Kiritsugu Emiya VS John Constantine (The Runback)

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The original thread was never concluded, despite all of the apparent hype and rage surrounding the match back when it was initially posted. I'm interested in seeing where it goes, so I've decided to be the one to repost it.

Let's see if we can settle this the right way.

Rules

• Random encounter
• Speed is equalized
• Reboot Constantine
• Avalon is allowed
• Battle starts out inside a church, with a cemetery to serve as the second battleground should the church wind up getting wrecked by anything
• Winner by death or incapacitation
• John is allowed to swear

Vote Count

• Kiritsugu Emiya: 0
• John Constantine: 8 (XING06, Zensum, Sandman31, CoffeeBlindBird, Monarch Laciel, LephyrTheRevanchist, Huesito88, ThyEvilNemesis)
• Inconclusive: 0

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Does Constantine start with magic?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

In this scenario, I reckon he probably would. Not because he'd be aware of Emiya's abilities, but because...well, he really doesn't have any means of dealing with guns that don't involve dodging and/or using his magic. Not from what can remember, anyway. (Though admittedly, I haven't picked up a comic involving Constantine in a while, so I may be forgetting something)

Granted, he's not the type of person to sit still when he's getting shot at. But he'd still most likely be forced to use magic early on.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Right, well as soon as Emiya realises he's a magic user, out come the Origin bullets.

So really, this depends on what happens between the start of the fight and then.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

(Guess I have to be the one to bring info for now)

Well, as far as that goes, John has a few means of incapacitating Emiya before the Origin Bullets become a factor. He can freeze him in place, weaponize the Synchronicity Wave in order to jam his guns (I dunno if this will work on the Thompson, as I can't remember if there's any magic protection on that gun), or if he decides to go on the offensive early on, end him with an explosion or hit him with the spell he used to incinerate a cultist down to the bone. He'd probably go with less destructive stuff first, but being that he's willing to kill here, the more powerful options aren't completely out of the window.

Defensively, he can teleport, and is just as likely to rely on that as he would any of his magic circles. (As those require him to stand inside of them without moving) Has used his teleportation to avoid attacks, also.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Bump

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Bump

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Bump

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Bump

 

[CoffeeBlindBird]

The thing about Origin Bullets is that it only works if it hit him and if John even has magic circuits or anything similar to it. Another problem is if the bullets can pierce through John's magic. From what I have seen of his magic is pretty much what Fate's true magic(maybe) is, and I have no clue if the Origin Bullets can cut through true magic. But for the fight let's say John does have magic circuits and the Origin Bullets can pierce true magic. Then what?

I guess we move onto if the Thompson can be jam. Maybe. The Thompson is a mystic code made to deal with magus, or in this case magic user. So it might be possible that it does have anti-jamming magic. But if it doesn't would the Origin Bullet that get fires off able to unjam the gun due to it cutting magic or not. Another thing to think about is reinforcement magic, which makes stuff better.

Kiritsugu never comes to a fight without knowing his opponent first. So he might come up with something to kill John. But I don't see any way for Kiritsugu winning.

 

[Zensum]

Is this implying origin bullets are fatal to non magi magic users from other verses?

 

[AguilaR101]

Origin bullets are just normal bullets to anyone who doesn't have something analog to magic circuits.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not really

And even if we disconsidered verse equalisation, at the very least they cause irreparable damage and necrosis to the wounded body part.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

There's also the matter of Kiri having Regenerationn, which I haven't restricted.

Though, if John's magic is somehow able to no-sell the Origin Bullets' effects (which I myself doubt is the case, actually), then his magic barriers would prevent the bullets from even hitting him, thus rendering the whole 'irreparable damage/necrosis' bit moot unless Kiri manages to catch him before he could teleport or form a protective circle.

 

[XING06]

No, I'm pretty sure that the magic barrier thing won't work. The El-Moi magician Kiritsugu used his origin bullets on used a wall of solid mercury reinforced with magic energy; the bullet cut right through it.

Also, even if the internal magic destruction of the target part doesn't work, it still has durability negation and causes necrosis even on regular people.

The synchronity wave would work on the gun though. Kiritsugu's magic resistance isn't very high and he doesn't have any active shielding normally on either himself or his equipment.

However, even with the origin bullets working, Constantine is simply a lot more versatile and b/c speed is equalized Kiritsugu loses his biggest advantage even with time alter b/c Constantine can teleport. Plus, Constantine can bombard with 9A aoe attacks so he has the advantage. Just teleport around so Kiritsugu can't get a solid hit, make use of cover, and spam explosions and other aoe attacks.

Constantine 6/10 after a difficult fight if he doesn't get murdered in the first couple seconds by submachine gun fire and explosions or if Emiya starts off with his origin bullets.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I had a similar discussion with someone in Kiri vs Dresden, and they basically said that Kiri's gun is too low tech to be stopped by something like magic blowing it out.

And for reference, Dresden can "kill a photocopier at fifty paces", needs to actively shield himself with a spell and control his magic anyway to stop himself from destroying all the tech in a tv station when he takes an interview, and only uses a smith and wesson because any higher tech gun is probably not going to work for him once he gets his hands on it.

So I'm not too sure on synchonity stopping the contender.

 

[XING06]

Yeah no its different. Dresden's magic shorts out technology b/c they're incompatible and too advanced tech automatically explodes. A gun mechanically is very simple, so nothing happens.

