Massive Homestuck Overhaul (Cosmology Upgrade) (Intermission)

[Thelastmlg]

Alright, now that act 1 has been concluded, let's go straight to act 2!

INTERMISSION

Seems like our attention is being redirected to another matter at the moment: Cosmology reviewing and upgrading.


With the new revisions and standards regarding qualitative superiority, homestuck, a verse that has a lot of this, needs to be adapted to them, and also i want to make the cosmology clear here, so let's summarize it.

Universes and Hierarchy​

In homestuck, we have 4 types of universes:

The normal universes, which are usually referred to as timelines, both terms are in fact distinct in the story. They can also becalled Instances.

The Genesis Frogs, which are always referred to as universes, but include infinite timelines inside of them, they are called universes because all of those timelines follow fundamental events and aspects that make them similar in many ways, such as alternia existing or earth existing.

Dream Bubbles, which are afterlifes blown by the horrorterrors, made of memory stuff and being made to serve as stable realities for ghosts in the furthest ring. While their size is never directly said, we have seen them possessing cosmic skies, being able to recreate the universe that bec noir destroyed inside of the expanded Skaia pond and John here talks about Lord English blowing up universes, given that his rampage was seeking and blowing up dream bubbles, than John is most likely calling them universes, so they should be at least as large as Genesis Frogs.

and now, for the final type, we have the "Jenga Tower of Creators", essentially, there are "meta-rivers" (the metaphorical part is just that they aren't literal rivers) representing fate and story of others (as well as causality in general), with those higher in the chain being completely unaffected by those things from lower universes, and yet, having their own fates, story and causality being controlled by the creators in the higher worlds, following the same logic on and on, so basically each layer has laws and narratives on them.

Size wise, they are stated to be infinitely larger and vaster than lower rivers, with the "planets" said rivers reside on (which, given the context, probably means the universe/plane of existence said creator is on) is swept by the next higher river, viewing them as mere pixels and being controlled like chessboards. Alongside that, there are infinite levels of meta-rivers.

So to summarize, there is a chain of universes that are considered infinitely larger and vaster than each other, being unbound by the fate, causality and story of lowers worlds and controlling them freely like pieces in a chessboard, with the process of going up to them being referred to as "transcedence" and leaving all of them letting you reach the "full light of reality".

they should be considered a qualitative superiority over the baseline universe, which means they see infinite timelines as effectively fiction, since the first layer already does that, that means the the very first level of the hierarchy would be 1-A, i'm not sure if we handle having the same transcendence process as meta-qualitative superiority, or just another layer to it.

going by the latter, this makes the full Jenga Tower of Creators 1-A+

Furthest Ring​

Now we move on to the next part of reality: The Furthest Ring, home to the Horrorterrors.

It is a infinite void that exists outside of the universes and is completely untouched by their spacetime, being considered the default reality and the most fundamental layer of the cosmology, with universes, dream bubbles and sessions all being short lived anomalous dream-like irregularities existing as bubbles blown by the horroterrors.

It is also the canvas where the aspects themselves exist on, with the aspects being the source of all concepts, being effectively unseparable due to how mixed and intertwined they are there, to the point where space and time are unreliable and trying to move in one leads you to randomly moving through the other, and considering that it is untouched by the spacetime of universes, them the spacetime there must come from the aspects themselves, and those would be higher levels of space and time due to existing indepedently from the universes that already have them.

So the Furthest Ring is considered to be infinitely larger than any universe, untouched by their spacetime, having the very concepts of space and time, which aren't confined to the normal reality the characters exist on, spread over it's fabric, and being more fundamental, important and "real" than the universes, to the point where they are considered "dream-like anomalies" that briefly exist compared to the lifespan of the Horrorterrors.

i think this is enough for it to be considered qualitative superiority? infinitely larger, existentially superior, unlimited to realities' aspects, comparing them to dreams, etc.

i think, even if it's not full on qualitative superiority, would it be superior enough to warrant High 1-A.

