Jujutsu kaisen top tier speed downgrade

[Nullflowerblush]

Tbh I dont think Naoya would try to hit Maki before reaching Mach 3. I mean, why would he try to catch her while acccumalting speed

In the next panels she says Peak HR user Toji could have reacted to that mach 3 Naoya with a flashback to naoya reaching that speed.

She also says "Everything around me will tell me how Naoya will move",
And then, she further monologues about how her senses, her perception is sharper because of her enhanced body,
And then, she further laments her shortcomings in comparison to Daido and Miyo—who taught her how to determine an opponent's movement using her senses and how to sense practically everything with an unchained mind—and Toji, whose body and mind are the perfected version of hers,
And then, she realizes that she has to see the things only and Toji could,
And then, she begins seizing the "scattered surfaces" in the air brought about by her newfound senses, allowing her to freely dodge and counterattack.

She is blatantly aim-dodging via Analytical Prediction.

 

[Robo432343]

so inconsistent.

agree

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

1. Off-guard: As said earlier, it has little relevance unless the attack was point blank or invisible. She's supposedly 500x faster
2. Holding back: Let's look at the evidence provided.
"I'll destroy you with the full extent of my power. "
1. She was referring to how she'll use all her power because she doesn't regard Hakari as human. Guess what? Choso isn't fully human either. Meaning your inference doesn't apply to Choso

It does have relevance when characters can actively suppress themselves through the output of their CE reinforcement.
She doesn't regard him as a human in the sense of mentality. Like how Yuta said he'll become a monster in a non literal sense. Hakari is also a top tier. Shibuya Choso who is also weakened, is not. He doesn't also have the same mentality either.
The other evidence is also Uraume treating Choso as fodder.

Your Off-guard argument doesn't even makes sense when she's right in front of the attacker. Even the other blood bender notices the attack and its prowess before it was even fired at all. Like, she zoomed into the battlefield, amps herself with CE and suddenly removes her focus from the person she's trying to kill?

You're not understanding it. She's actively suppressing herself against Choso. And underestimated him. Let me give you an example: Choso is a character with a attack that is a grade above himself because said attack is primarily focused on speed. If Uraume saw his output as Superhuman, especially with the attack he prepared, then the attack itself being fired would display subsonic levels of speed.
In other words he's doing something that is way above his own self in what one would expect from his level of output.
Which is the case with Uraume here who's underestimating Choso. Sukuna even underestimated Ryu himself too when he sent a slash as a test when he earlier perceived him as a complete fodder.

Minor addition, Kenjaku who just unleashed a Maximum, meaning he was at peak or close to peak reinforcement

That maximum used a completely depleted Mahito as the attack bro.
That mf barely has any CE left
Cursed spirit manipulation uses the cursed spirit's Ce itself when using maximum uzumaki.

["CURSED SPIRIT MANIPULATION (呪霊操術 - jurei sōjutsu)

Taking in cursed spirits and using them as servants.



A technique that allows the user to freely manipulate the cursed spirits they’ve tamed and absorbed. It does not require a medium, and the cursed energy of the captured cursed spirits can be used to activate a cursed technique. There’s also no limitation to the number of cursed spirits that can be absorbed, and Geto had over 4000.



Panel caption: The strength of cursed spirit manipulation lies in the large quantity of moves that can be used."]

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

She also says "Everything around me will tell me how Naoya will move",
And then, she further monologues about how her senses, her perception is sharper because of her enhanced body,
And then, she further laments her shortcomings in comparison to Daido and Miyo—who taught her how to determine an opponent's movement using her senses and how to sense practically everything with an unchained mind—and Toji, whose body and mind are the perfected version of hers,
And then, she realizes that she has to see the things only and Toji could,
And then, she begins seizing the "scattered surfaces" in the air brought about by her newfound senses, allowing her to freely dodge and counterattack.

She is blatantly aim-dodging via Analytical Prediction.

Ok so you agree that Naoya was at full speed. Thanks.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

that wasn't what i said but alr let's go with that

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

He wasnt even acccumalting speed there. Just look at his arms, they are free

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

that wasn't what i said but alr let's go with that

You literally didn't address others telling you he was moving at mach 3 against Maki there lol. You instead opted to argue "but well, maki got analytical prediction!"
That just tells me that you gave up on your original point about Naoya not being mach 3 against Maki, which many told you that you were wrong on.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

He wasnt even acccumalting speed there. Just look at his arms, they are free

Yeah, that's fine.

