Let's finally fix the Accelerator scaling (To Aru)

[DontTalkDT]

Personally, I would still rather not backwards scale, but as it turns out I just am never in the mood to have that debate... so let's at least make profiles consistent for now.

For those not familiar with vs battles toaru history: Accel got upgrades ages ago and due to various reasons profiles that scale to him were never updated. This thread is about fixing that.

So who needs to be updated?

First Rensa. She uses Accelerator's power, so she needs to be updated to have the same stats as him when using his power.

Second Kakine. It's completely stupid given his depicted power level but if we want to maintain casually Planet level Pre-Headshot Accelerator we don't get around it. Kakine is weaker than Accel, that's for sure, but it's not like Accel was trying to draw out his fight with Kakine. Accel was fighting with the handicap of protecting all the random citizens close by, but if he is Planet level and Kakine just City Block level there is no way he wouldn't just have instantly oneshot Kakine regardless.
So while there is a notable power difference there is no way it is this big, right?

Aside from that... I don't think anyone, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Rozi]

I think this is fine

 

[XDragnoir]

There is also the Processor Suit and the Liquid Proof Railgun (the last one isn't in Mikoto's profile but it is still something that would technically scale to 5B ig).

Anyway, i don't disagree with this, but this shows (at least to me) that Accel's profile should be more like Mikoto's and less like "normal anime profiles".

 

[DontTalkDT]

What do you mean more like Mikoto's? Split up his technique's strength? Problem with that is that Accel is 5-B with random kicks and stuff if we just backwards scale, so I don't think any other technique would scale below it if Accel gets serious.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

This makes sense to me.

... Although, the Kakine part is weird, but I suppose that is the case of an author not really comprehending power levels and whatnot. If there aren't any complaints for it, throw me in the agree pile for it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Kakine scaling would make sense if Accel were 7-B instead

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Agreed.... So does Kakine have any anti-feats? Anything in his other key doesn't really count; being immortal, and having a way to constant heal back to full heal (also adding in countless clones + infinite stamina) makes it entirely reasonable for Kakine to hold back and **** around with Mugino and Accel (and everybody else he was screwing with)... I think. Haven't read NT in a while.

 

[Aseka]

I think for Kakine Mountain level at least.

 

[Aseka]

Isn't Kakine should be comparable to Saints now?

 

[XDragnoir]

What do you mean more like Mikoto's? Split up his technique's strength? Problem with that is that Accel is 5-B with random kicks and stuff if we just backwards scale, so I don't think any other technique would scale below it if Accel gets serious.

Ehhh, not exactly that, IMO Accel should be "Varies with vector manipulation" or something along those lines, with only his Earth Rotation and Winged Forms having a tier.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Don't think that's consistent with how we use that "Varies" stat. Varies isn't for characters that can just hold back if they want to.
And the Earth Rotation stuff would have the same tier as his casual attacks with backwards scaling i.e. 5-B.

 

[XDragnoir]

Varies isn't for characters that can just hold back if they want to.

Accel isn't holding back tho, so idk why you brought that up.

The point is that he clearly isn't 5B with every single attack, that's not consistent with how he is portrayed. But whatever, if we are going with the current route then keep him 5B and upgrade Kakine.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Accel isn't holding back tho, so idk why you brought that up.

The point is that he clearly isn't 5B with every single attack, that's not consistent with how he is portrayed. But whatever, if we are going with the current route then keep him 5B and upgrade Kakine.

I mean, is he not 5B with any attack where he isn't holding back?
Since he is 5B with kicks in later forms then I can't see it any different when we backwards scale. Of course, as you have rightfully noticed, it doesn't really seem like Accel is throwing 5B attacks around all the time, even when serious.
But if some of his serious attacks are 5B and some not then I would need some explanation as for why that is, otherwise it can probably not be considered for the profile.

 

[XDragnoir]

Most of the time Kamachi just seems to scale Accel to the level of whoever he is fighting.

Like, Kakine, Gabriel and Nephthys really aren't on the same level...

Oh **** didn't Accel have a quite long fight against Gabriel alongside Kazakiri? Long time since i read that but i am sure it was in the anime.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, they aren't on the same level.
Given, Accel did not do much against Gabriel IIRC outside of reflection and suppressing the explosion with Kazakiri's help.
So it's really just that Kakine and Nephthys aren't on the same level. Although that's basically what we end up with here.

Man, the more we talk about the scaling the more I just want to undo the backwards scaling after all.

 

[XDragnoir]

Given, Accel did not do much against Gabriel IIRC outside of reflection and suppressing the explosion with Kazakiri's help.