Paradox Space​

Paradox space's nature is harder to explain due to it being very "subtle" in many aspects thanks to it's role in the story, as in, the characters rarely talk about what paradox space is, they mostly rant about paradox space sucking due to fate and rules being unfair and apathic, fortunately we have bits of information scaterred around, as well as implications.

the main thing to remember is that paradox space is mean't to be the entire the setting of the story, containing everything in existence, being reality itself and the multiverse.

However, there are implications that the events of the comic, including Lord English's entire existence, is one big loop mantained by paradox space, and that said loop is "stitched to the fabric of cyclical reality", as well as being part of the "cyclical, fatalistic prison of the story", and John's freedom from the story is what allows him to fight back against said inevitability.

So it seems like Paradox Space is in fact, a sort of "timeline" for everything inside of it at bare minimun, despite the concept of time, which includes fate and causality, and Doom, which deals with inevitability and rules, being inside of the Furthest Ring which is contained by it, and it's destruction being part of said loop given that Paradox Space still exists after the furthest ring is gone, and the meteor that exists on Earth C being the one Caliborn lives on, and given the nature of said loop and inevitability being tied to the story, it could also be a qualitative superiority, as it would be a loop of the narrative itself.

so Paradox Space is superior to the Furthest Ring as either a hypertimeline (one that's beyond the concept of time which is itself beyond infinite levels of higher fate, causality and stories), or straight up sees it as fiction.

so i'm pretty sure it means it scales 1 layer into High 1-A.

Scaling​

Currently those that would scale to this new Tiering would go like this:

Retcon John Egbert, Davepetasprite^2, Weakened Lord English and Noble Cycle of Horrorterrors = Furthest Ring (Baseline High 1-A)

Andrew Hussie, Transcedent Feferi Peixes and MSPAReader = Paradox Space (1 Layer above High 1-A)

Lord English, Ultimate selves (Dirk, Rose and Dave), The Blackout (Retcon John Egbert and MSPAReader and Black Hole Alternate Calliope = R>F over Paradox Space (2 Layers above High 1-A)

First Guardian MSPAReader = apparentely he has R>F over Dirk and Calliope? in that case (3 layers above High 1-A)

i'll try making the rest of the cast scale to the second one in the fourth thread!

 

[Infinitinet]

Seems fine if I remember the series right.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree

 

[ImNot4nUser]

I have my says and comments regarding this, but this still have to pass through the check so I will wait till then.

 

[deonment]

I do just disagree with this arrangement of the cosmology, especially the idea here of there being "hierarchies" of some sort
Here is what I moreso think works

Timeline-Low 2-C (The reason here is obvious)

Genesis Frogs-2-A (Collection of infinite Timelines)

Dream Bubbles-At Least 2-A (Is at least equal in scope to Genesis Frogs, some stuff implies them being larger but doesn't hard confirm it like the Horrorterror profile would like to say)

Hierarchy of Creators-At Least High 1-B Likely 1-A+ (While I personally think that the stuff about Creators is absolutely High 1-B at the bare minimum in my mind, and I can see why some people would see why some people would low ball it to that tier, but I very much think 1-A+ is more correct here.)

Furthest Ring-At Least 1-A Likely High 1-A (Yeah uh, the whole "is just bigger than the Creator Hierarchy" is just the start of what is there for the Furthest Ring being High 1-A, we have the statements regarding the Furthest Ring being the default level of reality, but we also have stuff regarding the nature of the aspects in Homestuck (which are what construct it at the most basic level), such as the several statements regarding them being platonic-esque in nature, how ideas function as the basic building blocks of being, how certain ideas are more fundamental than others with some being so basic that they either cannot be broken down into simpler ones, or to do so is nearly impossible, and also their general type 1 nature and being irreducible to other things. Which should make the point about the Furthest Ring being qualitatively superior far more solid)

Transcendence Path-1 layer above baseline (Have transcended the furthest ring and its concepts and reached "full light of reality")
The Story/Instances/"Timelines"-2 layers above baseline (I either think that this is where the R>F starts, or what is R>F'd, but I believe in the former more than the latter)
Paradox Space-Scales above 2 layers above baseline (Scales above The Story at least quantitatively, but there isn't enough stuff I can remember about PS to make that qualitative atm, so it would just upscale in scope)

