doesn't really scale to anybody but him.
 

Warren_Valion

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I guess some people might try and argue it being a outlier. I think the OP tries to imply this since it looks like he claims that the Wind Fish is weaker than base Ganondorf as one of the reasons the feat shouldn't be used, although I don't find the reasoning for that to be very solid.
Outlier?

The Wind Fish's only two feats are dreaming to create a world and waking up to destroy it.

As for a comparison to Ganondorf? Where was this stated at all? Why would the Wind Fish be < Base Ganondorf? The feats suggest otherwise.

I don't think those arguments hold any ground, tbh.
 
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For the record, the quotes that directly indicate Universal scale warping on a similar level to the planet, including space time are "...like everything else in the parallel Universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of skullkid wearing Majoras mask" and "...the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time." So it clearly indicates he is warping on a Universal scale similarly to what you see in the planet your on, including space and time.


And of course we know he Maintains this until his death to, showing he is maintaining that warped reality on a Universal+ scale.

Anyway, those are the main reasons he should at least have a possibly Low 2-C, since it clearly is a significant possibility and just simply not mentioning it would be inaccurate.
 
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@Warren_Valion You calling my arguments insane and lunacy is an insult whether you try to use mental gymnastics to justify it or not, saying you think the logic is not sound is very different from saying my arguments indicate mental illnesses. My arguments are not incoherent or indicative of either state of mind, at worst they could be a misinterpretation, and you frankly shouldn't try to diagnose such things publicly anyway even if they were. Clearly you were being offensive by using such terms whether that was your intention or not. Anyway its not a strawman, its completely separate from the revision, I am pointing out that you should not use slurs for mental illness to describe somebody or their points, and calling a persons entire argument or all their points irrelevant is likewise offensive to a lesser degree, like calling somebody Fat, even if you think its true your just stirring the pot by saying it since its not helpful in most cases, and even if you disagree with them, they are not irrelevant since they are a part of the discussion that should be considered.
 
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I think Majora has enough evidence for universal.
Windfish is kinda blatant as well.
Bloodmoon, well, it very clearly moves at high speeds, this in undeniable, but does it scale to Ganon? Can't say so neutral.
 

Warren_Valion

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I think Majora has enough evidence for universal.

Bloodmoon, well, it very clearly moves at high speeds, this in undeniable, but does it scale to Ganon? Can't say so neutral.
What about the evidence presented for Majora do you think constitutes universal? I'll try and tackle them directly.


And no one is saying that the Blood Moon moving isn't happening in the game, it is, obviously.

For clarification, the argument is instead, when looking at the seemingly complete lack of logic of such a feat happening in the first place, with the addition of a lack of any indication that the moon moves or is affected in any way by or during the Blood Moon at all from any in-game texts, line of dialogue, or guide books specifically explaining what the Blood Moon is and what happens during one, makes the implication that the moon isn't actually moving in the world of Breath of the Wild.

That its a game thing, and not a legit story thing, and thus not usable for the profiles.
 
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>What about the evidence presented for Majora do you think constitutes universal? I'll try and tackle them directly.
Just everything together really, being able to warp the entire Terminian universe and corrupt it, it being sustained by him, it being allegedly created by him (kinda vague on its own, ive seen it said to just refer to the land, but in conjunction with other texts its good support), idk just everything together in conjunction seems to portray Majora as a universal to at least some degree. No single statement alone works, but all together? Sets a decent foundation for it.
Though I guess a Likely/Possibly universal works better.

>it is, obviously.

Then what's the issue? It is weird that it isn't mentioned, but if everyone here can agree that it's happening, then that's kinda it. If it happens it happens. Don't know what else to say about that one, weird yeah, but if the thing in question undeniably occurs and is blatant enough to where it's completely visible, it becomes kinda hard to deny.

>That its a game thing, and not a legit story thing, and thus not usable for the profiles.

It's a video game though. It isn't like it's gameplay mechanics like Rattata kicking Arceus' teeth in, its a scripted event outside of any player control (other then memory overflow).
 
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Warren_Valion

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>What about the evidence presented for Majora do you think constitutes universal? I'll try and tackle them directly.
Just everything together really, being able to warp the entire Terminian universe and corrupt it, it being sustained by him, it being allegedly created by him (kinda vague on its own but in conjunction with other texts its good support), idk just everything together in conjunction seems to portray Majora as a universal to at least some degree. No single statement alone works, but all together? Sets a decent foundation for it.
Though I guess a Likely/Possibly universal works better.

>it is, obviously.

Then what's the issue? It is weird that it isn't mentioned, but if everyone here can agree that it's happening, then that's kinda it. If it happens it happens. Don't know what else to say about that one, weird yeah, but if the thing in question undeniably occurs and is blatant enough to where it's completely visible, it becomes kinda hard to deny.
Adding the quotes together to make a statement like, "Majora transforms, sustains, and corrupts everything in the universe including space-time" or something along this line would definitely imply 3-A to Low 2-C, but you only get this line of logic if you strip each quote that is being used of their context, and stitch them together to form a false context - that's disingenuous.

The "Termina" being sustained as according to the Hyrule Encyclopedia quote only refers to people, culture, and individuals - not the entire universe.

Having "influence" over "space-time" or corrupting something isn't AP, its hax. And the context surrounding each quote refers to the planet or country that we see in the game and the people in it - not an entire universal space-time continuum.

You can look at my previous statements for a more in-depth breakdown and analysis of each quote.



The issue is called Ludonarrative Dissonance - the story told by the gameplay and by the game's story conflict with one another. By this logic, Mario should have 9-B durability or lower because he dies instantly to a Goomba just touching him. I can bring up dozens of other examples of this, but for the sake of brevity, I won't.

'If it happens it happens' is not always the case when it comes to video games, and the argument is that the moon moving during the Night of the Red Moon is one of these examples. And thus, it wouldn't be a viable feat that Ganon and others can scale to.
 
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>Adding the quotes together to make a statement like, "Majora transforms, sustains, and corrupts everything in the universe including space-time" or something along this line would definitely imply 3-A to Low 2-C, but you only get this line of logic if you strip each quote that is being used of their context, and stitch them together to form a false context - that's disingenuous.

I didn't do that though? If Majora can corrupt and sustain a universal construct, that implies some degree of universal something, hax or AP, at the very least we know universal is in play here. At the very least, those two are talking about universal. Him creating Termina i'm unsure on, it seems that there's contention on that one, I was under the impression it was talking about the world of termina (world as in parallel dimension, given it's commonly specified as such, even by that name) but there seems to be controversy about that so I'm just considering that as vague backing, not concrete evidence, if at all.

>Having "influence" over "space-time" or corrupting something isn't AP, its hax. And the context surrounding each quote refers to the planet or country that we see in the game and the people in it - not an entire universal space-time continuum.

Didn't Ryu JUST post it saying universal?

>The issue is called Ludonarrative Dissonance - the story told by the gameplay and by the game's story conflict with one another. By this logic, Mario should have 9-B durability or lower because he dies instantly to a Goomba just touching him. I can bring up dozens of other examples of this, but for the sake of brevity, I won't.