Well, i went and re read OT21:

"Gathering the vectors, Accelerator launched a merciless strike straight at the chest of the glasses-wearing angel.
The sound vanished.
The seemingly weightless flying angel was knocked back 300 meters. Like a crashing airplane, she tumbled towards the ground in an almost comical fashion. The reason Accelerator attacked her first was very simple. His powers worked on this angel, not so much on the other angel. Logically he should try to take out the more difficult opponent first. For this, he would have to incapacitate the easier opponent first to fully concentrate on the harder one."

And

"BOOM!!!
Accelerator's attack hit Misha Kreutzev dead on.
Because of this interruption, the spell formation of Sweep collapsed.
Accelerator and the angel of science charged towards Misha Kreutzev.
To destroy it.
To prevent the battlefield from turning into a wasteland.
And then..."

And

"At that time.
Acqua of the Back had taken away half of Misha's power.
Kamijou Touma had broken the pillars anchoring her existence to this plane.
And now, Misha Kreutzev was on the receiving end of the ferocious attacks of Academy City's strongest esper and the angel of science...."

Both Kazakiri and Gabriel took attacks from Accelerator, Gabriel took them while heavily nerfed (which resulted on it collapsing, but the collapse clearly isn't because of Accelerator alone).

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

So do you mean we have to upgrade Gabriel, too?

 

[XDragnoir]

If we are upgrading Kakine then yes, we should upgrade Gabriel.

What would upgrade pretty much every saint, given Kanzaki would be upgraded too.

 

[DontTalkDT]

...so everyone's just planet level now?
Alright, definitely making a thread about the backwards scaling thing after all. This is taking waaaay too many characters far above the level they reasonably should be at.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, how exactly do you plan to solve it?

If Accel gets a tier, regardless of what it is, then these characters will scale to him and unlike most shounen there isn't a power growth from one arc to the other.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Accel can grow in power, as I will show in the revision.
So pre-headshot would scale to early post-headshot feats that Accel shows. And post-headshot would basically be assumed to grow roughly as his opponents did. I.e. from Kakine, to angels to nerfed MGs.

Really makes more sense than to assume that Saints are close to LPSAD Fiamma. Or for that matter close to nerfed MGs, which make no sense as nerfed MGs can combat Aleister, who stomped two saints at once.

 

[XDragnoir]

Accel can grow in power, as I will show in the revision.
So pre-headshot would scale to early post-headshot feats that Accel shows. And post-headshot would basically be assumed to grow roughly as his opponents did. I.e. from Kakine, to angels to nerfed MGs.

That's strange to say the least, from OT15 to OT21 there are 6 Volumes where Accel did pretty much nothing that would change his AP.

Really makes more sense than to assume that Saints are close to LPSAD Fiamma. Or for that matter close to nerfed MGs, which make no sense as nerfed MGs can combat Aleister, who stomped two saints at once.

Hmmm, did you ever finish the calc for Gabriel's failed ascension ejecting Earth from Orbit? It scales to pretty much all of these characters, so maybe it could solve a bit of the problem.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's strange to say the least, from OT15 to OT21 there are 6 Volumes where Accel did pretty much nothing that would change his AP.

Considering that battle and character growth are part of the things that could change his AP that's not quite true.

Hmmm, did you ever finish the calc for Gabriel's failed ascension ejecting Earth from Orbit? It scales to pretty much all of these characters, so maybe it could solve a bit of the problem.

No, it's a theoretical suicide attack and scales to literally nobody.

Not a single character is indicated to survive it or to be more powerful than the suicide attack. Nor would it scale to people more powerful than Gabriel, as it's a suicide attack from overloading itself.

 

[XDragnoir]

Not a single character is indicated to survive it or to be more powerful than the suicide attack. Nor would it scale to people more powerful than Gabriel, as it's a suicide attack from overloading itself.

It scales to Gabriel's True Form (the collapse itself is caused by absorbing more energy than the Imperfect Summon can handle in an attempt to reach it's true power) which in turn scales to Aleister (who dealt with its True Form and other 3 Archangels that should have the same level) and maybe Fiamma given his position literally places him above all angels (which he can even summon).

 

[DontTalkDT]

New thread regarding backwards scaling.

It scales to Gabriel's True Form (the collapse itself is caused by absorbing more energy than the Imperfect Summon can handle in an attempt to reach it's true power) which in turn scales to Aleister (who dealt with its True Form and other 3 Archangels that should have the same level) and maybe Fiamma given his position literally places him above all angels (which he can even summon).