 

[Raiden38]

First Sorry for my bad English.

Ok so I think jjk speed now it’s too high… mhs doesn’t make really sense for many reasons.

Let start with this calc current jujutsu kaisen mhs coming from this -> https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Amost6x/Hakari_dodge_lightning

Well this seem decent calc but it base on one assumption
[ Hakari reacted to lightning and make its hit his arm instant of him head ]

Now from the look of this panel it’s look make some sense we seen lightning coming to his head then he move a little and his arm blow off instant.

But I will beg different first that panel didn’t show where lightning go and because we seen its from the sideways it’s can be either his head or his arms so we can’t be sure he redirect it’s with speed and he maybe just get hit to the arm and his movements it’s can be he just get blow away by blast (kashimo’s lightning also explodes)

Second after kashimo fail to kill hakari he commented that “if aim to the head I can kill him“ implying that he didn’t aim to hakari’s head before

Third we literally see what if kashimo aim to head hakari’s head will bulging out and explode see how it’s completely different from first time? ( hakari also can’t redirect this lightning)

Fourth after get lightning to head hakari think “this fight is dangerous!” And comment that “you almost got me kashimo!“. Well he didn’t say that first time that implies first lightning doesn’t aim to his only weakness (head)

Currently profile also say hakari is around 500 time faster than Yuta which it’s not supported by people in the story at all

In conclusion we have vaguely calculated that make on weak assumptions and it’s also big leap in term of speed stat in setting and other calculations (1-3 Mach to 500 Mach) I think we shouldn’t use this calc or take it’s as outlier.

Agree

 

[Rosa]

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Nothing suggests they were limiting the their speed here, let alone by this much.

The claim is "Uraume was likely holding back", the evidence is Uraume stating that they hold back their power. Seems sufficient.

This is incredibly manipulative wording. They kinda look like they're facing down in one panel, in the actual close-up they're looking directly at Choso and imbuing their hand with Cursed Energy, while telling him to get out of the way. They were not off guard.

"they look like they're facing down in one panel" - because they're looking down. In the following panels they look up, because they moved their head upwards. It's that simple.

If a character goes wide-eyed & open-mouthed, and catches the attack right before it hits them at the cost of a hole in their hand, while exclaiming "It's fast! So this is Piercing Blood!" they probably think it's fast, rather than thinking "This attack may be literally a thousand times slower than me, but I suppose it being like 2x faster than the fodder that shot it means it's fast!"

All those facts only go to demonstrate surprise and shock, nothing noting relativity in the context of the scene nor are you engaging with the analogy.

For a verse without a UES, you need to prove that by power they meant "physical speed and strength", instead of just... power. Especialy since the context of their statement has them summoning The Orb with their Cursed Technique.

idrc about the "UES" debates, point we know sorcerers can amplify and suppress their stats so someone holding back something as vague as "power" could encompass that so if they go on to have a disparity of feats it's perfectly coherent.

You're the one proposing there exists a contradiction, so if I can offer a possible interpretation wherein it's not contradictory, then your position is wrong. You're trying to argue we need to prove without a doubt certain ambiguous factors, when in reality these factors (i.e. how much Uraume holds back) aren't knowable and need to be inferred, your inference suggests the series is incoherent, mine doesn't. Why should we follow yours?

"I'll destroy you with the full extent of my power. "
1. She was referring to how she'll use all her power because she doesn't regard Hakari as human. Guess what? Choso isn't fully human either. Meaning your inference doesn't apply to Choso

When Uraume speaks on the nature of human they specify it's the "human fear of being alone" - not the biological nature of being a homosapien lmfao - so someone like Choso, who has dedicated his life for the benefit of his brothers would fit what they consider human. Please let's use some media literacy when we're reading!

2. She made that statement after a show of CT power, i.e., freezing water in pipes

She was already using her CT prior, so her using the CT afterwards doesn't have to be referencing just CT power.

3. Blocking it, etc: Means **** all here. You're arguing she should be 500x faster than an attack.

If someone's suppressing their speed then yes, it would matter.

Your Off-guard argument doesn't even makes sense when she's right in front of the attacker.

It does if they're not even looking at him until after he shoots the attack.

Even the other blood bender notices the attack and its prowess before it was even fired at all. Like, she zoomed into the battlefield, amps herself with CE and suddenly removes her focus from the person she's trying to kill?

