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Jotaro and Old Joseph vs Kars: Because the comic was kinda funny.

DaReaperMan

DaReaperMan

Bronze Supporter
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Speed has no reason to be equalized.

Old Joseph, part 3 Jotaro, and base Kars are used.

Battle takes place in an airport (cause yeeting kars out of the plane intensifies if it's on one lol)

Start 20 meters away

Kars: 0

Old Joseph and Jotaro: 0

Inconclusive: 0
 
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Oldseph has a win on his profile against Kars, so with Jotaro it'd become easier.
 
M3X said:
Oldseph has a win on his profile against Kars, so with Jotaro it'd become easier.
Click to expand...
Don't think that thread took into account that Hermit Purple is much, much slower then Kars and Joseph
 
Why the **** did i link novel kars... and not really, the difference is negligible to apsolutely in Kars's fafour
 
M3X said:
Not really.
Click to expand...
Huh... I thought he was FTL+ off of the verse page. My bad.

Anyway, speed wise, the scaling chain seems to be:

225.15c = Silver Chariot => Old Joseph < Prime Joseph = Kars

225.15c = Silver Chariot < Anubis Amped Silver Chariot < Further Anubis Amped Silver Chariot < Further Anubis Amped + Amped Silver Chariot = Held Back Star Platinum <= Star Platinum

This what I'm getting for the profiles. Is this scale right or did I miss something?

Also which Part 3 Jotaro is being used?
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Huh... I thought he was FTL+ off of the verse page. My bad.

Anyway, speed wise, the scaling chain seems to be:

225.15c = Silver Chariot => Old Joseph < Prime Joseph = Kars

225.15c = Silver Chariot < Anubis Amped Silver Chariot < Further Anubis Amped Silver Chariot < Further Anubis Amped + Amped Silver Chariot = Held Back Star Platinum <= Star Platinum

This what I'm getting for the profiles. Is this scale right or did I miss something?

Also which Part 3 Jotaro is being used?
Click to expand...
I think time stop may make this a bit of a wash so 8-C+ one lol
 
Star Platinum holds Kars in a Full Nelson lock, Kars can't do anything about it because he cant see or interact with Stands then Old Joseph hamon overdrives Kars to death
 
Ok, first we need to understand the ratings.

Star Platinum - for now - is below Kars. I'm guessing that this is High 8-C Star Platinum, so he just upscales DIO's 1.85 tons value, while Kars is massively above Santana, who treats someone like DIO, as mere food. Despite that, his casual kicks can damage the 2 tons Joseph.

Speed wise, same scaling.

Issue isn't even the AP and Speed but how would Jotaro finish Kars off. Spoiler: He wouldnt. Joseph is the only one eho can do that. And his Hamon is likely not strong enough to to that, and he has regen, wich makes things even harder.

Willing to vote Kars here.
 
Time stop doesn't help either. Kaky could figure it out and Kars would as well cuz much more smarter + he can experience the time stop more times without getting ******.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Hamon from Joseph. No seriously. That's it.
Click to expand...
Actually, yeah, Part 3 Joseph's Harmon is weaker, and Harmon isn't an instant win against Pillar Men, if it isn't strong enough it won't do anything, like rain against the skin, it just washes off the body.

The only way to win is if Jotaro inflicts a heavy wound on Kars, and Joseph injects Hamon into Kars via that wound, while also being enough to where it'll kill him and he won't just heal from the Ganon burning, kinda like what he did with Santana, but that's incredibly difficult to pull off I think?
 
Chariot190 said:
The only way to win is if Jotaro inflicts a heavy wound on Kars, and Joseph injects Hamon into Kars via that wound, while also being enough to where it'll kill him and he won't just heal from the Ganon burning, kinda like what he did with Santana, but that's incredibly difficult to pull off I think?
Click to expand...
Considering Star Platinum is much weaker here I doubt that'll happen.
 
oh wait I thought this was ultimate kars so I got confused by the hamon replies lol
hamon would work, it'd just take somewhat longer but that doesn't mean it's somehow gonna just not work at all
kars has no good answer to hermit purple, it being a stand and all
Jotaro is really gonna be not helpful though, but maybe if he beats the shit out of kars enough something will happen
or he can just act like Joseph's bodyguard and restart his heartbeat if he has to
 
Here's Kars' answer to Hermit Purple. It being Rela+ while Kars is Massively FTL
 
hamon would work, it'd just take somewhat longer but that doesn't mean it's somehow gonna just not work at all
Click to expand...

Not really, we're told and even shown Hamon doesn't work on Pillar Men if it isn't strong enough, for vampires and zombies it'll work always, just at different speeds, but Pillar Men, if not potent enough, it straight up doesn't do anything unless it's used on them internally, we see this with both Santana vs Joseph and Wham.


If the Hamon doesn't have high enough potency, it just falls off them without doing anything.

And I'm not sure if Old Joseph's Hamon is potent enough.
Actually idk why I even contemplated that, it's nowhere near enough to do shit to Kars.