And from here is the scaling for stuff

Furthest Ring/Noble Circle<Weakened Lord English>Davepetasprite/Epilogue John
<<
Transcendence Path Feferi/MSPA Reader
<<
Post Act 7 Aradia=<The Story<The Retcon/Blackout
<
Authors (The Director, Hussie and Doc Scratch)<Lord English<Alt Calliope=Ult Selves=First Guardian MSPA Reader=<Paradox Space

And yes, I'm saying First Guardian MSPA Reader does not transcend Ult Dirk and Alt Calliope, because the evidence for such is weak at best, and based on the fact that Earth C exists (which isn't Alt Calliope's true form anyways), and the existence of Ult Dirk in the game, the same Ult Dirk that actively makes a body to exist within the story and interact with MSPA Reader and Dirk, which in neither case scale to their true forms, instead he would scale to their level by way of absorbing the entire Green Sun Calliope style, along with his ability to manipulate the alpha timeline, cancel the blackout and speak in the same manner Ult Dirk and other Narrators do in the game all pointing towards that being his level of existence

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Transcendence Path-1 layer above baseline (Have transcended the furthest ring and its concepts and reached "full light of reality")

Disagree with this, nothing in the story implies this. And in fact, it's highly likely that the MSPAR only managed to achieve the full light of reality due to an Horrorterror empowering them in the first place. Never knew the reason why it was assumed to be Noble Circle<MSPAR (Trascendence Path). Unless you can justify it.

• THe MSPAR contacted a metaphysical periscope thanks to Feferi's Lusus, in fact, the Lusus body acted as a way to commune with The Wise One. Feferi's Lusus is the "Emissary of the Horrorterrors".
• It uses Karako as a vessel and appears on the Dark Carnival, the only other Dark Carnival in Homestuck is the one that (Vriska) and Meenah found in a Dream Bubble which is directly tied to the Horrorterrors.

Genesis Frogs<Infinite Hierarchy<Furthest Ring<Paradox Space<The Narrative (higher textual plane)/Collection of Stories that make up reality. And that's about it.

The hierarchy being 1-A+ and all of the above just being the necessary higher tiers that accomodate.

And yes, I'm saying First Guardian MSPA Reader does not transcend Ult Dirk and Alt Calliope, because the evidence for such is weak at best, and based on the fact that Earth C exists (which isn't Alt Calliope's true form anyways), and the existence of Ult Dirk in the game, the same Ult Dirk that actively makes a body to exist within the story and interact with MSPA Reader and Dirk, which in neither case scale to their true forms, instead he would scale to their level by way of absorbing the entire Green Sun Calliope style, along with his ability to manipulate the alpha timeline, cancel the blackout and speak in the same manner Ult Dirk and other Narrators do in the game all pointing towards that being his level of existence

The MSPAR has a statement of being bigger than the story, neither Dirk or Calliope has such statement, in fact, they only have statements of their True Form existing in the Narrative (Higher textual plane), while FG MSPAR is outright bigger than it.

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

I agree

 

[deonment]

Disagree with this, nothing in the story implies this. And in fact, it's highly likely that the MSPAR only managed to achieve the full light of reality due to an Horrorterror empowering them in the first place. Never knew the reason why it was assumed to be Noble Circle<MSPAR (Trascendence Path). Unless you can justify it.

• THe MSPAR contacted a metaphysical periscope thanks to Feferi's Lusus, in fact, the Lusus body acted as a way to commune with The Wise One. Feferi's Lusus is the "Emissary of the Horrorterrors".
• It uses Karako as a vessel and appears on the Dark Carnival, the only other Dark Carnival in Homestuck is the one that (Vriska) and Meenah found in a Dream Bubble which is directly tied to the Horrorterrors.

Huh, neat, they would probably still be High 1-A though, just baseline likely, and instead the FR would be above baseline, unless you want to say the full light of reality is the true state of the FR in this case, which is eh

Paradox Space<The Narrative (higher textual plane)/Collection of Stories that make up reality. And that's about it.