It held more power than any material of the physical world could handle. That's what was said.
Marthers summon was still a summon within the physical world, so his Angels would also not exceed this.
In the first place, that wasn't the default power of an angel. It was explicitly the power Gabriel could reach by absorbing immense amounts of water to power up. That a baseline angel in heaven is stronger than that without first absorbing so much water is never actually said.

 

[XDragnoir]

It held more power than any material of the physical world could handle. That's what was said.

Yes, it was raising it's power to a point it would destroy itself, i never said that wasn't the case but let's see these quotes:

To begin with, he doubted the materials of the physical world would be enough to support the full capacity of an angel created by god.

"He doubted", we are talking about Stiyl here, he may be a good summoner but there is no reason to take his doubts as an absolute fact, even more when you take into account that the guy who i said could summon True Gabriel is leagues above Stiyl in every single regard.

Even the Misha Kreutzev from Angel Fall had been in imperfect manifestation. If Misha tried to force out an output greater than the hypothesized amount, the physical body she was made of would explode emitting a massive amount of Telesma.

Here it first talks about the manifestation in WW3 and in Angel Fall being imperfect and only then it goes on to say it would self explode.

So yeah, i see absolutely nothing here that proves that perfect summons are impossible and much less that they aren't as strong as the explosion

Marthers summon was still a summon within the physical world, so his Angels would also not exceed this.

Doesn't matter cause you're basing it on what Stiyl said, while this is the description of the angels Mathers summoned:

“It is not unusual to see angels before him. Thus, the archangels of fire, water, wind, and earth will naturally descend to guard him!!”

One wielded a sword, one carried lily flowers, one protected an adventurer, and one guarded the gates of hell.

All of a sudden, there were four of those winged higher beings.

Each of them carried enough firepower to obliterate this unclean world.

First it's said that they will "naturally descend" which is already different from how Angel Fall (and WW3 too ig) summoned Gabriel, then it calls them higher beings, implying it's not a mere imperfect manifestation but the real deal, and finally they're stated to have enough firepower to obliterate the world, which may seem flowery due to having "unclean" there but c'mon, it's direct and consistent with what was expected from the true forms of angels.

In the first place, that wasn't the default power of an angel. It was explicitly the power Gabriel could reach by absorbing immense amounts of water to power up. That a baseline angel in heaven is stronger than that without first absorbing so much water is never actually said.

I think i already explained my view on what you said here above.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I think Accelerator can change the AP of his attacks so Kakine can be city block level while Accelerator can still be 5-B. This is the trouble with Accelerator and how difficult it is to scale anyone to him because his vector manipulation can truthfully vary. I mean even in pre-headshot his highest AP is going by his plasma attack which is what gives him the 7-B rating in the first place but not all attacks will be equal to that whether they are less AP or more. In that regard varies with what vectors that Accelerator has available is the best option and I know others have suggested it and it's even in his profile. However if it's alright I do have a suggestion because I know some aren't for the varies only for Accelerator. So here is my suggestion what if we have this instead Varies, up to 7-B, with what vectors are available? The AP stats will change in comparison with his keys of course but I do think the varies option but with a set limit is the best option with Accelerator and everyone gets the best of both worlds in my opinion. The varies option stays as it should but there's also a set limit still. But then thinking on that it does cause some problems if Accelerator is paired against lower tier opponents.

On Kakine I said this before but I don't think Kakine should scale to Accelerator, in fact no one should because he's extremely hard to scale against. It's much easier to scale Accelerator to other characters which is usually the case. Kakine is the only real one giving us trouble because he's the first that had lower stats than Accelerator coming into it.

I think imo it's either best to have Kakine's first key as unknown because we don't really ever get the measure of Kakine's AP or it should be at least 7-C because he should at least be as strong as Misaka stronger really.

 

[XDragnoir]

On Kakine I said this before but I don't think Kakine should scale to Accelerator, in fact no one should because he's extremely hard to scale against. It's much easier to scale Accelerator to other characters which is usually the case. Kakine is the only real one giving us trouble because he's the first that had lower stats than Accelerator coming into it.

Yeah, i completely disagree:

First, it's not hard to scale to Accel at all, if you think it is that's because you see him in some kind of inaccessible level when the novel makes it clear when he is above, equal or below someone, Kakine while somewhat inferior still puts enough resistance to be in the same level.

Second, Kakine isn't even the most troublesome here if you read the entire thread, the problem is Gabriel also scaling to 5B, Kakine is literally the less troublesome cause he, Accel and Rensa are seem as the top tiers of the science side and only Accel ever gets to fight people stronger than that, which is where he gets 5B to begin with.

