Kamen Rider Revision: Memories of the People

[DontTalkDT]

I see absolutely no reason for this to be Concept Type 1. This doesn't appear to be a thing that gives properties to reality at a general level.

That aside, memories appear to be treated as being literally memories. So at a basic level I see no reason to treat any instance of memory manipulation as more than regular memory manipulation. Which isn't to say that one couldn't achieve other effects by manipulating memory at a general level, however it does mean that embodying memories does not make you some ultra-abstract entity. (in the first place, embodying something alone doesn't mean you get any type of Abstract Existence or other ability).

Now, what's ok is to use memories to recover from erasure. Although, from the stuff in the OP, I'm not sure if that applies for anything but time/history erasure since memories have a particular connection to that.
Information Type 2 is possible, although I want to ask which extent of actual manipulation we have seen. From the OP I'm not sure what besides preventing time erasure is possible. Do we have showings of more reality warping kinds of things? 'cause if not it's a very limited version.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Well from the OOO x Den-O movie, Ichigo and Nigo (The first 2 Kamen Riders) were brainwashed, causing every Rider after them to be erased from history. However at the climax of the movie, they all inexplicably return, with the owner stating that as long as people believe in justice, Kamen Riders will always exist. That's the context behind this scan. I don't know if it's possible to gather all of this from scans but it's much easier to understand if you've seen the movie.

There's also the feat from Heisei Generations FOREVER, where Riders were erased in the real world (which is 9D) and they were brought back just from the collective memory of people remembering they exist.

I believe there is a greater example of memory with Ghost but I haven't watched it so I can't give you a proper response on the matter.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well from the OOO x Den-O movie, Ichigo and Nigo (The first 2 Kamen Riders) were brainwashed, causing every Rider after them to be erased from history. However at the climax of the movie, they all inexplicably return, with the owner stating that as long as people believe in justice, Kamen Riders will always exist. That's the context behind this scan. I don't know if it's possible to gather all of this from scans but it's much easier to understand if you've seen the movie.

That's just another feat of restoring altered time stuff via memories, though?

There's also the feat from Heisei Generations FOREVER, where Riders were erased in the real world (which is 9D) and they were brought back just from the collective memory of people remembering they exist.

Which in my understanding of the OP was also history erasure?


Like, from most of the feats I see, it's mostly that Riders have the ability to undo time paradox/history erasure shenanigans via remaining memories.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Confluctor

Again, your scans don't show that

It's a conclusion that I draw from all the evidence.

Don't really see how that's really relevant. But anyway, what's their intelligence level?

The Owner is basically the guardian of time and has detailed information about the flow of time. Yuto Sakurai is mostly the same, someone who travels through time and protects the timeline.

Spoiler

デンライナーの全権を握る謎多き人物。常に飄々とした態度であまり多くを語らないため、掴みどころのない人物ではあるが、チケットを持たない者の乗車をいっさい許さず、いざという時には「乗車拒否」のカードを提示といった、デンライナーの規律に関しては、厳しい面を覗かせる。
同時に時の番人であるデンライナー一行のリーダー的な存在でもあり、時間の流れに関する詳細な情報を知っている。イマジンが事件を起こすと、食堂車でチャーハンを食しながらイマジンの行動原理などを考察。それが野上良太郎やハナたちの新たな気付きとなり、事件解決へと導くことも多かった。
また、時の運行に影響を及ぼすような過去への介入を厳しく諫める一方で、時間に影響がない範囲内では助け舟を出したりお目溢しをするなど、粋な計らいをする場合もある。

He is an enigmatic figure who holds full authority over Den Liner. He is a difficult person to grasp, as he is always aloof and does not say much, but he does not allow anyone without a ticket to board the Den Liner, and in case of an emergency, he shows a "no boarding" card, revealing his strict discipline.
At the same time, he is also the leader of the Denliner group, the keeper of time, and knows detailed information about the flow of time. Whenever Imagine causes an incident, he discusses the principles of Imagine's behavior while eating fried rice in the dining car. This led Ryotaro Nogami, Hana, and others to new insights, which often led to the solution of the case.
While he strictly admonishes them against any intervention in the past that might have affected the operation of time, he also sometimes offers a helping hand or a hand-out within the scope that does not affect time.

Which scan specifically says this?

The scans that @Omazio2019 posted above. Specifically, these ones where the Amazing Siren takes Blades' memories away and consequently erases the swordsmen's existence (his friends) during the progress.

"People's memory are time"
"If people remember, time will exist"

....I honestly don't know what else to tell you other than flowery language. Like how does this equate to anything that is concept or info or whatever hax.

This statement alone won't be enough to qualify for the concept or anything, yes. However, given all the clips I've provided, specifically the one where Yuto Sakurai says after time is restored, this means memories can affect time.

Througgh time hax

Nothing appears in this link.

@Nicetoderp already gives a better link, so I will leave it at that.

The way I am seeing it, they basically reversed the time hax/erasure. I am not really seeing something as amazing as concept hax in this.

Time cannot be reversed because it has been destroyed. This clip also isn't an argument for the concept hax, but it's a direct show that memories can warp reality.