I disagree with that notion, Paradox Space is above stories to me, very likely just being the narrative itself, considering how Paradox space is directly associated with the powers that be when it comes to the narrative, existing as the invisible riddler, how the karako scan talks about this particular instance of the story, being the source of the meta-villain stuff and LE's inability to die until his existence has been validated, etc (and is also likely the higher textual plane in question where narrator's narrate from, and if not that, then the place we see in pesterquest), along with Authors, Ult Tiers and those on that level still being restricted in what they can fully actualize within its rules

The MSPAR has a statement of being bigger than the story, neither Dirk or Calliope has such statement, in fact, they only have statements of their True Form existing in the Narrative (Higher textual plane), while FG MSPAR is outright bigger than it.

No?
Firstly, both him and Alt Calliope performed the same feat, that being completely absorbing the Green Sun and all its narrative energy and using such to ascend to a higher level of power, and there is no reason to assume he is special when it comes to such
Secondly, MSPA Reader only has a statement of being bigger than his story, ie the events of friendism and pesterquest, where we are directly told that it is that story and that story, in particular, he is bigger than, with it being referred to in the singular, and as a "timeline" (no I am not arguing it is anywhere close to Low 2-C, I am just using it to point out how it is specific in what he transcends), so no, he does not transcend the story or narrative as a whole, and combined with the fact that in the ending scenes he literally starts to speak like how Ult Dirk did before he made himself a body, I disagree with the notion of him being above them

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Huh, neat, they would probably still be High 1-A though, just baseline likely, and instead the FR would be above baseline, unless you want to say the full light of reality is the true state of the FR in this case, which is eh

If justification are needed, it would look like this:

The Wise One, who is hinted to be an Horrorterror (literally contacted by one of the eyes of Feferi's horrorterror lusus which is literally the "Emissary of the Horrorterrors") gave them both energy to trascend the meta-rivers and after eons of meditation, achieve the full light of existence with the power of gods

I disagree with that notion, Paradox Space is above stories to me, very likely just being the narrative itself, considering how Paradox space is directly associated with the powers that be when it comes to the narrative, existing as the invisible riddler, how the karako scan talks about this particular instance of the story, being the source of the meta-villain stuff and LE's inability to die until his existence has been validated, etc (and is also likely the higher textual plane in question where narrator's narrate from, and if not that, then the place we see in pesterquest), along with Authors, Ult Tiers and those on that level still being restricted in what they can fully actualize within its rules

Disagree because by definition, Ultimate Selves cross the boundaries of Paradox Space,

Which imply they expand beyond its confines, yet we know that they exist within the higher textual plane.

And such being the case, then the Paradox Space and the narrative plane are not the same thing. And likewise, we know that English is on the same level of Dirk and Al. The Invisble Riddler is a narrative level force, an authorial force of mischief, like a narrative phenomena, father time is merely how Karaka associated such invisible figure.

English galvanize such narrative force passively.

I disagree with the notion of him being above them

I will only quote this part but it is directed towards the whole paragraph, to avoid clug thread. But it has been previously accepted that 'stories' and the size of the cosmology they encompass can vary, but that the "narrative" is the same level of trascendence above the cosmology that any story encompassess (Basically a story can have 1-C cosmology, and another 1-A but the narrative will either way, be above both of them by the same margin).

Unless you mean that he is only bigger than the cosmology in sheer size (thus H1-A)

Also, implying he was merely absorbing the Green Sun like a simile to Alt.Calliope is wrong, considering he also was a Retcon User (with even better mastery than John Egbert by the way) which means that his state of existence is 1-A by defacto, not his physicals, but his "narrative" is unbound by that level. As a gap in the "story". Likewise, he merged with the conciousness of all his doomed selves thanks to Aradia.

All GT Al was is 2-A. The other was a story gap with multiverse conciousness merged in one.