Uraume explicitly insults Choso as weak and not worthwhile and the entire time they're focused solely on Yuji because their job is to serve Sukuna, so yes them not paying attention to Choso is consistent.

Your analogy about being impressed by mid makes just as much sense as the off-guard. It would mean that she indeed noticed the attack and its speed before it reached her

You seem to not understand the implication of suppression. If I'm suppressing my power to x-level, then an attack on that level I'm going to struggle against. It's the same reason why in shonen a character can be struggling against someone and then spontaneously blitz them after going all out, this happens all the time.

Minor addition, Kenjaku who just unleashed a Maximum, meaning he was at peak or close to peak reinforcement, had barely moved a few meters away from Uraume when she reacted. What next, Kenjaku was also caught off-guard too?

it wasn't shot at Kenjaku so why would he need to move? What attempt at an argument is this

 

[Duedate8898]

Please someone, summarize the points currently here.

 

[Arkenis]

Please someone, summarize the points currently here.

Arguments over Uraume holding back massively against Choso to contextualize why they considered PB fast and can still be MHS+ even with the statement. This isn't as important since it'll be controlled by the calcs validated.

Something something homing attack (Kashimo's lightning) would still hit Hakari even with him being 5x faster, he was surprised so that's why he wasn't able to react until it got cms away from his face. You can read this as well for more detail surrounding the calc.

But do you believe that one instance where the story tells you that Hakari is a lightning timer takes precedence over dozens of times where the story shows them as sub to super sonic? It's not even like Hakari is above everyone else, like I firmly believe Naobito to be faster than him. Yuta and Yuji being relative while having Subsonic and Supersonic feats, Maki getting blitzed by Naoya at Mach 3 and only keeping up because of the senses, all of them being somewhat relative to Hakari considering their positions story-wise.

Doesn't really matter man, look, lightning is accepted here as Mach 1292, the calc yields Mach 6855. That's a 5.3x difference. Even if the lightning has sure hit propertie, the fact that it took the lightning to be THAT close before Hakari could react means the lightning blitzed tf out of him. This is what we approved a few months ago. Hakari cannot be faster than this lightning because it blitzed him.

 

[57Dev]

At lot of people think Gege retconned it due to this.

He never said he retracts the chapter. Also JJK was never infinite in speed, that's just Gojo's ability. Is he smoking crack again ?

 

[Voidnether]

In conclusion we have vaguely calculated that make on weak assumptions and it’s also big leap in term of speed stat in setting and other calculations (1-3 Mach to 500 Mach) I think we shouldn’t use this calc or take it’s as outlier.

For 4 minutes and 11 seconds, hakari is effectively immortal <= How hakari became the god tier of jjk

Anyways, I agree. I thought this was removed already or was it because the "remove MHS cap", don't know why it still became the reason why hakari, sukuna & gojo has their speed still on MHS now

 

[NARONG_SUVAN]

So Calculation already had been agreed upon before that it was an incorrect . I have yet to see anyone argue the main points in the OP. If no one disputes OP, I think we should reduce their (gojo, sukuna, hakari) speed to just supersonic with gojo and sukuna being far higher because they can blitz ryu

 

[NARONG_SUVAN]

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever for a person to aim for someone's shoulder instead of the head during a fight to the death, the only time Kashimo doesn't is when he aims for Hakari's stomach (a sorcerers second weak point) after Hakari explicitly couldn't use RCT anymore, every other time Kashimo is aiming for the head.

Taking out sorcerer arm is great way to incapacitate them. kashimo doesn’t known that hakari can regenerate his arm yet.
He also instantly rushing toward hakari and saying “time to finish!“ it more likely that he already plans to use lightning to weaken hakari Otherwise, he should react that his killing blow almost missed the target.

The panel itself even suggests Hakari reacted, where previously his body wasn't front-facing Kashimo but afterwards not only is now doing so but it appears to be an interrupted running stance, further we also see Hakari's eyes dilate and widen once the lightning bolt reaches

His move doesn’t related to dodge his left leg is behind him and then it’s moves in front of him. Unless you're saying that stepping forward allows him to dodge the lightning, I don't see how that's relevant. Hakari might use the time Kashimo takes to aim and turn around to prepare to continue fighting.

his head with the lightning bolt being positioned to his head which was ABOVE his shoulder - meaning you'd need to argue the lightning went to his head then, at the last second, dipped downwards. Seems like a very odd interpretation.

It’s homing attack that follow charge It wouldn't be that strange for it to turn mid-air.