That's a false analogy. The moon very clearly and visibly moves, this doesn't effect the player, isn't bound to game mechanics, it just kinda happens. This isn't like Link dying from a fall or a basic ass moblin. This is a scripted sequence that happens a certain way every single time. It is weird that the moon moving isn't mentioned, but that's all it is, weird. It not being mentioned doesn't invalidate its existence. If you want to argue this doesn't scale to Ganon that's different, but this does happen, saying it doesnt actually happen is something I simply cant get behind.
 
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>Ludonarrative Dissonance

Actually, wouldnt this only be that if we were told it didnt happen. Or were told something that contradicts it. It wasnt said, but it not being said isnt a confirmation of it not happening.
 

Warren_Valion

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>Adding the quotes together to make a statement like, "Majora transforms, sustains, and corrupts everything in the universe including space-time" or something along this line would definitely imply 3-A to Low 2-C, but you only get this line of logic if you strip each quote that is being used of their context, and stitch them together to form a false context - that's disingenuous.

I didn't do that though? If Majora can corrupt and sustain a universal construct, that implies some degree of universal something. At the very least, those two are talking about universal. Him creating Termina i'm unsure on, it seems that there's contention on that one, I was under the impression it was talking about the world of termina (world as in parallel dimension, given it's commonly specified as such, even by that name) but there seems to be controversy about that so I'm just considering that as vague backing, not concrete evidence, if at all.

>Having "influence" over "space-time" or corrupting something isn't AP, its hax. And the context surrounding each quote refers to the planet or country that we see in the game and the people in it - not an entire universal space-time continuum.

Didn't Ryu JUST post it saying universal?

>The issue is called Ludonarrative Dissonance - the story told by the gameplay and by the game's story conflict with one another. By this logic, Mario should have 9-B durability or lower because he dies instantly to a Goomba just touching him. I can bring up dozens of other examples of this, but for the sake of brevity, I won't.

That's a false analogy. The moon very clearly and visibly moves, this doesn't effect the player, isn't bound to game mechanics, it just kinda happens. This isn't like Link dying from a fall or a basic ass moblin. This is a scripted sequence that happens a certain way every single time. It is weird that the moon moving isn't mentioned, but that's all it is, weird. It not being mentioned doesn't invalidate its existence. If you want to argue this doesn't scale to Ganon that's different, but this does happen, saying it doesnt actually happen is something I simply cant get behind.
I am not saying that you are doing that specifically, but that to reach those conclusions, that is what needs to be done - this is what my problem with Ryu's logic was.

And no, he didn't. He just posted the part of the quote that is used for the current justification without supplying the proper context for each quote and then he connected these two quotes as if they were just one long quote.

I will go over the quotes:

"When the Skull Kid steals Majora's Mask from a traveling mask salesman, the combination of the Skull Kid’s burdened heart and the evil magic within Majora’s Mask transforms the world into the land of Termina. Termina is a parallel world with its own distinct culture, which is perhaps influenced by Majora’s ancient tribe. This land is also inhabited by races and individuals similar to those found in Hyrule, which were constructed from the Skull Kid's memories and delusions. While many of Hyrule's races, like Gorons and the Zora are present in Termina, the world feels twisted. Different. Full of mechanical advances and watched over by a sinister moon looming large and on course to crush it all."

The Termina that Majora sustained is blatantly referring to the land of Termina's culture, people, and races - not the entire universe.


"By entering it [a tunnel], you'll reach Woodfall, the bog where an ancient Deku temple lies submerged beneath the poison water. The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask."

The context of 'tainting' is the swamp water in Woodfall Region, which implies that by, "like everything else in the alternate universe", it is referring to the events that happen in the land of Termina. The things, as seen in-game, that Majora is responsible for, which is true. All the problems that people have in every region of Termina are due to Majora fucking things up for everyone; bringing the moon down, turning Kafei into a child, corrupting the deities and the living conditions of each region of the game, and more. But this isn't proof of 3-A or Low 2-C.


"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time. In three days, coinciding with the town's Carnival of Time, the moon will crash. Only Link, with his reputation as the Hero of Time, can save the doom land of Termina."

The context surrounding the "influence" over "space and time" quote refers to Termina in the context of what is happening in the game, what is happening on the planet, or the country that the game takes place in, the one that is being struck by the moon - not a universal space-time continuum, similarly to the last quote.

This makes sense considering these quotes are taken from a strategy guide who's sole purpose is to explain things about the game.

So if you take the objects mentioned in that little list, you can find comparisons from the game that they refer to.

Moon = Bringin down the Moon (Obv, lol)

The Heavens = Corrupting the 4 Guardian Deities

Space = The lands that he is corrupting, endless winter, poisoned swamp water, bringing the dead back to life, etc. The space or world that is the land of Termina is what is being physically altered.

Time = The three days until the inevitability of the moon crashing into the planet, even with the ability to keep going back in Time - the land of Termina is doomed with apocalyptic destruction unless you put down Majora, for good

If you want to make an argument that the quote is being more direct in its meaning of "space and time", which is very arguable, it still doesn't matter since having "influence" on "space and time" can mean anything without proper context.

And even if you want to say that the context refers to the entire space-time continuum, it still doesn't matter since manipulating space-time, even on a universal scale, is not a Low 2-C AP feat, destroying or creating a universal space-time continuum is. Manipulating or having "influence" of the space-time continuum is hax, not AP. Most manipulation of time in fiction affects the entirety of the universe because time is interconnected with space, that's why it's called Space-Time.

If you follow this logic, you are implying that if a character can commit a universal time stop/reversal/acceleration/etc, then that character is Low 2-C because they are manipulating or "influencing" "space and time" - which is just not true.



Gameplay Mechanics don't always have to refer to discrepancies in a character's abilities in relation to the story. They can be discrepancies in the world as well.

Hell, this isn't even the first time in Zelda where something like this happens.

  • Approaching Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time after collecting all the Spiritual Stones will make it start raining out of nowhere.
  • If you approach the Forsaken Fortress in the Wind Waker, it will always turn to night time no matter what time of day it is (This is not the Endless Night curse, just FYI), and revert back to day time after you leave.
  • Approaching Hyrule Castle in Twilight Princess does both of these things as it will always change the time of day and weather to a morning that is raining.
These are instances of the world being changed in a specific area to insinuate the atmosphere that Nintendo wants the scene to have - there isn't any proof that Ganon or someone else is the reason why this happens and, they just happen because they are gameplay mechanics. The moon moving during the Blood Moon is likely one of these things.

And since there is no proof of such a thing happening anywhere at all, the "feat" shouldn't be valid.
 
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Gameplay Mechanics don't always have to refer to discrepancies in a character's abilities in relation to the story. They can be discrepancies in the world as well.

Hell, this isn't even the first time in Zelda where something like this happens.