Old Joseph's Hamon might be less potent then pre-training, and pre-training wasn't strong enough to do Hamon on Pillar Men without breaking the skin first, if it's a toss up between Old and Pre as to who's Hamon is better, then it obviously wouldn't do anything to Kars who's >>>> Santana.

He needs Star Platinum to inflict wounds on Kars and for him to follow up with Hamon.
W̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶f̶e̶c̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶e̶a̶s̶y̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶J̶o̶t̶a̶r̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶.̶
 
luckily selective intangibility means joseph won't have to worry about not being able to beat pillarmen defenses with hamon
also wtf hermit purple is relativistic and his reactions are mftl? that's so ******...but Jotaro's gonna be helping him anyways so whatever, it's not enough to make this in kars favor
now I'm curious as to if there's seriously nothing at all scaling hermit purple to that speed, that's so weird bro
 
I'd imagine Josephs hamon would be above Pre Training Joseph's hamon right? Should be able to do the job
 
DaReaperMan said:
He's moving so fast that it doesn't even matter.
Click to expand...
this makes no sense but even so, hermit purple still has an advantage of sheer size, remember how young joseph can turn hair strands and spaghetti noodles into fatal traps? yeah imagine something like that except with selective intangibility and complete invisibility
 
Over 200x slower. It would be quicker for Joseph to literally try snd grapple with Kars to get Hermit Purple to work. Straight up.
 
ZillerBucko said:
I'm sorry, I know you're getting old but
there's no way you should be forgetting how invisibility works this fast right
Click to expand...
You mean traps that are way too slow to the point where even with SP around he'd get to Joseph quickly? Massively FTL is pretty damn fast if ya didn't know lol
 
Itd probably be smarter to have Plat grapple Kars instead or hold him in place, or for Joseph just to lay out HP like he did that string while doing other stuff. Though, Joseph's Hamon is definitely trash at that point (Sure as **** ain't Post Training tier, if he's lucky it's almost as good as pre-training but again, that's if he's lucky), it can't do huge damage to Kars at all at that point (See the Santana and Wham fight, need to break the skin first), he'd need to inject it directly as said, but even that won't kill, it'd damage him but it won't like spread through his whole body and vaporize him, only damaging where it hit, as such, Joseph is really gonna need to rely on Plat to do the heavy lifting, being able to hold down Kars and inflict a large enough wound on him to where Joseph can spread HP over Kars and overdrive, into the wound, or charge up a potent enough Overdrive to actually be lethal opposed to just superficial damage he can heal from like Wham's initial wound or Santana getting blown in half, both of which where like "yeah ok whatever".

Match is less about what Joseph can do and more if Jotaro can beat Kars down and incap him long enough, because if he cant, Joseph is never gonna be able to actually kill him, won't get a chance as his Hamon isn't strong enough to inflict major damage without special conditions in his old age (He admits himself in Empress he's gone rusty as **** with Hamon, and hasn't used it in ages even).
 
ZillerBucko said:
selective intangibility ignores all the stuff about needing to have wound
jotaro also helps so thanks for pointing that out
Click to expand...
Joseph has literally never used it selectively. Even against Vampiric foes, hell he wrapped Dio up in instead of what you're suggesting.

Stands might have selective intangibility but they like never use it offensively, it is how it is, unless he's bloodlusted I doubt he's gonna opt for that approach.
 
Dio is a normal vampire, joseph is well aware of the fact that he doesn’t need to have a wound opened or anything to use hamon, the only reason it didn’t work was because Dio broke hermit purple off
The argument of out of character in general doesn’t really work either, because jojo characters have CONSISTENTLY been shown to adapt to their opponent instead or just reusing what they always do, Joseph obviously being a good example of this cause he is known for being pretty smart, and he would be familiar with how to use his hamon against the pillar men
 
ZillerBucko said:
Dio is a normal vampire, joseph is well aware of the fact that he doesn’t need to have a wound opened or anything to use hamon, the only reason it didn’t work was because Dio broke hermit purple off
The argument of out of character in general doesn’t really work either, because jojo characters have CONSISTENTLY been shown to adapt to their opponent instead or just reusing what they always do, Joseph obviously being a good example of this cause he is known for being pretty smart, and he would be familiar with how to use his hamon against the pillar men
Click to expand...
Joseph is also aware that Dio could **** him hard and he should go all out and not piss around, yet, phasing wouldve prevented Dio from breaking out.

No, out of character is an actual argument, you're not about to argue Jotaro is gonna proceed to do that heart phase bullshit everyone talks about are you? Don't answer that.

And you're ignoring the fact that even if HP has selective intangibility, it still has to actually conduct the Hamon, the Hamon that the skin of Pillar Men repels being transferred, the Hamon won't be entering Kars even if HP does, this argument doesn't work for a slew of reasons.
 