All of these can be explained by the fact that Hakari is now MUCH closer to Kashimo (before Hakari was several meters away, now he's within arms length), and so Kashimo being more confident in a fatal hit, Hakari failing to dodge it in the same way, and Hakari being more scared of it all makes sense within the context of the scene.

Mhhh this make sense

The only people who scale to Mach 500 would be people who, within the story, can solo the entirety of jujutsu society and who are regarded as existing on an entirely different plane of power compared to everyone else, is it really that much of an issue for these people to statue blitz those entire tiers below them given that's how Gege portrays it?

Nah We have evidence that grade 1 (naobito) are faster than them.

Unless you believe that somehow with 500 time speed naobito fail to react to dagon it’s inconsistent.

 

[Mori]

Neutral, but can the obnoxious emote spam stop?

Irritating shi

 

[Mori]

Anyway, I agree with the downgrade. Too many inconsistencies. Also because there is no way they're faster than the demon slayer top tiers.

 

[NARONG_SUVAN]

Bump

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Something something homing attack (Kashimo's lightning) would still hit Hakari even with him being 5x faster, he was surprised so that's why he wasn't able to react until it got cms away from his face. You can read this as well for more detail surrounding the calc.

Because he can't dodge it at all bruh.
How many times we gotta tell you this.
Lemme just copy paste.
Lightning happens of negative electric charges, also called electrons, which are attracted to the positive charges on the ground, protons. The lightning we see is the movement of the negative charges in this case.

Furthermore, since Kashimo is constantly charged with electricity whenever he hits a person with his fist or weapon, hes infusing positive charges into that person, which in turn happens again and again (hes sort of stacking), seeing how he is charged with negative charges at all times. When he is ready however, he discharges his negative charges into the now positive charges which are in his opponent, and since the negative charges are attracted to positive charges, they will trace their target. This entails that its only blockable, but not necessarily dodgeable.

There. Done.

Also that "5x times" one isn't true now is it? Because many have pointed out about that calc being wrong. There is another calc mentioned here that is far lower than that one.

We can just switch current calc with that one and be done with it.

He never said he retracts the chapter. Also JJK was never infinite in speed, that's just Gojo's ability. Is he smoking crack again ?

that's not what he means. He is talking about how ridiculous it is for him to go from creating gojo's infinity to making jjk speed mach 3 lol. something that many here won't understand cuz of typical jjk speed agenda is that Gege thought it was absurd that he went to such levels of speed.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

So Calculation already had been agreed upon before that it was an incorrect . I have yet to see anyone argue the main points in the OP

You did see them already. What are you talking about.

 

[Passersby]

While it's never stated, I would hope you understand from both the implications of the narrative at this point and what is directly being shown that he is attacking Maki at his Mach 3 speed in the images you're showing.

there is nothing to be implied or assumed there,the narrative explicitly told us that he needs a long time and lots of distance to build up speed and he's ever only stated to reach mach 3 when making a really long and straight bullrush, at no other point was it mentioned that he is maintaining mach 3 velocities, supersonic? maybe, but he isn't mach 3

As in the first scan you provided, Noritoshi is saying that this is the same attack as his mach 3 speed attack from earlier in the fight. Therefore he should be at Mach 3 while attacking Maki throughout all of the following images

that's legitimately not how that works, the series specifically notes that naoya uses intakes to produce propulsion via expelling air like a jet and from what his showings entailed he is severely limited in terms of acceleration as to maintain top speed like you claimed he could he would need an acceleration equivalent to v^2/r to maintain a constant velocity through a turn, and seeing his short/extremely sharp turn if he had that kind of acceleration he wouldn't need to build up speed to begin with

you're literally throwing logic out the window

while i'm here tho

We literally see them doing incantations and having internal monologues whilst staring at each other,

that's not what i meant, of course, we see them staring at each other, i never denied that, the point that went over your head is, in the hypothetical scenario where these dipshits are mach 500 given their subjective time a subjective second from their prespective is almost 10 microseconds

do you legititmately not understand what the 41 seconds time frame entails and why it murders any sane person's hopes of ever arguing for legit mach 500?