  • Approaching Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time after collecting all the Spiritual Stones will make it start raining out of nowhere.
  • If you approach the Forsaken Fortress in the Wind Waker, it will always turn to night time no matter what time of day it is (This is not the Endless Night curse, just FYI), and revert back to day time after you leave.
  • Approaching Hyrule Castle in Twilight Princess does both of these things as it will always change the time of day and weather to a morning that is raining.
These are instances of the world being changed in a specific area to insinuate the atmosphere that Nintendo wants the scene to have - there isn't any proof that Ganon or someone else is the reason why this happens and, they just happen because they are gameplay mechanics. The moon moving during the Blood Moon is likely one of these things.

And since there is no proof of such a thing happening anywhere at all, the "feat" shouldn't be valid.
Ehm, I think Base Ganondorf has Weather Manipulation for the first one, and we used the second one for the old High 5-A calc lol

Anyway, that’s again a false equivalence. All three of those instances are all caused by the player DOING something. For the Blood Moon, though, it just happens. It’s basically just a cutscene.
 

Warren_Valion

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Ehm, I think Base Ganondorf has Weather Manipulation for the first one, and we used the second one for the old High 5-A calc lol

Anyway, that’s again a false equivalence. All three of those instances are all caused by the player DOING something. For the Blood Moon, though, it just happens. It’s basically just a cutscene.
Will the Zelda wank ever end?

Also, I am pretty sure it was removed as the High 5-A calc because it is too vague to be considered a real feat because there is no logical reason for Ganon to be doing this and that there is nothing in the game saying that he doing this on this thread, the Calamity Ganon feat was also brought up as well but never hit off, but yeah, it kinda goes to prove my point with the similarities in both cases. . . kinda.

And no? You don't do anything, the location is what is different, that isn't affected by your character. Being in a certain position at a certain time (either the Moon or Link) is what causes the effect in the space around you, not any action from the player.

In fact, the Blood Moon's positioning is what I hypothesized could be what triggers the cutscene to play and the world to reset in the first place, but I can't be 100% sure of this unless I see the code for the game myself.


Also, since we are talking about Ganon, I want to mention something against the common rebuttal about the lack of logical reasoning for this feat - said rebuttal to the, "Why would Ganon do this, it doesn't even make sense?" argument which is that "It's a passive effect of him leaking his energy and not by his own intention".

But that argument doesn't hold up under scrutiny because then why would the moon stop moving at the exact same spot all the time for Zelda to commune with the player during the "The Blood Moon rises again" cutscene. His energy is still leaking out, so it should logically be continuing to pull the moon closer to the planet than if we go with the idea that Ganon isn't actively doing it.

Also, why would the moon move back into its original position if Ganon wasn't actively bringing it down? How would that even be possible?

So yeah, I don't believe that argument to credible.


For my closing, I am going to alter a quote from Dust_Collecter in that thread I linked above to match with what my positioning is here because it works so well:

"We don't have enough details about anything to say for sure that Calamity Ganon's 5-A feat is...well...a feat at all especially with the question of why bother going out of his way to move the moon from its current position, holding it for a few minutes while he revives dead monsters, and then puts it back to whatever was its original position before the Blood Moon event happens, we could just as easily say that the moon moving is an illusion cast by Ganon's energy instead of moving the moon since, after all, that takes the exact same amount of assumptions as telekinetically moving a celestial object. We have no idea what he's doing and the whole thing is too vague with not enough backing it up to justify our own specific interpretation."

Or this one from this thread:

"This is just game mechanics that automatically moves the moon to set up an oppressing atmosphere since there's no reason for Ganon to randomly move the moon via such extreme means and nothing in the game or outside sources even acknowledge the moon moving or even imply that Ganon is, for no reason, moving celestial bodies, meaning Ganondorf never actually moves anything."


Whatever the case in future responses and rebuttals, I am unable to respond for the foreseeable future since I am supposed to be taking a rescheduled Midterm for my Networking Class, but my teacher isn't showing, so I have to focus on that.

Goodbye.
 
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Good luck with midterms

About the High 5-A feat, it never actually got rejected, it just became “likely High 5-A”, which quickly became useless due to Zant’s “likely High 4-C” being higher.

“And no? You don't do anything, the location is what is different, that isn't affected by your character. Being in a certain position at a certain time (either the Moon or Link) is what causes the effect in the space around you, not any action from the player.”

Semantics will not change the fact that it’s still the player moving Link to certain locations that triggers those events. But the Blood Moon is literally a cutscene that cannot be controlled by the player (except for Glitch ones, but we’re only taking into consideration the legit ones). Even the moon’s placement in the sky before and after the Blood Moon cannot be modified in any way.
 

Warren_Valion

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Thanks, my professor is an absolute explict word here.

I've asked to reschedule my time to take the exam, but he hasn't responded.


Reading that thread, it seems more like the idea was never fully decided upon because discussion quickly transitioned over to the Zant "feat". But no matter, the same logic that Dust was applying to that feat is the logic I am using for this one, I just found the irony most amusing. Said logic being that there is no logical reason for any of this to happen with no lore that supports it, so because of that, it is likely to be just game mechanics.


And not really? Being within a location and a certain point of the game determines whether or not certain effects are active, that is the case for all of these things and is how even the most basic of programs run, in general. The only difference is that the location isn't limited to a castle, town, or fortress - it's the whole world.

The moon getting closer for an atmospheric effect (The whole prelude to the Blood Moon cutscene gives off some real Jaws vibe with the moon coming in closer and getting redder along with the crescendoing creepy music) or because the moon needs to be in a certain position to either activate the cutscene or be seen in the cutscene because the moon moving is a game mechanic makes just as much if not more sense than assuming an illogical and unsubstantiated claim.

Said claim being that Calamity Ganon is pulling down the moon a very specific distance from the Earth in the same exact location every time his energy leaks out of a seal he is bound in, and the reason for him doing so is that he is doing it unconsciously (Or Sub-consciously), making sure to hold the moon's position for a few seconds/minutes as he resurrects the dead, and then he puts the moon right back where it was as soon as his malice starts weakening giving him less influence on the outside world, again, without knowing that he, himself, is doing it apparently according to you, despite nothing saying that this is what is happening.

Occam's razor states that the correct assumption is usually the simplest. And, that's a lot that you have to assume to get what you're saying to make sense.

You have to assume that Ganon is performing his magnetic telekinetic pull of the moon without his own conscious knowledge because otherwise, the question of "Why would he even do this?" would come up. You also have to assume that Ganon pulling the moon means only to a specific position every time instead of the moon continuing to coming at the planet. You would have to assume that when his power is weakening that Ganon is moving the moon back to its previous position, again without noticing he is doing it. And finally, you would have to assume this is all happening without being mentioned or stated anywhere both in-game or in guides describing what happens during the Blood Moon event in detail.

While for my side of the argument, you just have to assume the moon moving is a game mechanics for x, y, and z reasons that I have discussed ad nauseam.


The Blood Moon is already a game mechanic to reset the enemies and items in the world, being given flavor-text to be canonized as an actual in-universe event doesn't take that away. It's a game mechanic first and foremost, and since the moving of the moon is both illogical and not supported by anything, I believe it to be completely fair to say that it isn't happening in-universe, and thus, the feat is invalid for Ganon to use and scale to or above.