 

[deonment]

If justification are needed, it would look like this:

I would rather it be like

Was awakened to the full light of Reality by The Wise One, which exists beyond an infinite hierarchy of creators and meta-rivers, each of which are greater than the one below them, controlling them as one may pieces on a chessboard

Disagree because by definition, Ultimate Selves cross the boundaries of Paradox Space,

Which imply they expand beyond its confines, yet we know that they exist within the higher textual plane.

No that, isn't what that's about though, this is about how Ultimate Selves hold the complete knowledge and experience of all selves of a person, regardless of any other factors, so no, that doesn't mean they are beyond Paradox Space at all

And such being the case, then the Paradox Space and the narrative plane are not the same thing. And likewise, we know that English is on the same level of Dirk and Al.

You mean that same Paradox Space that is responsible for this?
In addition to the fact that Paradox Space itself is what has sanctioned and allowed for his existence (As stated by Doc Strach himself), and is what allows for his eventual end as stated in the book

Hell, even the "supreme villain" isn't really the villainous focal point. More like an elusive parody of one. A more symbolic Figure of Menace, or a demonic avatar for the dire preconditions of adversity built into Paradox Space. We heard Vriska a few pages ago invoke his catch phrase, but in reference to Jack rather than English: "He is already here." It's true. The threat, whether it's Jack or LE, already exists, regardless of whether you try to bring him about or instead preempt his existence. Any "supreme villain" in this story will be intrinsically stitched into the fabric of cyclical reality. You can't stop them from coming into being, and you can't make them dead until they're good and ready to go, as authorized by Paradox Space.

The Invisble Riddler is a narrative level force, an authorial force of mischief, like a narrative phenomena,

Yeah, which is directly associated with Paradox Space itself and is also associated with the whole bit of LE being the avatar of adversity of Paradox Space, something that is nearly the same as what Hussie says the riddler is "A much less cagey explanation is, it's probably best interpreted as the forces of mischief and authorial cruelty or callousness toward the subjects within this fiction, which are laced into the entire narrative and relate closely to the quality of "authorial scorn" that was mentioned earlier in some of the Vriska meta."

father time is merely how Karaka associated such invisible figure.

And? That has no effect on my arguments here, the Invisible Riddler is directly called out as either being Paradox Space, or is heavily associated with such a fact, Karkat associating such with time wasn't part of my argument, and in fact only bolsters it considering the overall nature of Paradox Space

English galvanize such narrative force passively.

Yeah, galvanized, as in to make active, the Lord (The Active master class) of Time with control over inevitability who is the supreme villain of Paradox space and the literal avatar of the innate antagonism the story has to those within it. Of course he would

I will only quote this part but it is directed towards the whole paragraph, to avoid clug thread. But it has been previously accepted that 'stories' and the size of the cosmology they encompass can vary, but that the "narrative" is the same level of trascendence above the cosmology that any story encompassess (Basically a story can have 1-C cosmology, and another 1-A but the narrative will either way, be above both of them by the same margin).

Unless you mean that he is only bigger than the cosmology in sheer size (thus H1-A)

I am aware, however, my thing is that the entire ending sequence where MSPAR becomes a first guardian expressly only refers to one story, and at that only refers to the story of Pesterquest + Friendism, because that is what we see the Blackout start to **** up, when the Alpha Timeline starts to crumble due to the effects of the retcon, it is MSPAR's Story, not the story of Homestuck, Ult Dirk makes that expressly clear

And I'm saying he only scales to the rest of the (actual) God Tiers.
god homestuck makes using the verbiage so bad

Also, implying he was merely absorbing the Green Sun like a simile to Alt.Calliope is wrong, considering he also was a Retcon User (with even better mastery than John Egbert by the way) which means that his state of existence is 1-A by defacto, not his physicals, but his "narrative" is unbound by that level. As a gap in the "story". Likewise, he merged with the conciousness of all his doomed selves thanks to Aradia.

All GT Al was is 2-A. The other was a story gap with multiverse conciousness merged in one.

That doesn't really change anything, at best you can make an argument about him also reaching Ult Tier status due to that, but nothing that would genuinely push beyond the fact that you just absorbed the literal centerpiece of the story, the largest raw source of narrative. Hell, both of them did similar things with it after the fact, that being creating their own "timeline" where people are in fact, allowed to be happy.

