Kirito vs Guts (Duel for the Title of Black Swordsman

[Leafbladie]

Haven't seen this topic tackled before in any serious measure that didn't devolve into shitposting, so thought it should be.

This is for Kirito in Alicization up to the end of the Human Realm Arc (i.e. when Quinella is defeated), so he has access to Full Armament Control and the Red Rose Sword for dual wielding.

Guts has all his standard equipment, including the Berserker Armor.

Set-up is a tournament of Swordsman, of which they are the two finalists. As such they will be in an enclosed arena starting about 10 meters away from one another. The victory condition would be standard tournament stuff, killing/incapacitating your opponent, or making them surrender.

They are in character, not holding back, and willing to kill if needed/wanted. They'd know nothing of each other beyond the fact that they must be skilled to be in the finals, so as to explain them not holding back.

Kirito (8-C typically, but up to 8-A w/Full Armament Control): https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kirito#Human Realm Arc

Guts (8-B, possibly higher with Berserker Armor): https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Guts

Also, since this always seems to come up every single time in a Guts vs Kirito debate. If you say "Guts blows Kirito away with his hand cannon" and offer no supporting evidence for why, then I'm not taking anything else you say in this thread seriously. In GGO Kirito was able to deflect a bullet from a sniper rifle at point blank ranges, deflected automatic gun fire, and dodged a quick draw cheap shot from a robotic cowboy and his laser gun in a gambling game. I'm not sure if his swords in Alicization could deflect a cannon shot, but he certainly has the reflexes and speed necessary to dodge it. If you have something to back up your claim (preferable calcs) then go for it.

 

[DMUA]

Haven't seen this topic tackled before in any serious measure that didn't devolve into shitposting

There's a very good reason for this

Also if he has 8-A armament control, Freeze GG

 

[Leafbladie]

Also if he has 8-A armament control, Freeze GG

Well I'm not sure if Kirito has access to the Blue Rose's Armament Full Control at the end of the Human Real arc. Assuming he does, the range is only 10 meters on the freeze hax apparently, and Eugeo often had to get quite close to the opponent (Bercouli) or have someone distract them (Kirito vs Fanatio & Kirito vs Alice) so he could release it without them just avoiding it.

Would Guts even allow him the opportunity to activate it?

 

[DMUA]

His 8-A feat is quite directly his ability to freeze and range is a lot bigger then 10 meters considering he froze several thousands of guys with it

If you take that away Guts oneshots

The only fair match is 8-B vs 8-B and even then it's a retread of incarnation and other circular arguments no one really cares about

Kirito doesn't need his permission, it activates with a word and it's a starting move of his.

 

[Leafbladie]

His 8-A feat is quite directly his ability to freeze and range is a lot bigger then 10 meters considering he froze several thousands of guys with it

Well that feat comes after Quinella's defeat, which was the intended cut-off point, as in the arc proceding it, Kirito apparently gets an island level feat that'd make this fight a complete stomp. The range of it in the Human Realm arc never seemed to be that ridiculous in the fights with Fanatio, Alice, and Bercouli.

Also, I'm pretty sure his Night Sky Sword is still capable of 8-A tier feats in the human realm arc though. It's stated to be superior to the Blue Rose Sword in terms of stats, and has a Full Armament Control more suited for direct combat, as the Blue Rose Sword doesn't directly inflict damage onto people.

Though I do think the deciding factor would be whether or not Kirito could land his full armament control attack on Guts.

 

[DMUA]

That's via a special power up

Either way, enhance armament takes way more effort in this key so Guts runs up to him and he dies

Wait

This isn't even speed equal

Guts blitzes

 

[Leafbladie]

That's via a special power up
Either way, enhance armament takes way more effort in this key so Guts runs up to him and he dies

Wait

This isn't even speed equal

Guts blitzes

Probably should've done speed equalized because speed feats can get ludicrous from characters who aren't meant to be fighting that fast. Anyway, this feat is for reaction speed only, but it should allow him to perceive Guts attacks.