Honestly, I don't see how this debate can grow from this point further, it just us jumping back and forth between me calling the moon's movement a game mechanic while giving my reasons why, and then you saying that it isn't a game mechanic. So unless something new is brought up, I am likely not to respond.

I recommend just trying to get the people who already voted to look over at the current arguments and give their take once again. If most or all of them still agree with the downgrades, then I think it's fair to just downgrade them because the ratio is what? 3-to-1? That should be enough right? The same thing goes for the Majora stuff. Some of them have commented and still agree with downgrades, but getting a few more thoughts won't hurt at all.

There are only so many ways to say the same thing after all and to be honest, I lack the energy, will, or time to deal with this debate much more.

So let's end this in the most democratic way possible, leaving it up to the people.

Goodbye.
 
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In fact, the Blood Moon's positioning is what I hypothesized could be what triggers the cutscene to play and the world to reset in the first place, but I can't be 100% sure of this unless I see the code for the game myself.
Game-wise, it happens as an "excuse" to reset the kill counter on all enemies so the game doens't have to remember every single enemy you've killed past a certain point. In fact, it's forced even in the middle of the day if the number goes too far (As this can be done by skipping the in-game night time by going to sleep, staying inside a temple for a while, etc.).
Just pointing it out.
 
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I'm sorry that you think of this debate this way, but I still don't get how it could be game mechanics. All game mechanics are caused by gameplay limitations and hardware limitations: Turn-based combat exists for gameplay, character statistics exist because computers need numbers to run calculations, weird polygon collision may be caused by hardware limitations, Mario being damaged by Goomba is to keep levels challenging, etc. This is the case for ALL game mechanics.

But the Blood Moon? We only see how big the moon is before the Blood Moon cutscene, and how small it is right after the cutscene. It literally has 0 gameplay effect and the moon's size changing definitely isn't a hardware limitation considering that the Switch is a console more than strong enough to keep the moon at a consistent size (actually, wouldn't it be harder to make it change?).

Also, since you asked, I found someone who explained how the Blood Moon works from a game code perspective. The position of the moon isn't considered when creating a Blood Moon
Okay, I didn't expect the Reddit link to become this thing. The link to the original thread is https://www.red dit.com/r/Breath_of_the_Wild/comments/9t0xdz/clarifying_the_time_system_blood_moons_and_lord/ (Remove the space)
 
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Just gonna throw in something about the blood moon, nothing that argues for or against it but how we rate it. I don't think we should count this as a Large Planet level feat if the feat stays, rather it should be just Moon level since it's understandable that Ganons leaked out malice may pull the moon closer to the planet but I don't think his power would also randomly push it back into orbit since it only goes back once his power gets contained again, which as odd as this may sound, likely means the moon just kinda naturally moves back on its own after Ganons malice is no longer leaked out and keeping it pulled towards the planet, in which case the timeframe and speed for it moving back shouldn't be used. I just woke up like a few minutes ago so maybe I'm not explaining myself as well as I should so maybe I'll make a better post later.
 
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I'm going to remind that BotW was originally for the Wii U, a far weaker sistem where that sort of hardware limitations could apply (With the Switch port being done over a year as a release title for it), as said before, game-wise it is there to reset the kill counter on all enemies so they respawn as a sort of narrative excuse so the game doens't glitch out or so, hence why the "emergency" blood moons happen if Link kills too many enemies and doesn't let the blood moon do the task normally by either doing it that fast or just skipping it via some game mechanics.
I don't know why this is relevant, but just pointing it out.
 

Warren_Valion

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I'm sorry that you think of this debate this way, but I still don't get how it could be game mechanics. All game mechanics are caused by gameplay limitations and hardware limitations: Turn-based combat exists for gameplay, character statistics exist because computers need numbers to run calculations, weird polygon collision may be caused by hardware limitations, Mario being damaged by Goomba is to keep levels challenging, etc. This is the case for ALL game mechanics.

But the Blood Moon? We only see how big the moon is before the Blood Moon cutscene, and how small it is right after the cutscene. It literally has 0 gameplay effect and the moon's size changing definitely isn't a hardware limitation considering that the Switch is a console more than strong enough to keep the moon at a consistent size (actually, wouldn't it be harder to make it change?).

Also, since you asked, I found someone who explained how the Blood Moon works from a game code perspective. The position of the moon isn't considered when creating a Blood Moon
Okay, I didn't expect the Reddit link to become this thing. The link to the original thread is https://www.red dit.com/r/Breath_of_the_Wild/comments/9t0xdz/clarifying_the_time_system_blood_moons_and_lord/ (Remove the space)
Game Mechanics are anything that guides the player's moves or actions, as well as the game's response to them.

How progress is kept in games is one of the core tenants of game mechanics - that's what the Blood Moon is, it is a game mechanic already.

Its purpose is to reset the world to save on memory. How is saving on memory NOT a hardware limitation? Again, being given flavor text to be a canonized in-universe event doesn't change that. It's still a game mechanic.

And I only hypothesized that the moon's position could be important for the cutscene of the Blood Moon to activate but even if it is not, I also said that its appearance being used for atmospheric reasons, like how what was done in other Zelda games, makes just as much sense, if not more since it seems to be something that Nintendo does in their games, specifically their Zelda games.

You also haven't countered any of my points about how saying that Ganon is doing this doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it, and it isn't proven by anything - which is the reasoning for my claims.

I am going to alter a quote from Dust again,

"If it's objectively not a game mechanic and this is truly 100% without a doubt Ganon moving the moon then answer these questions. What reason would Ganon have to do such extreme things just to make move the moon whenever he revives the dead? And why does nothing in the game or any outside source ever even acknowledge the sudden change of the moon's positioning like they acknowledge his ability to paint the sky red or revive the dead monsters during the Blood Moon"

This same logic that applied there on that thread, applies here on this one, as it is what I am arguing. If you can't break these reasons, then you can't break the argument.

This rating change shouldn't be dependent on your definition of game mechanics making the opposing argument invalid, it should be based on if you can debunk the reasonings for the argument for downgrading the character.


So since what I said would happen is happening, I am just going to quote myself as a conclusion,

"Honestly, I don't see how this debate can grow from this point further, it just us jumping back and forth between me calling the moon's movement a game mechanic while giving my reasons why, and then you say that it isn't a game mechanic. So unless something new is brought up, I am likely not to respond.

I recommend just trying to get the people who already voted to look over at the current arguments and give their take once again. If most or all of them still agree with the downgrades, then I think it's fair to just downgrade them because the ratio is what? 3-to-1? That should be enough right? The same thing goes for the Majora stuff. Some of them have commented and still agree with downgrades, but getting a few more thoughts won't hurt at all."
 
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I think we have two different definitions of game mechanics. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics

The blood moon stopped being game mechanics the moment it got acknowledged by Zelda to be one of Ganon’s abilities. Especially considering that the blood moon is in the “Creating a Champion” book. Arguing that the Blood Moon itself (not just the movement of the moon) is game mechanics doesn’t really make sense.