I am very comfortable in saying that that gap doesn't really mean much compared to the raw power of the Green Sun itself, letting them jumping multiple whole rungs up the ladder of existence.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I agree with this. Although TP Feferi and TP MSPA Reader should be baseline, I think it makes more sense given the reasons above.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree with this

 

[Napoleondevious]

Size wise, they are stated to be infinitely larger and vaster than lower rivers, with the "planets" said rivers reside on (which, given the context, probably means the universe/plane of existence said creator is on) is swept by the next higher river, viewing them as mere pixels and being controlled like chessboards. Alongside that, there are infinite levels of meta-rivers.

im pretty sure thats an anti feat for qualitative superiority, if the higher realm can be expressed as an addition of lower realm it means they both reside in the same material plane of existence, here the quantitative difference is infinite, an outerversal realm isnt 'infinitely' greater than any dimensional spaces, its unquantifiable

 

[deonment]

im pretty sure thats an anti feat for qualitative superiority, if the higher realm can be expressed as an addition of lower realm it means they both reside in the same material plane of existence, here the quantitative difference is infinite, an outerversal realm isnt 'infinitely' greater than any dimensional spaces, its unquantifiable

They literally aren't, I'm decently sure you are getting the addition bit from the pixel scan, which is just being used to say that reality is much vaster than assumed, rather than saying they exist on the same level of existence or whatever, this is expressly not true given literally everything else, ie the chessboard comparison and the fact that each higher level is a story which encompasses the stories of the lower levels of existence, and a statement of something being "infinitely vaster" doesn't act as an antifeat for 1-A, hell it can act as supporting evidence

 

[Napoleondevious]

and a statement of something being "infinitely vaster" doesn't act as an antifeat for 1-A, hell it can act as supporting evidence

"Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle."

the realm can be expressed as a sum (or any mathematical operation) of infinite lower realm, so the higher relam size is in the same quantitative domain as the lower realm and so not qualitative, regardless the quantity even absolutely infinite (thats why low outerversal is a thing)

"The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context."

also you did nothing beside saying im wrong, and giving support evidences for the qualitative superiority, im only talking about the anti feat

 

[Thelastmlg]

Snip

that’s the thing

Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence

This is the focus on the nature of the meta rivers, that they control the lower ones as just stories that are completely unbound by any alterations on them, the focus is not on the “infinitely vaster” part, therefore it doesn’t count as a numerical difference

When you consider the analogy of it controlling lower ones as chessboards, viewing them as pixels and even the meta-rivers themselves being metaphors for the universes and their fate and causality rather than literal rivers, it is most likely that they are using infinite to explain the gap in significance and influence rather than a literal numerical gap

Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context."

Also nothing in the text implies them being of “material composition” as far as i can tell

So while you can interpret it as an anti feat, i think is just as easy as interpreting that it isn’t putting a cap on their difference

 

[Napoleondevious]

that’s the thing

Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence

This is the focus on the nature of the meta rivers, that they control the lower ones as just stories that are completely unbound by any alterations on them, the focus is not on the “infinitely vaster” part, therefore it doesn’t count as a numerical difference

When you consider the analogy of it controlling lower ones as chessboards, viewing them as pixels and even the meta-rivers themselves being metaphors for the universes and their fate and causality rather than literal rivers, it is most likely that they are using infinite to explain the gap in significance and influence rather than a literal numerical gap

Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context."

Also nothing in the text implies them being of “material composition” as far as i can tell

So while you can interpret it as an anti feat, i think is just as easy as interpreting that it isn’t putting a cap on their difference

I see what you mean yeah, my concern was that you shouldve explain if it was literal (quantified) or more to outline a difference that isnt exactly infinite

 

[Napoleondevious]

that’s the thing

I agree on 1-A+ section i guess, ill take a look later on the rest, i am not knowledgeable enough on the verse to agree on the scaling tho

 

[Thelastmlg]

bump

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Sure, i think this is mostly fine.