So essentially a collective consciousness sort of thing? But that leaves the question, why does the other person says "You have the capacity to invade our network", which doesn't imply every entity in the world is part of the collective consciousness, just this group of people.

This one I've got to explain that Adel and the Great Eye aren't the same person. The person in the clip, Adel, connected all the souls and minds in the world into a network, which is a smaller scale of what the Great Eye is capable of.

I mean the feathers seem like an artistic choice more than anything. This is the only thing I am getting from cross-referencing the visuals with the dialogues being spoken.

Probably because it was from the same one where Adel talked about the network and we got to see the feathers surrounding Takeru.

Where?

Again, the conclusion is drawn from the evidence.

....You do realise that's not to be taken at face value, right?

Yeah, without any evidence, of course. This scan is the following after the one where time and reality were restored.

Which is immortality type 8

It's one piece of evidence for memories sustaining existence.

I don't want to sound rude, but this is literally the definition of flowery language. Please.

Heck, these kinds of words are thrown around irl as well as literally every verse. If we take that at face value, irl humans should get concept and info hax type 1 among a number of the other abilities.

What do you even mean?

No, I'm not arguing that a vague idea should be taken literally for every single verse out there. I'm trying to explain why memories matter in Kamen Rider Verse, with all the scans, statements, and clips. All the events that happened in the story got fixed because of human memories. There is no ambiguity that overshadows them.

I feel like the evidence you are showing me is completely different to the one you are looking at. Everything you just said here doesn't really prove any of this.

The collective consciousness bit is the only part of the evidence that I think could potentially work, but just for that specific group of people.

Please tell me why is that? All the evidence is in the OP, and all I've done is connect them together. The context of this evidence is exactly what it is. They treat memories as something important and explain why they do so.

@DontTalkDT

I see absolutely no reason for this to be Concept Type 1. This doesn't appear to be a thing that gives properties to reality at a general level.

It can restore the erased time and reality, even the concept that records all history from past to future. If it couldn't affect reality, then it wouldn't have been able to do all those things in the first place.

That aside, memories appear to be treated as being literally memories. So at a basic level I see no reason to treat any instance of memory manipulation as more than regular memory manipulation. Which isn't to say that one couldn't achieve other effects by manipulating memory at a general level, however it does mean that embodying memories does not make you some ultra-abstract entity. (in the first place, embodying something alone doesn't mean you get any type of Abstract Existence or other ability).

The evidence I've gathered points out that memories do extend beyond just regular memories. It brought them back from historical erasure and timeline alteration, and all other things in the OP.

As for the embodiment thingy, the Great Eye is the collective consciousness of living beings and is far greater than Adel, who connected all the minds and souls in the world.

Now, what's ok is to use memories to recover from erasure. Although, from the stuff in the OP, I'm not sure if that applies for anything but time/history erasure since memories have a particular connection to that.
Information Type 2 is possible, although I want to ask which extent of actual manipulation we have seen. From the OP I'm not sure what besides preventing time erasure is possible. Do we have showings of more reality warping kinds of things? 'cause if not it's a very limited version.

Yes, as Ovens points it out. Memories not only bring the Riders back, but they also outright rewrite the history and timeline into one where they actually exist, which is basically a reality-warping feat.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I also would like to mention one thing here.

In Episode 49 of Kamen Rider Den-O, the villain Kai wants to erase time from existence, and he has succeeded in doing it. Despite this, the memories still exist.

In these clips, Kai uses the word Jikan (時間) which means "time as a whole," and the translation uses it to refer to "era" and "time" as synonyms. This means that not just a certain point in time is destroyed, but all time is.

This is relevant to the GaohLiner thing above, which can erase all time.

Spoiler

神の路線を走り、すべての時間を支配できる列車。ガオウライナーのこと。

牙王が手に入れようとしているもので、悪用されれば、すべての時間が消される可能性があるという。

江戸時代に眠っていたものを発掘し、牙王はこれを入手する。

A train that runs on God's lines and can rule all of time. The Gao Liner.

This is what Gaoh is trying to obtain, and if misused, all time could be erased.

Gaoh obtains this by unearthing something that has been lying dormant in the Edo period.

The thing about memories is that they come from humans but still exist even without them. There would be no one else to remember them if time was erased. Yet memories of them still somehow exist.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think it's best to remake this thread. I believe there is an argument here, but it just falls flat in execution. There's a lot of context just missing and the OP doesn't even bring up Saber's ending which is the strongest evidence for memories being a type 1 concept.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I do agree that this was caused by my poor planning, though.

If anyone agrees with closing this thread, then I have no problem with it.

 

[MugenGhost]

Before closing the topic I want to remind you that the Revice factor.

SPOILERS: in the current series the protagonist loses memories of his life to transform and fight and during the episodes we see that when he loses a memory of a moment when he has a recorded photo, the protagonist's image disappears from the photo, as if he were not there.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Good find. We will add this to the next thread.

I'll close this for now since I've talked to James off site and we should have a new thread with updated arguments.