“You have to assume that Ganon is performing his magnetic telekinetic pull of the moon without his own conscious knowledge because otherwise, the question of "Why would he even do this?" would come up.”

I’m not assuming that, it’s already implied in the quotes that FireStorm posted. It's his malice that does it, not Ganon directly. Also, you need to take into consideration the fact that Calamity Ganon is almost mindless.

“You also have to assume that Ganon pulling the moon means only to a specific position every time instead of the moon continuing to coming at the planet.”

I’m not assuming that, I literally see that in-game. As long as nothing is contradicting it outside of incredulity, we must accept this.

“You would have to assume that when his power is weakening that Ganon is moving the moon back to its previous position, again without noticing he is doing it."

Again, I'm not assuming it, it's visible in-game. While it's definitely strange, the "things are brought back to normal after the disappearance of the cause that created the strange event" is fairly common in Zelda. Think of how winter immediately became spring after Goht's defeat, how the water in Great Bay came back to its original temperature after the defeat of Gyorg, Death Mountain in OoT came back to normal after Volvagia's defeat, etc. In this case, the moment Ganon weakens, his malice disappears from the sky and the blood moon goes back to becoming a normal moon. And no one is arguing that Ganon doesn't notice this, just that he's not consciously doing it. It's not really Ganon as much as his malice that does the feat.

"And finally, you would have to assume this is all happening without being mentioned or stated anywhere both in-game or in guides describing what happens during the Blood Moon event in detail.”

Again, I'm assuming nothing, that's just how it is. The reason it's never stated anywhere is simply that it's not really important. The reason we consider it important is just for power scaling issues, but for the normal player, it's just a visual effect.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I'm siding with Triforce here regarding Calamity Ganon. But someone brought up the High 5-A feat from Wind Waker, actually a lot of complaints about us assuming the Earth gets flipped as opposed to time manipulation is commonly brought up. But causing an endless night from some Castlevania calc getting Moon level seems like a good way to consider that feat however.
 

Warren_Valion

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Just because a game mechanic is canonized, doesn't mean it isn't still a game mechanic at heart. The fact the Blood Moon is a mechanic, goes to show that aspects of the Blood Moon can also be there for game mechanic reasons.

Ganon's Malice is his energy, which he controls, he is actively reviving the dead, controlling electronic marvels that are Sheikah Tech, etc.

And no, that's not true. Dark Beast Ganon is when Ganon becomes nearly mindless, it is specifically mentioned that he became mindless when Ganon transforms into that - not Calamity Ganon. Calamity Ganon outsmarted all of Hyrule by possessing the very creations that were made to destroy him, and consistently revives his fallen minions to fight for him. He definitely still possesses substantial intelligence.


This isn't an argument from incredulity, it's an argument that says when trying to apply your line of logic, your claims don't make sense on their own, because they don't.

You are arguing that Ganon's Malice is reaching out and pulling the moon down, without Ganon making the conscious decision to do so. <--- This is your answer to "Why is Ganon doing this?"

This would be a fair rebuttal, but the problem with this answer is that this logic makes no sense when looked over and for this line of logic to work, you have to make certain assumptions.

Because, following that line of logic, the moon would continue to accelerate towards the planet as long as Ganon's energy is leaking out of the seal because Ganon isn't controlling his pull on the moon, he's energy is just pulling it towards the Earth like a magnet, according to you.

But it doesn't do that, it moves the moon and then makes it stay in one spot - this doesn't make sense. So you have to assume that Ganon's Malice, for whatever reason, is only pulling the moon to that location because that is what it wants to do. This also doesn't make sense and isn't supported by anything.


And what? Massive false equivalency. Goht's existence due to Majora's corruption was causing the endless blizzard. His death would mean that there wouldn't be a source for the snow to continue to be generated. The same goes for Volvagia.

But applying this to Calamity Ganon is disingenuous. If Ganon's malice is pulling the moon down, then the removal of that Malice energy would just stop pulling the moon down (which would still have the moon coming down to Earth due to Newton's laws of motion, but whatever) - it wouldn't put it back to where it was.

Do you see how this doesn't make any sense? For the specificity of the moon's movement, it requires intent, which goes against the logic formed from your rebuttal. If you remove the rebuttal, the original argument of "Why is Ganon doing this?" comes back into play.


Also, I said that Ganon isn't aware that he, himself, is causing the moon's dissension, not that he doesn't notice it in general, so I don't know where you got that I didn't say that exactly, but that doesn't matter.


Yes, a visual effect. That's what the moon moving is, not just to the average player or NPC, but for the universe itself - and there is nothing proving otherwise - that's my argument.


Saying, "It just is" or "It just works" or "We see it in the game, so it must be really happening" is just not true for any source of fiction, especially video games. We don't say that Black Panther beating the Silver Surfer is a legitimate feat - it's an outlier because it lacks logical consistency - we ignore what is happening in front of our eyes because it doesn't make sense. Games have the same thing, in addition to game mechanics.

Plenty of things in video games that happen during gameplay, aren't really happening. And since there is no lore or snippet of dialogue that even mention the moving of the moon, along with the nonsensical idea of it and the logic formed from your rebuttal, the most reasonable conclusion is to assume the Moon moving during the Blood Moon is one such event and cannot be used for power scaling.

The Blood Moon is the sky being painted red in Ganon's Malice - this is said directly by Hino, the knowledgeable NPC, and by the guide that's sole purpose is to describe this event. It is not the moon moving, as there is no proof of that.

Unless you give me proof of your claim, this argument will go nowhere.
 

Warren_Valion

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I am pretty dumb with this new forum, but we can @ the people who agreed on the downgrades to come back and read over the current arguments, right?
 
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Yes, malice is Ganon’s energy, but it’s not directly controlled by him, as Zelda’s still sealing him. That’s the main reason why Ganon didn’t just destroy Hyrule with the Divine Beasts.

In Goht’s case, the snow melted pretty much immediately, in a matter of minutes or even seconds. That’s just not how ice melts, regardless of how hot it is. And in Volvagia’s case, we very clearly see the dark clouds over Death Mountain being repelled away. These aren’t natural phenomena in the slightest.

Since we would just end up repeating ourselves if we went on with this, I’m just going to post my argument and then just leave it at the votes.

During the Blood Moon, we visibly see the moon shrink, indicating that it got away. The reason why I say this isn’t gameplay mechanics is because this movement doesn’t effect gameplay in the slightest and cannot be affected by gameplay. There’s also no hardware limitation involved. Reminder that I’m talking about the movement of the moon, not the blood moon itself. The moon moves because the developers wanted it to move.

Ganon is implied to not do this consciously, as the Blood Moon is caused by Malice that poured from Hyrule Castle, which Ganon cannot directly control because he’s still sealed by Zelda. Malice doesn’t blindly attract the moon, but merely moves it closer by a certain amount. If malice is capable of controlling things like Guardians without Ganon’s direct control, it’s definitely precise enough to do something like this.

