Lucifer and Azazel Downgrade

[Ryukama]

Hello. I have a few concerns regarding the ratings of Lucifer Morningstar's depowered form and Azazel.

Azazel gets its 2-C rating through its true form being a universe (at best a Low 2-C feat) as well as being far superior to Odin, who gets his rating from having a Low 2-C feat.

The latter may seem sufficient for a 2-C rating to some (being vastly superior to a Low 2-C) However keep in mind that we have characters who do Low 2-C feats via just breathing, just having a heartbeat or just a mere thought not get a tier jump into 2-C. So why should Azazel get a tier jump just for being much stronger than another Low 2-C?

Depowered Lucifer gets his rating via powerscaling to Azazel, so naturally he'd be downgraded as well.

That is unless anyone has other 2-C feats for Azazel and/or Lucifer to scale him from. In which case there'd be no downgrade, rather a change in justification.

Any input would be really appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I agree with downgrading them to Low 2-C.Azazel was never stated to be superior to Odin, in fact i don't remember the story giving us any relation between the two.

Though Morpheus said that the fight between him and Azazel could have had a different result if the fought outside of Dream so there's that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everyone in the room was scared of Azazel and also in awe of the Angels, including Odin.

This makes them at least Low 2-C

Azazel scaling to Dream is clearly bullshit.

Also, the fact that it took the Archangel Raphael to stop Azazel, and that alongside Beelzebub he was the 2nd strongest demon in all of Hell, also confirms that he is far above baseline angels.

So yes, "At least Low 2-C" would be better.

Feel free to change his AP to (Odin is terrified of him, and also far above baseline angels such as Remiel and Duma, as the 2nd most powerful demon in Hell)

You could also scale him from several other DC demons who have Tier 2 feats, such as Trigon, but I agree that is is speculatory.

 

[Ryukama]

Does being significantly stronger than the other angels really call for an "At least"? Given how wide the Low 2-C gap is to the point where you can do Low 2-C things with a thought yet still not be 2-C. I'm not sure if just being far stronger than a Low 2-C counts for "At least 2-C."

The same thing was agreed upon back when people decided Zen'ō's feats was Low 2-C. Due to how insane the Low 2-C gap is, people didn't want to make him "At least", despite his feat being super casual.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, Zeno is 2- anyway. Sorry for that stupidity back then >_>

Anyway, there is also the demon who had a Shapeshifting Duel with Dream, who literally transformed into the Anti-Life in response to Dream transforming into a Universe.

Still. Odin <<<< Remiel and Duma <<< Azazel << Raphael <= Base Lucifer.

 

[Kaltias]

I honestly don't see the problem with the "at least". It's simply used when a character is scaled/has a feat vastly inferior to what it can actually do. I mean look at all the "at least 2-A". The gap is infinite but they have the "at least" because they are obscenely superior to baseline 2-A characters.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt It's okay. And I'm glad those DB dark ages are over too.

@Kaltias Well I was also trying to be somewhat consistent with how we treated other pages. But I agree that you have a point.

I'm fine with changing him to "At least Low 2-C."

 

[Kaltias]

Speaking of which, shouldn't we note that he doesn't have True-Godly regen as a tier 2? It came up here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/718189?useskin=oasis

 

[Ryukama]

Speaking of which, shouldn't we note that he doesn't have True-Godly regen as a tier 2? It came up here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/718189?useskin=oasis

If Matt wants to organize Lucifer's powers depending on key he's more than free to do so.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I need to do it, yes. But I don't have my PC right now.

 

[Ryukama]

Since this isn't too big of a change and several people agreed on it, I made Lucifer and Azazel "At least Low 2-C." Matt can arrange the powers later when he gets his PC back.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should this thread be closed then?