Kiritsugu Emiya vs. Waxillium Ladrian

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kiritsugu's Profile

Wax's Profile

Random encounter, speed is equalized, Base Wax and Kerry has Avalon.

Wax - 4 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca, Gargoyle)

Kerry - 2 (Iap, Archaron)

Incon - 2 (Jugger, Anonoymous)

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I'm gonna give this to Wax. Barely. He'll probably disarm Kiritsugu at the start. I've been told speed boost are allowed in Speed Equalized matches now, so Double Accel will help alot, but will be harming him too. Oh and Avalon's useless without Saber so no regen.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Oh and Avalon's useless without Saber so no regen.

I mean, it can be used in battles, so I'll just specify it isn't in this one.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Doesn't Saber need to be physically present for Avalon to work?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think for battles with it it's assumed Sabers off having tea across the block or something, idk.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Generally I don't believe it is assumed Saber is summoned.

Wax can probably just push all Kiri's weapons out of his hands then sit on him or something.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Since Wax can just disarm Kerry, I'm going to give him Bloodmaking Avalon.

If it's still so definitively in Wax's favor, I might give both knowledge and prep, although I'm not sure if that would just be unfair to wax seeing as plastic explosives would both surprise and kill him very much.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

So he does get Avalon?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, I'm giving it to Kerry seeing as he doesn't really have a counter to getting all his weapons pushed out of his hands with a thought.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Aren't his origin bullets made frok his ribs not metal?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The gun has metal in it, which Wax can just push out of his hand the moment he raises it.

(EDIT): Also, the bullets are cast in metal if I'm not mistaken. Don't see how they would function properly if they were just made of ribs.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

that's true

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Actually, would wax be able to push on Origin Bullets? I remember a scene from Fate/Zero in which some magic liquid metal moved out of the way of the bullets. Heck, they might not even be visible to steel allomancy. It probably wouldn't change much in the grand scheme, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, he's not pushing on the powdered ribs, which is where the origin would be located, rather the metal casing of the bullets. Either way, the moment Wax sees Kerry pull out his Contender, he's sending it flying.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Wax would not be able to push on the Origin Bullets without some to all of his organs rupturing, depending on how hard he pushes.

However, Kiri doesn't start with Origin Bullets. He starts with normal guns and bullets first to encourage his targets to put all their magic into defense, then uses origin bullets on the defense.

Though I guess if Wax pushes on the bullets while they are in Kiri's pockets or something he'd be in trouble.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well darn, never mind.

Also, bump.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

what's the current vote count?

and just to be clear, i vote Kirei due to his wakes essentially killing him due to the weaponised origin

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

>Kiritsugu is used here

>Voting Kirei

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't think anyone has actually voted; at least the first two aren't counted rn because I added Avalon later.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

What kinda regen does kerry get with Avalon?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Low-Mid

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Yeah, I'm still going with Wax. Bloodmakers have similar regen so it's not something new to him. A good head shot should take out Kerry, which Wax will absolutely go for if he notices the regen.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wax - 1

Kerry- 0

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I meant Kiritsugu smh. I vote him for the reasons I already said

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wax - 1

Kerry - 1

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump

@Monarch/Velox Gonna take a side on this one?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Most of Kiri's weapons would be steelpushed away immediately and then he'd be put down by the Wax's superior weaponry, but if Wax pushes the Origin Bullets, he's screwed.

Inconclusive, as I can't reasonably say which is more likely to happen

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wax - 1

Kerry - 1

Incon - 1

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

If this is a random encounter, then Kerry isn't likely to know that Wax is supernatural, is that a fair judgment? If so, then he won'tbe starting out with Origin Bullets.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think Monarch is implying there is a chance that Wax will push on the bullets on Kerry's person, which would invariably kill him.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not invariably actually. It would depend on how hard Wax tries to push them.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Oh, yeah ok makes sense. Likely hard enough to fling them out of reach.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Apies, is your vote still for Wax?

Bump

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Yup. I never said it would be easy, but I still think he takes it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump

 

[Jugger47]

I vote Incon I really cannot predict what would happen. And they both can kill each other with just a single mistake.