This is basically my argument: It’s not gameplay mechanics and Ganon doesn’t need a reason to do it. The following two paragraphs are to clear up any possibility of a contradiction.

The reason the moon goes back to its place is the same reason Goht’s defeat causes snow on an entire mountain to melt in minutes/seconds or Volvagia’s death repelling dark clouds in seconds, and it’s just probably just caused by malice, just as it can make the moon come closer, it could also make the opposite. Point is, it’s not impossible for Malice to be the cause for the movement of the moon, and as long as it’s not impossible there’s no contradiction.

The reason it’s not mentioned in lore is because this is pretty much irrelevant in lore. The only reason we care is for power scaling, but for the normal player it’s not important, hence why Nintendo never cared enough to mention it. Anyway, lack of supplemental information doesn’t disprove the feat.

Have I forgotten anything?
 
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I just spent two hours on a rebuttal and it deleted it.

I am just going to focus on the points that really matter in my rewrite.

I am sad
I am going to give you the same advice I once gave to Firephoenixearl: "Save everything that takes more than a single minute to write"
 

Warren_Valion

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Anyway, @TriforcePower1

Your Goht and Volvagia examples are a false equivalency and your evidence saying that it's not is a strawman.

I, nor anyone, ever said that what Goht or Volvagia are doing are naturally occurring phenomena. It still all magic, and it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility for magical ice and snow or magically created dark clouds to be erased instantly upon the death of the one creating them since their life is what sustains it.

You say there is no contradiction and thus, it can't be disproven, but your wrong, there is a contradiction - the examples you use aren't the same line of logic.

Let me explain.

Goht and Volvagia are the cause and what they are doing, creating endless snow and ice and some atmospheric effect with clouds, are the effects. Getting rid of the causes, erases the effects in these examples. That's the line of logic being applied to these two examples.

Calamity Ganon doesn't work on this line of logic.

Calamity Ganon (or his energy) is the cause, and the moon being pulled down is the effect of that cause. If getting rid of the cause, just got rid of the effect. Then all that would mean is that Ganon or his energy wouldn't pull on the moon anymore. While this does happen, it isn't the only thing that happens. It also reverses the moon's positioning back to what it was before. This line of logic would be getting rid of the cause, doesn't just get rid of the effect, but reverses it.

This is a separate line of logic that isn't compatible with the other one. It's a false equivalency. These are not the same thing, and the logic you are describing doesn't make sense when you are saying they are.


And on the topic of Ganon's Malice, I want to mention, but I don't see how Ganon's energy leaking out of a seal implies that the Blood Moon is an unconscious event caused by his energy. While Ganon is being limited and bound by a seal created by Zelda, said seal has been weakening since it was put up.

What infers that Ganon's energy leaking out means that he isn't aware that it's doing shit? He can just as easily be, and honestly, it's more believable if he is actively reviving his dead monster followers every time Zelda's seal weakens slightly, which would allow him to do so before she restrengthens the seal.

I don't get this line of logic, could you explain your reasoning?


About your game mechanics comments, according to the vs battle wiki page that you linked, Game Mechanics are "abilities shown in games that are determined by the rules of the game and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities". There is nothing saying they have to player/character-choices and options only to count whatsoever. The world is apart of the gameplay experience - timers and triggers are apart of the gameplay experience. The Blood Moon, and my arguments for why Ganon moving the moon during the Night of Red Moon isn't really happening, coincide with this definition completely.


Also, can you please explain to me how the moon looking like it's careening toward the planet at speeds faster than sound in an event called the Blood MOON would be "irrelevant to the lore" to the point where it wouldn't be mentioned or implied anywhere? Moon is the name of the event for Pete's sake.

It would most certainly not be irrelevant and it would at least be implied to be happening somewhere, you're just saying that it's not. Why would a book specifically created to describe the lore of a game in detail, leave out one of the most notable aspects of the Blood Moon when writing about it?

That doesn't make sense.


But forget about all that, because I need to ask you a question - and answer honestly:

Do you think that the music ('Omen of the Bloodly Moon') is also something that Ganon is causing?

Because where is the planetary-wide Sound Manipulation?

It's happening in the game, so it must be a real feat, right? It doesn't matter if it doesn't make any sense for Ganon or his energy to do this or that it isn't mentioned anywhere in the game, like why would anyone mention the world making creepy music on the night when the sky becomes red, right? Nor is it mentioned in any guidebooks because why would you describe something that's happening in your game when you're writing a guidebook for said game, right?

We hear it with our own ears, and since you can't control the Blood Moon, it cannot just be an effect to make the Blood Moon creepier, it has to be a real feat.

So chop chop *finger-snaps*, make it happen, guys.

Sorry if this is too sassy or sarcastic, it's hard to measure one's tolerance limits to these types of things, but I thought it was a fair point so I decided to include it. And I had fun writing it.

To focus on the point of this question - it's the same thing; the music and the moon moving are both effects to enhance the creepy atmosphere of the event. They aren't really occurring in the universe and they aren't real feats, and nothing proves otherwise.

And because of that, Calamity Ganon should be downgraded.
 

Warren_Valion

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I am going to give you the same advice I once gave to Firephoenixearl: "Save everything that takes more than a single minute to write"
I don't know how, but as soon as I clicked "Post Reply" I get teleported to the Lifting Strengths Revisions, with all my work erased.

It was weird.
 
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“What infers that Ganon's energy leaking out means that he isn't aware that it's doing shit? He can just as easily be, and honestly, it's more believable if he is actively reviving his dead monster followers every time Zelda's seal weakens slightly, which would allow him to do so before she restrengthens the seal.”

“I don't get this line of logic, could you explain your reasoning?”

I mean, we see no indication of his control over malice getting stronger. Divine Beasts don’t become more hostile, monsters and corrupted guardians also don’t seem to change their behavior. The wording in the scan also implies this, as it’s always talking about Ganon’s malice creating the blood moon and doing things, and never Ganon himself. The weakening of the seal probably only allows him to release more malice rather than enhancing his control over it.

And about the music, while that would be awesome because we could give Guardians Fear Manipulation thanks to their theme, unfortunately all music in all media is considered... something that exists outside of the stoy by default (unless explicitly said to be part of the lore).

Going on debating would probably be useless. I’ve already said everything, so now we leave it at votes.
 

Warren_Valion

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I am fine with leaving things to the votes. Feels topical, since I am an American.

Again, does anyone have a tally?
 
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@Warren_Valion As a side I feel it important to clarify some things directly pertaining to your arguments.

I understand that your claiming the quote "By entering it [a tunnel], you'll reach Woodfall, the bog where an ancient Deku temple lies submerged beneath the poison water. The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask." is just referring to the warped planet, but that's not what it says, it literally says "like everything else in the parallel Universe", not like everything else on the planet, or even everything else in Termina if you want to claim that could refer to the planet only, meaning that everything in the parallel Universe is corrupted, just like the the water and other changes to the planet on the same level.