I think imo it's either best to have Kakine's first key as unknown because we don't really ever get the measure of Kakine's AP or it should be at least 7-C because he should at least be as strong as Misaka stronger really.

None of those are good in the slightest, we have other ways to get tiers for Kakine without Accel, so Unknown is far from good, while scaling him to Misaka without any good reason makes no sense.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@XDragnoir
Scaling him to Accelerator is also no good either because he quite clearly doesn't. So putting him as scaling to Accelerator would be misleading. Also why would unknown we no good? It's clear that no one has a clear idea of Kakine's AP and can't be scaled to Accelerator and you're against scaling him to Mikoto even though it would just be a baseline idea. So in that case unknown would be the more right option as he can neither scale to Accelerator or Mikoto.

Okay no just no. The reason why I say it's hard to scale to Accelerator is because a lot of the time when characters can go up against Accelerator it's because they have ways to bypass his vector shield. This is why it's hard to scale to Accelerator because you're either saying that a person has High 1-C AP which is the highest his vector shield can handle or you're saying someone has 9-C AP because that's the level of Accelerator's durability without his vector shield and without his wings. Do you now see the problem I'm getting at and why characters can't be scaled to Accelerator realistically?

Another reason is that unlike many profiles Accelerator's AP and Durability differ tremendously to each other. Now in most profiles often the AP stat and the durability stat are often the same. So if a person has 5-B AP it's often the case they also have the durability to match, not all the time but most of the time. So if a character can fight on par with someone with 5-B durability they often get upgraded to having 5-B AP because of this fact and if they do have a difference it's usually only one so they can have high AP but have human level durability. This is where Accelerator also is hard to scale with because his durability is so different from his AP and are on opposite sides of the spectrum with his normal and his vector shield durability.

So please don't use that I think Accelerator is immeasurable BS with me again please.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@XDragnoir

Second, Kakine isn't even the most troublesome here if you read the entire thread

I missed this but but no he's not troublesome for you because you have your own make Kakine invincible agenda here. I also don't need to read the full thread to give my opinion on something that I think needs giving. Just because you don't agree with this opinion doesn't mean I can't have it or haven't got the right to voice it. And no wonder you're having trouble with Gabriel what you're saying doesn't even make any sense whatsoever so you're basically arguing against something that DT is basically right on.

 

[XDragnoir]

@XDragnoir
Scaling him to Accelerator is also no good either because he quite clearly doesn't. So putting him as scaling to Accelerator would be misleading. Also why would unknown we no good? It's clear that no one has a clear idea of Kakine's AP and can't be scaled to Accelerator and you're against scaling him to Mikoto even though it would just be a baseline idea. So in that case unknown would be the more right option as he can neither scale to Accelerator or Mikoto.

Kakine has his own feats and statements that could lead to an AP rating of his own (both in his manga and the LN) so Unknown isn't good by that alone.

Okay no just no. The reason why I say it's hard to scale to Accelerator is because a lot of the time when characters can go up against Accelerator it's because they have ways to bypass his vector shield. This is why it's hard to scale to Accelerator because you're either saying that a person has High 1-C AP which is the highest his vector shield can handle or you're saying someone has 9-C AP because that's the level of Accelerator's durability without his vector shield and without his wings. Do you now see the problem I'm getting at and why characters can't be scaled to Accelerator realistically?

Wtf? You clearly didn't read the thread, did you see any of that being argued to be the case here at all? We aren't stupid, we know scaling someone to harming Accel is heavily context dependent and that's why we aren't doing that, we are scaling them to the hits from Accel they can tank and clash with, we aren't scaling anyone to his dura and much less to his shield here.

@XDragnoir

I missed this but but no he's not troublesome for you because you have your own make Kakine invincible agenda here. I also don't need to read the full thread to give my opinion on something that I think needs giving. Just because you don't agree with this opinion doesn't mean I can't have it or haven't got the right to voice it. And no wonder you're having trouble with Gabriel what you're saying doesn't even make any sense whatsoever so you're basically arguing against something that DT is basically right on.

First, Kakine invincible agenda? For real? The original idea by DT was to upgrade him to 5B and i am the main reason that won't happen anymore.

Second, i never said any of that, so stop strawmaning me, i just pointed out that if you had read the thread you'd notice Gabriel scaling to 5B would be a problem cause all saints would scale to 5B too, while Kakine doesn't give that rating to any other character.