 

[Toxyca]

I love Kerry, but he is conclusively screwed. Wielding metal weapons or keeping metal on your person is a death sentence against even a rookie coinshot. His weapons and ammo would get launched away at the very start of the fight. From there, there's really nothing Kerry has to defend himself. He's far less mobile. Eventually Wax would realize he's shrugging off hits a la Miles and Wax, and he'd just pop him in the head.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Wax - 2

Kerry - 1

Incon - 2

Wow, I forgot Dargoo had made this one. Come on votes! Let's get some more. Though considering how evenly this is spread, a conclusion might not be anytime soon.

 

[Toxyca]

Side note that just occurred to me - there's an especially crucial factor to this fight. Kerry's pants.

.

.

.

I'm serious. He wears dress pants. Wax can just tap weight and splatter him against a wall by the zipper.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Toxya, but if Wax tries to push on Kiri's origin bullets hard enough to kill Kiri or push him back (which he keeps on his body in combat, so it's entirely likely he might try to), he'll be coughing up blood with his nervous system ruptured and his steelpushing abilities broken.

If he pushes the bullets, he pretty much loses. If he gets into hand to hand, he pretty much loses. If he doesn't do either of those, he pretty much wins.

We have no idea which will happen. Hence why its inconclusive

 

[Toxyca]

That's a non-factor. The origin bullets' special properties are because they're made out of his bones. Which means Wax wouldn't push on them anyway - they're not metal. The casings would get pushed, and the bullets themselves would just be carried along.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Has a distiction between the powered rib and the caseing ever been made in cannon?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The casings are included in the bullets. The powdered ribs might be the power source, but the entire bullets are also imbued with their power.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"Origin Bullets (ÞÁÀµ║ÉÕ╝¥, Kigen-da?), which are special Conceptual Weapons that utilize Kiritsugu's Origin to its fullest extent by actualizing it within a target. The bullets were created from his first and second ribs on both sides being cut off, extracted from his body, ground into dust, condensed with a craft to preserve his soul, and sealed within sixty-six bullets as their core."

The ribs are only within the core of the bullets, but that doesn't stop people being affected when their magic touches only the bullet rather than the powdered ribs.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

To be fair, Wax usually begins a fight with his defensive pushing field and jumps behind cover. I'm also not 100% sure the bullets would even be recognized with allomancey.

 

[Toxyca]

That sounds a lot like a distinction to me, but I suppose there's tiny room for interpretation. But loose ambiguity on one side of the equation, with support on the other, isn't reason to rule inconclusive. Wax used a very similar kind of trap-bullet in his own universe - a non-allomantic bullet core surrounded by a metal casing. When someone tried to use allomancy to defend against it, the metal casing was affected, and split off (as it was designed to), but the core was unaffected and kept going.

And even if we give Kerry the benefit of the doubt and say that his origin properties apply to the surrounding material too, I would still rule in Wax's favor. He wouldn't just put everything he has behind his first steelpush of the fight. He's conservative with his allomancy to avoid running out. He'd put enough power into his push to throw things out of reach, and leave it at that. Which shouldn't cause enough internal damage to kill him outright.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Even interacting with the casing is enough. Kayneth got conceptually fucked just by the bullets passing through the liquid of his quick silver, so yes, interacting with the shells has the same effect

 

[Toxyca]

Adding this third paragraph as its own comment for clarity, instead of editting it into my last one like I originally did:

Strike all of what I just said. I keep posting things as soon as they come to mind, then realizing right after I send them that there's more factors: if the entire origin bullet has his bones' properties, then they agai become a non-issue, because they're simultaneously connected to a part of Kerry's body/soul, and are a magical item. Both of which make them untargettable for steelpushes. Unless you're currently in the process of ascending to godhood.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, Wax wouldn't try pushing on them because he wouldn't even be able to sense them.

Given Wax's experience against the metric to of people that use alluminum bullets in the Wax n' Wayne series, he'll play even more careful with Kerry, and probably attempt to place some distance between him and his enemy. Although that doesn't change Wax getting his nerves nuked if they touch his steel bubble, which he wouldn't put down.

That put, I havn't seen any discussion on Kerry's speed amps. This match was made before those were decided to not fall under speed equalization, so now that it applies, I think Kerry would have a major edge once he doubles/triples his speed.