The synchronity wave is literally manipulation of luck and future events. If Kiritsugu's gun will miss it will. If it will break it will. Not sure if Constantine is that good at using it but that's the general idea behind the thing.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

^As far as whether or not he's good enough with synchronicity to jam Kiri's gun, part of why I mentioned synchronicity and jamming the gun in the first place is because John actually performed that feat on someone else in-universe:



John isn't good enough with it to make himself invincible/unhittable or anything, but this much is well within his range of ability. (Assuming synchronicity itself is able to work on Kiri's Contender, that is...)

 

[XING06]

Yeah it would be harder but still doable, because while the contender is possibly the simplest gun made currently, it doesn't have any magic resistance.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So are you voting for Constantine, then?

 

[XING06]

Yeah reposting what I said before.

However, even with the origin bullets working, Constantine is simply a lot more versatile and b/c speed is equalized Kiritsugu loses his biggest advantage even with time alter b/c Constantine can teleport. Plus, Constantine can bombard with 9A aoe attacks so he has the advantage. Just teleport around so Kiritsugu can't get a solid hit, make use of cover, and spam explosions and other aoe attacks.

Constantine 6/10 after a difficult fight if he doesn't get murdered in the first couple seconds by submachine gun fire and explosions or if Emiya starts off with his origin bullets.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Fair reasoning. Alright then.

Conjob's now on the board with the first vote of the thread.

 

[Zensum]

Voting constantine via alteration, illusion feints, teleportation..etc all around being more versitile

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Suppose I can count that too.

Constantine leads with 2 votes.

 

[Sandman31]

Constantine FRA

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Constantine leads, 3-zip.

 

[CoffeeBlindBird]

I should also mention this part. Because why not.

While it is a powerful weapon with especially powerful bullets displaying destructive power capable of easily puncturing bulletproof vests and killing large animals in a single shot when discharged from a handgun, its true use lies in the specialized firing pin and additional magical modifications for firing the Origin Bullets.

But I give my vote to John

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Constantine increases his lead to 4-zip.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

People have made good arguments. John seems to take this FRA

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Score is now 5:0.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think I will also go with John fra

 

[Huesito88]

John Constantine for reasons above

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Welp, looks like that's a wrap.

And it's a unanimous decision, so I guess it can be added immediately.

 

[John985]

Can he keep up with kiritsugu when using time alter?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The others mentioned that teleportation and use of cover (which Constantine is actually fairly good at) would probably nullify that.

I'm open to any arguments in favor of either side, though.

 

[ThyEvilNemesis]

John for reasons above

 

[CoffeeBlindBird]

Btw, I been meaning to asks. But how fast can John teleport? Is it right away or is there like a few seconds of delay

 

[Reppuzan]

I just want to bring up that Kiritsugu would be taken aback by teleportation, since in the Nasuverse is close to True Magic.

How good is John at hand-to-hand? Kiri can go Double Accel or Square Accel and go at John with a knife.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

No delay on the teleport. He's evaded attacks with it before, and even avoided getting hit by a giant version of a character by teleporting before the person's fist could crush him. (I'm blanking on which character it was at the moment...) The scans above also imply that he teleported before his attacker could make it into the alley he was in, since there was no other real way for him to have appeared behind the guy due to the alley itself being a dead-end and him not exactly being a parkour expert.

In hand-to-hand, John is able to hold his own, but is otherwise weaker than Kiri by a fair bit. That said, given how his verse is (most people can rip him apart with their bare hands), he usually takes measures to stay at a distance.

Although, whenever someone does manage to get close to him, he can effectively avoid their strikes/stabs/etc. by opening up a pocket dimension wherever they attempt to strike him. I can probably find a scan of this if you give me a bit.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Found it.


John can effectively do this whenever he wants and as many times as he wants, so long as he can see what's coming and the attacking object isn't too big to fit in whatever pocket dimension he can open up. Dunno how it'll hold up against a Kiri with 4x speed, but with 2x speed he could probably get away with it. The scan also shows that he only really needs to pull this off once in order to capitalize.

IIRC, he only really pulls this trick with melee attacks. I don't remember him ever using it to avoid bullets or other projectiles.

 

[CoffeeBlindBird]

I think this is a win for Constantine

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Oh. Yeah. I must've forgotten to go and request this.

 

[John985]

No one even answered how he can deal with quadruple accel of Kiritsugu.

 

[CoffeeBlindBird]

Probably with John teleporting away. But a fairer fight would have been John vs EMIYA(Assassin also known as Kritsugu) who is most likely stronger than his human self and the possibility of time accel being safer to uses without Avalon. Doesn't mean I think Kiritsugu win if he was a servant. But ehhhh...

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Well, like I said in the OP, this was a repost of a much earlier match which I was interested in seeing concluded. Didn't really analyze it much myself until people began commenting on this thread.

 

[Elgb333]

No one even answered how he can deal with quadruple accel of Kiritsugu.

Easy, he can deal with that by taking away his magic before the fight can even start (see this sca and also this scan for more info)

EDIT: Commenting was still open so i thought it was still okay to vote. Also I didn't saw the post have already concluded, sorry.

 

[John985]

The op never stated he can use house of mystery.

 

[Elgb333]

He doesnt beed the House to do that kind of magic. One of the scan came from the Constantine comics, which takes place during the time Zatanna kicked him out of the House.