I also feel the need to clarify that when they say "...the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time." would logically refer to the corruption he caused, and that it extends across space and time influencing even them. We know that he had similar levels of corruption across the Universe from the previous quote to substantiate that this space time manipulation is of Universal+ magnitude, as his influence is similar across everything in the Universe. Also claiming it is just the planet being referred to in this quote is clearly not accurate even within the quote itself since the moon, and the heavens are not part of the planet.

Finally we know he maintains this warped reality, which as the quotes state, extends across everything in the Universe, including space and time.

So it is factual to say that the quotes strongly imply he influences/taints everything in the Universe on a similar level to what we see on the planet or "Land of Termina", including all space and time, and sustains this warped reality till his death.

I feel Universe+ space and time manipulation (which is not a mere time stop, he is literally sustaining the Universe itself that he warped), coupled with Universe+ corruption, altering the cultures, races, history, landscape etc of the planet to fit his own warped idea of reality, and by extension the Universe since he has been directly stated to have similar corruption occurring with everything in the Universe, coupled with sustaining this alternate Universe to exist in his warped perspective is indicative of Low 2-C, and should give at least a possibly Low 2-C rating since it is a very significant possible rating.

Now I'm aware your likely going to try and claim I used multiple sources, but that's not going to change the facts presented in those sources, which I presented in context, which help substantiate each other as separate entities.
 
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*Leaving things strictly to votes is generally not a good idea imo, lots of people can usher in a half a dozen friends to comment and sway it in their favor tbf.
 

Warren_Valion

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No one here wants to continue to argue the same thing over and over again. The moment an argument gets circular - it is pointless to continue.


And Votes are how CRTs are accepted, every CRT is left up to votes.



Asking those who already voted to come back and reevaluate arguments isn't ushering anything, it's just a way to finish this.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Actually, it isn't about votes, more like if the outcome matches the balance of the wiki's system is what is to be determined. Votes are a side factor, but not the driving point. But I do agree that circular arguments solves nothing.
 
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I'm actually in support of High 4-C Zant with the reason being that when you defeat him, you're still in the warped space before he falls unconscious. When the cutscene starts, you're back in the throne room. Why would Zant just be like "damn I got defeated well time to teleport us back even though I was trying to stop you guys from moving forwards", especially while he's getting knocked out? It's more logical that his warping was ceased upon his defeat

IDK why anybody scaled shit to the Wind Fish to begin with, are people forgetting like....the entire plot of Link's Awakening?
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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There's no proof the sun is interactable, and it was randomly added in the Hero mode for decoration. And it contradicts the fact that Link's sword is still glowing, implying there is no real sun. Still.
 
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Yes, there's no proof the Sun itself is interactable, but everything else in the space is (such as the pillars, water, etc). IDK why Zant would make some things an illusion and others things not. Doesn't make much sense

I'm still firm on my belief for the Zant warping feat for my reasons above and I just wanted to say why as to give food for thought
 
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I just spent two hours on a rebuttal and it deleted it.

I am just going to focus on the points that really matter in my rewrite.

I am sad
Sorry to tell you, but there's this "floppy disk" icon you can use to restore what you had written, it saves what you wrote on each thread automatically unless it's blank. It may be useful for the next time at least.

Anyways, I agree with the downgrades.
 

Warren_Valion

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Just because something is interactable, doesn't mean it isn't an illusion.

Good illusions are nearly indistinguishable from reality.


The fact that Master Sword still glows implies that Link isn't being teleported anywhere, but it also implies that the world and its physics aren't changing either. In the real world, with a real sun - the Master Sword doesn't glow with the Sols' light.

If Zant changed the room into a world with a Sun, which isn't supported anyway AFAIK, then the Master Sword wouldn't glow anymore with the Sols light because it would be bathing in real Sun Light.

Instead, it remains a beacon of light that it is in the Twilight Realm, a land bathed in Shadows. This gives even more credence to the "It's an illusion" theory.
 
Iirc the reason the Master Sword doesn't glow is because he's not in the Twilight Realm. If it was solely due to the Sun, it would glow in caves and at night, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't in either of those situations, at the very least not to the extent it does in the Twilight.

Also, I feel like I remember that in the thread that upgraded this in the first place there was something about Zant not showing any illusionary feats before this point, but him having a RW feat to back this up? I could be mistaken.

Am neutral on Zant btw.
 

Warren_Valion

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Iirc the reason the Master Sword doesn't glow is because he's not in the Twilight Realm. If it was solely due to the Sun, it would glow in caves and at night, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't in either of those situations, at the very least not to the extent it does in the Twilight.

Also, I feel like I remember that in the thread that upgraded this in the first place there was something about Zant not showing any illusionary feats before this point, but him having a RW feat to back this up? I could be mistaken.

Am neutral on Zant btw.
I was speaking more theatrically about lands "bathed in light or shadow" as in referring to the two realms and not me saying that the Master Sword only glows in the dark, but anyway, what you are saying is that's essentially my point.

If he's warping reality, then the space that he is creating wouldn't be in the Twilight Realm, it would be a physical reality that is similar to the real world, meaning the sword wouldn't glow.

If he was just creating an illusion, he would still be in the Twilight Realm, and the sword still glowing makes more sense.
 
.....no?

The reason Hyrule is not in Twilight is due to the protection of the light spirits.
for Zant to create a space similar to Hyrule, he would also need the Light intrinsic to those light spirits as well. The sun alone isn't the cause.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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The still exists in the world of light even if the sun sets; as the moon is bouncing the sun's light back to Earth, but as for the caves; it could be game mechanic limitations. The sword only glows in Twilight Realm because of the Sol orbs which are the only source of light in the Twilight Realm.
 
Yes, it could be a mechanical limitation, just as it could be a simple oversight that the devs didn't bother fixing since it doesn't have gameplay ramifications.
Alternatively. the sword could simply not glow in the Light World, due to the influence of the Light Spirits which would permeate the entirety of the area, including caves.
However these are assumptions that are supported if, and only if, our arguments are true, and not the slightest bit the other way around.

>The sword only glows in Twilight Realm because of the Sol orbs
Yes, the sword is imbued with the power of the Sol orbs
which are the only source of light in the Twilight Realm.
And now the master sword as well, because it holds some of their light.

Also, the light from the Sol orbs, and the light from the Sun, probably have different supernatural properties considering that the light from the Sol orbs doesn't harm the Twili.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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They're much smaller, have no wear near as much mass, and definitely lack the GBE. It possess solar radiation and produces light similar to the sun, but that's about it.
 

Warren_Valion

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I think that people who voted against the Wind Fish voted early and didn't see the arguments for it exactly.

I think it's pretty open-and-shut, to be honest.
 
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Still, what's wrong with the wind fish?
The fact that he never fought against someone and nothing proves that his creation feat scales to his other abilities?
Check the creation feats page: "Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."
So Wind Fish's feat is legit, but as Environmental Destruction, so it shouldn't scale to anyone else.
 
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The fact that he never fought against someone and nothing proves that his creation feat scales to his other abilities?
Check the creation feats page: "Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."
So Wind Fish's feat is legit, but as Environmental Destruction, so it shouldn't scale to anyone else.
It still scales to the Triforce due to being >>>> everything else in the series. So it doesn’t matter.
 