 

[Toxyca]

Oh, if Kerry has double/triple accel, then that definitely complicates things. That opens up the possibility that he'd blitz into Wax's passive shield's range and Wax would start hurting himself unwittingly. I would still rule in Wax's favor, though - Kerry would have to rely entirely on closing to melee, and unless we assume that Wax just instantly loses from his passive pushes, then Wax should be able to keep him at bay once he realizes he's dealing with the equivalent of a pewterarm or bendalloy savant. Kerry has plenty of specific metal on his person that Wax can use to ragdoll him.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Considering Wax's bubble isn't that large, if Kerry got in that close it'd pretty much be a loss anyway. Still going Wax, high-diff.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Fair point with the "part of their body" thing.

Ok, Wax High dif then. Assuming Avalon is working here

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wax - 3 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca)

Kerry - 1 (Iap)

Incon - 1 (Jugger)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

B-B-B-B Bump

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

B

u

m

p

 

[Schnee_One]

Wax Wax's FRA

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wax - 4 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca, Gargoyle)

Kerry - 1 (Iap)

Incon - 1 (Jugger)

 

[Archaron]

Kiritsugu FRA

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ey, nice to see this ancient thread picking up.

Wax - 5 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca, Gargoyle, Archaron)

Kerry - 1 (Iap)

Incon - 1 (Jugger)

 

[Schnee_One]

You're welcome!

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Dargoo, you've miscounted.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Kiri FRA

@Dargoo

@Archaron said Kiritsugu not Wax.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Oh, lol.

Wax - 4 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca, Gargoyle)

Kerry - 3 (Iap, Archaron. Anonoymous)

Incon - 1 (Jugger)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What reasons are you guys FRA'ing, btw?

We already went over how Wax wouldn't even be able to sense Kerry's origin rounds (He can't push on stuff that has investiture/magical properties), and he wouldn't try and push on them.

So Iap's vote has been sorta debunked.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Mine was based off of Kiri speedblitzing the moment his gear gets tossed away. Once he gets in thwacking range, Wax has crippled himself for life while the emo goes to town on him. Even if Wax ragdolls him Avalon regen will fix him up unless his brain is destroyed (it was pointed out that Wax is rather conservative with his allomancy) and Kiri has no problems playing dead to get a hit in. If Double/Triple Accel fails, Square Accel shall succeed in their place.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

The issue with Avalon is Wax knows how to deal with people with equal to better regen.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

For one, if Kerry is wearing any metal on him (buttons, beltbuckle), the moment he hits Wax's bubble he gets sent flying back, assuming Wax doesn't just push them straight through his body (although Avalon makes that less of an issue).

Kerry's going to have a good amount of trouble going hand-to-hand on someone who can practically fly around by throwing coins on the ground. Wax takes to the air, and begins firing on him. Considering Wax has landed a headshot on someone outside of a speed bubble, it isn't a stretch to say he can hit Kerry in the head on 2x speed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The issue with Avalon is Wax knows how to deal with people with equal to better regen.

Yeah, Wax has experience dealing with Miles, whose regen is Mid, and Gold Ferochemists, who have Low-Mid. He'll go for a headshot the moment he notices regen.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Plus, does Kerry have any weapons that are not metal?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kerry has his Contender, Submachine gun, and his knife.

All metal.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

He doesn't know Kiri has it at the start though. The fight goes -

>Kiri whips out a gun, Wax throws it away

>Kiri goes for other weapons, Wax also throws them away

>Kiri goes for a speed blitz. If it works he wins, if it fails read on

>If Kiri gets headshot stop here. If he gets ragdolled, keep reading

>Kiri plays dead and Wax thinks he has won

>Kiri sneak attacks with a faster speed blitz

>Kiri wins

If Square Accel, a sneak attack and Origin bullets crippling wax can't net Kiritsugu a win, I think its fair to say its a stomp seeing as everything he has just failed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wax would be in the air on steps 1/2. He prefers to fight from a vertical advantage.

Kiri would get pushed back by Wax's bubble in steps 6/7 unless Wax is dumb enough to let him get within range.