Third, don't mix the different points, DT and me disagreed about the Planet explosion and Gabriel's true form scaling, but we both agreed Gabriel would scale to 5B if Accel was kept at 5B via backwards scaling.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Kakine has his own feats and statements that could lead to an AP rating of his own (both in his manga and the LN) so Unknown isn't good by that alone.

Wtf? You clearly didn't read the thread, did you see any of that being argued to be the case here at all? We aren't stupid, we know scaling someone to harming Accel is heavily context dependent and that's why we aren't doing that, we are scaling them to the hits from Accel they can tank and clash with, we aren't scaling anyone to his dura and much less to his shield here.


First, Kakine invincible agenda? For real? The original idea by DT was to upgrade him to 5B and i am the main reason that won't happen anymore.

Second, i never said any of that, so stop strawmaning me, i just pointed out that if you had read the thread you'd notice Gabriel scaling to 5B would be a problem cause all saints would scale to 5B too, while Kakine doesn't give that rating to any other character.

Third, don't mix the different points, DT and me disagreed about the Planet explosion and Gabriel's true form scaling, but we both agreed Gabriel would scale to 5B if Accel was kept at 5B via backwards scaling.

Well if Kakine does have feats of his own that gives him a proper tier that doesn't require the need to scale to Accelerator then why didn't you just say that or even give examples instead of going into a tirade about how I think Accelerator is immeasurable when I don't? I was only merely replying to OP because like it or not someone can come along later and give their input on the original topic and you arguing with someone else over something else doesn't change that.

Any of what being argued? You're making no sense here. Oh I know was it about what I said about how hard it is to scale to Accelerator? Of course it wasn't because I'm the first one to bring it up and I am allowed to bring it up because guess what I was replying to the OP not anything else in the thread. I don't care about the whole Gabriel argument. This is about Accelerator's scaling primarily as the title suggests and how to fix that but the problem is scaling to Accelerator is extremely hard to do due to the reasons I said.

 

[XDragnoir]

Any of what being argued?

I literally bolded the part of your text i was referring to...

 

[Scrlk666777]

Well then I'm allowed to bring up an opinion that no one has had yet. You just don't like it because it doesn't suit you but you don't own these threads and as long as I'm staying on topic which I was then there shouldn't be a problem.

I mean I don't understand why you're getting so defensive here.

 

[XDragnoir]

...

Man, i wasn't talking about that, just read the part of your post i quoted and them look at the bolded part.

And me liking it or not has nothing to do with it, you were saying we shouldn't do something we weren't trying to do in the first place, just read my post again and you will be able to see what i was talking about.

 

[Scrlk666777]

No I was giving an opinion not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I think no one should scale to Accelerator and gave my reasons why. It's not just Kakine I don't think should scale but anyone in general but like I said I gave my reasons. But again this is my opinion one that anyone can agree or disagree with but I would like reasons rather than people like yourself accusing me of things I haven't done.

Because this is the third or maybe fourth time you've accused me of something that I didn't do. First you accuse me of thinking Accelerator is immeasurable which was not the case at all. Second you accuse me of calling you stupid which I did not nor do my comments even hint as such. Third you accuse me of having an opinion which by the way I am allowed to have for the umpteenth time and lastly you now accuse me of saying we should or shouldn't do something like I'm being some kind of dictator which again is untrue.

I also see that Kakine does have a tier of his own I think he's going to be upgraded to 8-A in his first key unless that has changed.

 

[XDragnoir]

Because this is the third or maybe fourth time you've accused me of something that I didn't do. First you accuse me of thinking Accelerator is immeasurable which was not the case at all. Second you accuse me of calling you stupid which I did not nor do my comments even hint as such. Third you accuse me of having an opinion which by the way I am allowed to have for the umpteenth time and lastly you now accuse me of saying we should or shouldn't do something like I'm being some kind of dictator which again is untrue.

Yeah okay, i am out.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Yeah okay, i am out.

Okay bye. You know this would have all been avoided if you hadn't been so rude. You could have just disagreed with me and said Kakine had a ranking already decided. I haven't been around in forever and although I've caught up on the LN's now I haven't yet caught up on any of the spin offs yet. So you could have just easily went. I disagree Kakine is going to have the rank of 8-A and I would have been oh cool. So really it's your own fault.

Anyway I will admit that I shouldn't gave any suggestions on stats at all because this was about scaling Accelerator to other character which I still don't think is doable.

 

[XDragnoir]

Okay bye. You know this would have all been avoided if you hadn't been so rude.

No, i wasn't rude at all until you said i was trying to push for some agenda and started strawmaning me, so shut up, for real.