He has the capability to move at 11.668 mach in terms of combat speed , at least, and dual wielding gives a 1.8x multiplier to attack speed meaning his attacks would move at a speed of Mach 21.

Guts moved at a speed of Mach 98 in his lightning feat (though I take issue with that feat, since he wasn't doing anything there besides dodging the attack). The difference would be a little less than 5x faster. Not sure if this would qualify for a speed blitz. Especially given Kirito's much higher reaction speed feats.

 

[DMUA]

The anime shows that Kirito was mostly lucky and happened to not be in the way of the attacks as they fired. Even without a charge time, he could still see the Knight pointing at them and firing. This why we don't have him rated at Sub Rel, while we have Guts rated as High Hypersonic for Lightning deflection

I don't think that multiplier even applies to the underworld, and it it doesn't, 6-7x is blitz worthy

 

[Leafbladie]

The anime shows that Kirito was mostly lucky and happened to not be in the way of the attacks as they fired. Even without a charge time, he could still see the Knight pointing at them and firing. This why we don't have him rated at Sub Rel, while we have Guts rated as High Hypersonic for Lightning deflectio

In the link it was mentioned in the light novel (which takes precedence over the anime), that Eugeo saw no prior movements indicating an attack was coming, and said his reaction feats were due to his "feral intuition" and "tempered physicality", nothing about considering the trajectory or position of the blade. Even when going by the anime, there are moments where Kirito has to look backward because of his complex movements, but still dodges appropriately to avoid the next attack.

Not to mention, Fanatio also dodges her own light beam reflected by Kirito's shield, and was surprised by the action. Meaning she didn't antipate that attack, and only reacted when it was reflected. Eugeo notes that her reflexes were as good as Kirito, or higher. So the idea that Kirito doesn't have the reflexes to deal with ridiculously high speed attacks doesn't sit right with me.

I don't think that multiplier even applies to the underworld

I would assume it does. Remember, Kirito takes on his cloaked appearance as the dual wielding Black Swordsman from SAO through the incarnation system. So the boost to attack speed from dual wielding should be comparable to what it was in SAO.

 

[DMUA]

Could be useful for content revision, but all that means is Kirito blitzes.

 

[Leafbladie]

Could be useful for content revision, but all that means is Kirito blitzes.

I guess you're right. It's difficult to think about how to approach this then. If I made a new thread with speed equalized. Would I then want it to be that Kirito's Alizicization form is speed equalized to Guts base, and then Incarnation and Berserker Armor would apply whatever appropriate speed boosts they would for their series, or make it so their maximum possible speeds are equalized?

 

[DMUA]

You can equalize speed by editing the OP

that said if it is, Kirito gets oneshot before he can prime his sword

 

[Leafbladie]

You can equalize speed by editing the OP

that said if it is, Kirito gets oneshot before he can prime his sword

So you do think Guts would beat Kirito before he could use his full armament control?

 

[DMUA]

Yes

He needs all of one hit, has Kirito's skill and the ability to overpower fate for himself, and Kirito needs to chant an incantation to do absolute Jack to him

 

[Leafbladie]

Dang, this is rather difficult then. Would love to see a fair fight between them, but not much I can think of. Before the war arc he's not fast enough to use his armament control to take down Guts, and after it, freeze hax would incapacitate Guts right from the start. I know there's the projection of him in Ordinal Scale rated at 8-B, but similar to Star King Kirito, I consider that being to be different from Kirito.

The only solution I can think of is a speed equalized battle, but only at their base. Guts would have the AP and durability advantage (ignoring full aramament control), while Kirito would have the speed advantage with the 1.8x combat speed advantage. And might be able to take a few more hits with the 1.5x weapon defense bonus dual wieling provides as well. That speed advantage could force Guts on the defensive from the start, not allowing him to use his full AP. Of course, then I'd need to see how Guts fights against foes who are faster than him, in order to better assess how the fight would turn out (assuming what I described to change the parameters of this fight even works as I described).

 

[DMUA]

Just let it go man

Black swordsman matches have been cursed since long, long before you came to this site