You're assuming Wax isn't firing at Kerry throughout this. He can preform Allomancy and fire his weapons at the same time. He lands a bodyshot on Kerry, Kerry gets back up, then Wax goes for a headshot.

Wax wouldn't just walk away after killing someone. Again, he has fought Gold Ferochemists a great lot (his lifelone partner is one), he'll shoot again at the head to make sure he's down. Even then Kerry has never played dead when he's right in front of an opponent (see his fight with Kirei).

Assuming Wax keeps his distance, he would be able to react to a 2-3x speed boost, even a 4x speed boost. You're giving time accel far more credit than it's worth. Wax would have to be < 4 meters away for Kerry to hit him before he can properly react.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I have seen his fight with the Fake Priest many times (favorite fight in that anime). He only had one chance to play dead (which he did) and that was when he got one punched into the wall and proceeded to sneak attack while in lots of pain with small calibre rounds against the guy who tanks small calibre rounds. You'd think Maya would have mentioned this LOL.

So let me get this straight, the only way for Kiri to hit Wax is with his guns or throwing his goddamn OB. Seeing as the first option get yoinked out of his hands immediately, he has to go with the second. Wax sees the bullet and just dodges. Can anyone explain to me what Kiri can even do since Wax likes to headshot corpses to make sure they are corpses (a good mind set to have really)?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You're right on that, actually. My mistake, lol.

If Wax sends the metal objects that are on Kerry straight through him (something he is somewhat likely to do as Wax is willing to kill), Kerry regens, and nothing is stopping him at that point from closing distance and H2Hing Wax too fast for Wax to compete. With Time Accel 3-4x Wax would have major issues landing a hit, although it isn't implausible.

Basically, not a stomp, but a desisive win IMO.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Isn't Wax in the air though? I had assumed he would be staying there for the duration of the fight from your earlier statement. If he stays up there, kinda stompy. If Wax comes down some times in character, decisive win 8-9/10.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It's not something he does 10/10 times, but it's something he tends to do to put distance.

That, and since they are in central part, he can't use Allomancy to stay in the air forever, as he only has so many bullets/coins he can drop and push off of.

So yeah, I'd call it desisive. Should I change your vote?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Wait Central park? As in the place with all trees that Kirtsugu can sprint up and hop around? (I completely forgot about the location for SBA)

Change my vote to inconclusive. After the initial failed attempts, Kiritsugu should be able to hide/dodge bullets long enough for Wax to get low on coins. (How many does he have exactly?)

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Well, the other thing is you really don't wanna fire a gun while unsupported in the air.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

How many does he have exactly?

Wouldn't know, but one or two can keep him in the air long enough to scale buildings.

Wax would be able to sense his location if he still has metal on him.

Wax - 4 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca, Gargoyle)

Kerry - 2 (Iap, Archaron)

Incon - 2 (Jugger, Anonoymous)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Kiritsugu takes off his pants and continues to run n hide in x4 fast forward ovo

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

As much as I'd love to see a fight like that, Kerry wouldn't know how Wax's powers work.

Although he could probably deduce he can push on metals, so maybe he goes commando.

Still think Wax takes it more times that not, either way.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

yup im take vote for Wax FRA.

 

[Mr._Bambu]

if only wax was in the same tier as magneto what a fight

Anyhoo. I think I'm going with Wax. If he tries Origin Bullet pushing, he's screwed. But every other instance, Wax should win.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Really, thanks for the votes, everyone! Mistborn needs more love.

Wax - 6 (Apies, Monarch, Toxyca, Gargoyle, Jimbo, Bambu)

Kerry - 2 (Iap, Archaron)

Incon - 2 (Jugger, Anonoymous)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Huh, forgot this only needed one more vote.

Bump from the grave?

 

[Starter_Pack]

Eh. I'll give this thread mercy. Wax FRA. Because, yeah, that Allomancy will be extremely tough to beat in my opinion. And if the above comments are anything to go by, then Wax should have this.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And thus, after like 3-4 months, this thread enters grace.

Whoo boy. Thanks!

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I withdraw my vote

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I withdraw my vote

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Mr._Bambu]

Inconclusive for Monarch's reasons