it entails from their reference frame 1 second is almsot 10 microseconds, assuming they stood for one objective second they would have been standing there for almost 28 hours from their subjective view point doing fking nothing, thats i was trying to explain, the fact that they need to stand there and chant in a time frame that's measured in actual seconds and have the cursed technique still be relevant in any way shape or form says all you need to know

them standing there for that long is not only preposterous, it's dumb to even consider that an option, the fact that the entire sequence was shown and it only consists of a few movements at best which was done over the course 41 seconds kills the speed scaling periode

there is no way to for sure measure the distance here since they evidently aren't in constant perpetual motion

we very much can get a close estimate if we just think about it for more than 4 seconds, the fact that time frame is 41 seconds implies that close estimate is several orders of magnitudes slower than mach 500

You're not engaging with this and just pretending like we can still infer an anti-feat,

no, i just basic understanding of speed as was well as what speed at the level of mach 500 entails as well as how people moving at those ungodly speeds would move in the span of 41 seconds, spoiler, not like the exchange between gojo and sukuna in the slightest

if I participate in a race where at several intervals I'm stopping to talk then that's not an accurate depiction of my speed at all.

it is still a close estimate, taking stops or not the fact that we know the time frame we're working with is, say, 1 minute and we see all the movements done in that minutes says a lot considering that even if this isn't an accurate speed estimate can very much see the distance you can cover in those time frames and how much you can move, so we can get a ceiling and a floor ( a max and a min) for the speed you're operating at, you're really just trying to get people to ignore this because you know damn well this makes the mach 500 value null and void

and it's not like this is the only damn explicit time frame we have anyways

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Yeah I wonder why gojo and Sukuna isn't going so fast to where even Shoko shouldn't be able to perceive them. That must mean they're very slow. W logic dude.

It’d be a valid concern, actually.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

M3x and the anti-calc people make more sense, disagree.

It’s about damn time this becomes a discussion rule.

This ain’t DBZ Kaisen, the verse is just consistently slow asf, and shouldn’t be rated that high. People don’t become > Mach 1 via raw stats without a ct in JJK, it’s just that simple.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

What are people droning about now? I thought MHS got removed a bit ago?

Tbh I blame Mex for never doing half the calcs he said he was gonna do

 

[Passersby]

What are people droning about now? I thought MHS got removed a bit ago?

the black flash limit was removed and..idk, really, i just came back 2 lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I fully agree with the downgrade, MHS makes 0 sense going by what's stated on-end by the verse. one feat will never be more consistent than like 24 feats, especially if the narritive itself is like 12 of those 24 mach feats.

If you want to argue with me on my vote, please know that I do not give a Skaven's ass about debating JJK as a whole RN, and thus I am unlikely to respond.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Tbh I blame Mex for never doing half the calcs he said he was gonna do

which ones though

 

[Dr._whiteee]

which ones though

Sukuna's couple of hypersonic feats, Megumi outmaneuvering an explosion, Kamo blocking Naoya from like 50m away, Maki dodging natural lightning, Pillar man dodging an EM wave, etc

 

[Arkenis]

I'll do it.

 

[Damage3245]

I was wrong; hasn't been 48 hours yet.

 

[Arkenis]

Just we're clear, Sukuna, Hakari, and Gojo are all being downgraded to Supersonic+?

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Maki dodging natural lightning

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Blocking , sorry a few cocktails deep rn.

 

[Zabazab]

Just we're clear, Sukuna, Hakari, and Gojo are all being downgraded to Supersonic+?

If there's a supersonic+ calc that Hakari can scale to, then yes.

 

[Arkenis]

If there's a supersonic+ calc that Hakari can scale to, then yes.

Barring Hakari, Gojo and Sukuna should be. Or I can make a crt for why they should be supersonic+

 

[GunshyFever]

Hakari would likely scale to Mach 1.44 based on being relative to Yuta, though I'm not sure if that statement would apply to speed. You guys can decide that

 

[Zabazab]

Barring Hakari, Gojo and Sukuna should be. Or I can make a crt for why they should be supersonic+

If you're going to scale them to Naoya, that'll need a CRT.

Until then I think you should replace Gojo & Sukuna's speed with the supersonic calc of Gojo blocking Piercing Water (I think that's the fastest one rn?), and just make Hakari the same speed as whatever Uraume is.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Sukuna's couple of hypersonic feats, Megumi outmaneuvering an explosion, Kamo blocking Naoya from like 50m away, Maki dodging natural lightning, Pillar man dodging an EM wave, etc

If you send an imgur album for each feat I'll handle you the blogs with the calcs by tomorrow

 

[Zabazab]

(I think that's the fastest one rn?)

Mach 1.44

Nvm, this one is faster.