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It still scales to the Triforce due to being >>>> everything else in the series. So it doesn’t matter.
I mean, Triforce itself has solid 3-A/Low 2-C statements and feats for me, but this is something for another thread.
Another thing I wanted to say is about Calamity Ganon, I agree with him moving the moon near to the planet, but in my opinion he doesn't move it back, so we should only use him moving it one time and use the in-game timeframe since it is the most legit one.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Wind Fish is definitely 4-A, however, he is considered a glass cannon looking at his profile. Physically, he's only High 6-A scaling from Nightmares. But it was agreed Hylia and in turn Demise could be possibly 4-A via being above lesser deities such as Wind Fish.
 
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Wind Fish is definitely 4-A, however, he is considered a glass cannon looking at his profile. Physically, he's only High 6-A scaling from Nightmares. But it was agreed Hylia and in turn Demise could be possibly 4-A via being above lesser deities such as Wind Fish.
But if Wind Fish's feat is Environmental Destruction this means that you can argue for Hylia having higher Environmental Destruction power, but you can't scale It to her normal attacks for Demise and SS Link.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Actually, it's more like Wind Fish's magic in general is 4-A, and I recall he actually destroys his dimension when you beat the game. Regardless of it not scaling to physicals, his magic AP is a solid 4-A. Unlike Wind Fish, Hylia actually has proof her physical stats are more or less on par with her magic as she traded blows with Demise.
 
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We literally never see Hylia vs Demise, how can you tell that the fight wasn't Hylia from distance vs Demise?
Also, the fact that Wind Fish destroyed the world he created doesn't mean that his magic in general Is 4-A.
It's called Environmental Descruction, there's the page about that topic.
Saying that Hylia Is 4-A It means assuming that the Wind Fish's magical attacks are 4-A when nothing proves It and assume how Hylia fought against Demise.
 

Warren_Valion

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Creation feats via Reality Warping are viable for AP and the Wind Fish created the dimension that the island and the sea, sky, and stars reside in just by dreaming it into existence.

That's still 4-A AP via magic.
 

Warren_Valion

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The Wind Fish destroys his dream when he wakes up. We can use that if the creation part causes arguments.
I think he is saying the destroying part is causing arguments.

Since it would be Environmental Destruction and not AP for some reason apparently. But like, he created it too, so it would still be 4-A, AFAIK.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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ED is stuff like creating storms that cause little to no damage on that traditional level. Giving birth to realms and collapsing them just by waking up is AP.
 
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You didn't get my point.
The Wind Fish created his own world and it's a fact, but we don't know how much time he needed for It and more than destroyed the world at the end of the game, he just dissolved the spell.
The Wind Fish never fought, so we can't say that his spells attacks are as strong as his creation spell, which created a world.
That's a light form of Environmental Descruction, again check the page:

"Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."

So we can't scale that to Hylia at all. I understand if Demise's creating a world scales to his normal attacks since he's a Demon king and his forte is destroying and not creating, but with the Wind Fish we're assuming too much things.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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If he hakai's his own dimension, it scales to his AP. It's not Environmental destruction and I read the page. So it's a 4-A creation and a solid destruction feat, so Wind Fish is 4-A. And if Hylia is stronger, she would scale as well.
 
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If he hakai's his own dimension, it scales to his AP. It's not Environmental destruction and I read the page. So it's a 4-A creation and a solid destruction feat, so Wind Fish is 4-A. And if Hylia is stronger, she would scale as well.
The problem is that I don't see it as an hakai. The Wind Fish never says he's gonna destroy it, but it's more like him being sleeping keeps the spell active, by waking-up him he can dissolve/disactivate the spell, I don't know if you get what I mean.
Also, Demise created a world with just one sun, not with multiple stars, so even if we accept the feat as legit, it would be an outlier since the Demon King is stronger than the Wind Fish (lore-wise, as you admitted).
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Stabilizing a pocket reality is very much an AP feat; because producing GBE in your sleep is passive AP. Azathoth is Tier 0 for similar reasons based on a similar power method. He destroys his own dimension just by waking up so Link can escape and return to his own world.
And that's not how outliers work. Demise' High 4-C feat is considerably casual and there's no 100% proof of the lore making Hylia superior to Wind Fish, only vague statements. Hence why possibly 4-A is accepted rather than outright 4-A. Wind Fish clearly scales to his own feat as it doesn't directly scale to anyone but him. A feat can only be an outlier if non-casual low end feats and/or anti-feats exist.
 
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The Wind Fish is officialy a leviathan.
Other leviathans, such as Levias, Lord Jabu Jabu and the Ocean King never displayed such huge feats.
And Hylia is confirmed to be way stronger than Levias. So, that's an outlier to me.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Being the same race, doesn't make them equal. All Links are Hylains, but they all vary greatly in power. And not all Gorons are equal; they can vary from High 7-A to High 6-A. Levias is only High 6-A via his own feat and there's 0 proof of Wind Fish being as weak as him or other Leviathans.
 
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It's not just the same race. They're all spirits of the same "rank". Lore-wise, it is kinda clear that the rank is this in the series:
Golden Goddesses
Hylia
Leviathans.

I don't see why you want to say that the Wind Fish is way stronger than his similars, since they have solid feats at the same level, see Levias and the Ocean King with the same Hihg 6-A ranking, also the Ocean King ruled over an ocean realm, in a way similar to Wind Fish, in some aspects. Also, I think all the Links share similar strength when they have the same age and the same weapons and I don't know which Gorons are High 6-A since Gorons's page only talks about High 7-A and we threat all people of the same specie as comprable to each other (all the hylian knights have the same rank, same for Gerudos etc...)
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Ocean King never created his realm; that was the Golden Goddesses who did. And World of the Ocean King does appear to be a different flow of time; as it's an entire game but only 10 minutes in the World of Hyrule. Talking about some ancient Goron hero who slew Volvagia; our profile is mostly based on the Civilian Gorons. Gerudo also have characters that can vary in tier, most fight Iron Knuckles to be High 7-A, but Koume and Kotake are High 6-A via scaling. Wind Fish however actually creates his starry sky dimension and is literally the entire plot point of Link's Awakening HD which came out after Breath of the Wild or Skyward Sword no less.

If someone can create or destroy a 4-A realm, they can logically do it to a High 4-C realm easily. So Demise own High 4-C feat doesn't contradict 4-A as long as they're considerably above Wind Fish.
 
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Something else to note about Demise is that he also wasn't at full power yet since he hadn't fully consumed Zeldas soul and regained his true strength, so him and Hylia being 4-A isn't too far fetched.
 

Warren_Valion

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This thread is dying down, and because of the nature of this material, I think that it needs to be definitively concluded.

So can we work out a plan of action on how to conclude this CRT?
 
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Best thing I think we can do now is get everyone who previously commented on the downgrades and ask them to read through all the new arguments and see where it goes from there.
 
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Just gimme a few minutes and I'll try and have everyone who hasn't commented recently tagged, if push comes to shove I'll try messaging people directly.
 
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