1. Phasing would not have stopped the world, and wether or not Dio used the the world in the first place is left ambiguous
2. Yes I will answer that
When’s the last time Jotaro would have actually needed that? None of his opponents have really had overwhelming durability, and sheer heart attack ironically does not have a heart + it’s a stand anyways so it wouldn’t be affected by intangibility. Don’t bring up the Dio fight either because Jotaro literally punches holes through his chest and brain, stopping his heart wouldn’t have done anything there
3. What happened to the selective part of selective intangibility? He can simply ignore the outer layers and put hamon inside of him. Only reason he hasn’t done it before is because hamon is way less useful in stardust Crusaders considering their opponents, and the one vampire he fought was the one who could stop time. And yes we know stands can be partially intangible because star platinum does it when steely Dan is trying to get Jotaro to steal something, and Jotaro stealing a gun from inside the cell in episode one. If hermit purple was an exception to the intangibility rule then it’d make no sense at all that Joseph would be explaining how only stand users can see and touch them and then forget to mention “yeah except mine tho”
 
He very clearly didn't use TW dude, we see him rip it apart with his bare hands, there's zero ambiguity there.

hen you're wrong, that isn't how we do things here, Jotaro never has, and never would, do that in character acting like he would is completely dishonesty to everything we know about him that it's not even funny, I'm not even gonna humor that. And when would he have needed that? ANd yes, I will bring up the Dio fight, **** the heart, why didn't he do it to Dio's brain? Why didn't Star Platinum just phase his fist into Dio's brain and killed him that way? Dio can't survive complete brain destruction. Instead of punching the skull normally. He could have killed him then and there, but he didn't, he opted to just punch him, why? Why risk Dio surviving the punch like he did when he could've just phased his brain to liquid? Because phasing in an offensive manner is out of character, simple as that.

Nothing happened to the selective part of it, HP could do it in theory, the Hamon can't though, Pillar Men skin actively repels Hamon, he can put HP in Kars all he wants, he still has to send an Overdrive through HP and into Kars, but once the Overdrive reaches his skin, it'd be repelled even if HP is inside of it.
As a different example, do you think HP could phase like, a 20$ bill into someone? The answer is obviously no, the 20$ won't be able to enter because it itself isn't intangible, the only Stand that can do things like that is Diver Down, normal Stands themselves have intangibility, but they can't make other things have that same effect. As it is, even if you want to argue HP can phase inside Kars, which is bordering on an argument that shouldn't even be counted, that wont help Hamon get inside Kars as once Joseph sends the overdrive through HP, it'll reach Kars skin, and then just fall away.

Dude stop with that shit, I'm very clearly well aware that Stands have intangibility, basically every scan on almost every profile is from me, shit I clearly know and can think of numerous examples of such. That doesn't change the fact that won't magically grant the Hamon the same property when there's a canonical limitation at play.

ZillerBucko said:
Also regardless Jotaro is gonna be punching holes through Kars like butter
Click to expand...
Yeah so? That's fine as an argument, you'd be right, how we rate them has Star Platinum as being above Kars. That doesn't mean the phasing overdrive argument becomes ok tho.
 
Jotaro isn’t actually familiar with the vampire weaknesses, which is an easy explanation for why he simply punched through his skull, which still was enough to disable him easily
Jotaro had no idea a car was coming and he actually had just planned to burn Dio alive instead of killing him with a punch to the brain. It’s not “out of character”, it’s just that from his perspective there was no need to use it at the time.
Hamon not being able to go where hermit purple can is a fair point though so I guess you’re right abo it that
 
Although thinking about it now, hermit purple still should be able to just go up his nose or something maybe, or another hole he may have
 
ZillerBucko said:
or another hole he may have
Click to expand...
690711381741142056.png
 
That's just a excuse, whether he's a vampire or not he could've done it, in fact, him not being familiar (which is bullshit fyi, he'd obviously have been informed at least a bit by Joseph on their journey, you think Joseph didn't at all go "oh yeah when we get to Dio here's a few tips"?, ignoring Jotaro already had some experience due to Nukesaku), even without that, he wanted him dead and voiding the brain would have been an easy way to do that, regardless of if he knew or not, him not knowing would be even more reason to do it if anything because at that point he'd have nothing to lose, may as well try.

The car doesn't matter. And again, an excuse, phasing against Dio still would've worked better then not phasing, why punch when you can actively bypass the skull and all that? The reason you punch the head in the first place is to harm the brain, like, in general, why bother with the protective skull when you don't need to? He could've, but he didn't. hell you're actively fighting your case here, you're arguing Jotaro would have rather risked something he wouldn't know how effective it'd be (burning alive) with huge risk of retaliation from Dio among a bunch of other shit over just phasing and seeing if that worked, which he could've done with the very thing that put Dio on his ass in the first place. Actually, let's just assume for a moment Jotaro is an idiot and didn't think to do it, why wouldn't he have done it the next time he hit Dio? He knew that his head and brain was a weakness at that point due to the skull punch, he could've easily phased punched Dio at the manhole, he landed dozens of blows against Dio, but he opted not to do the thing that, at that point, he would've know would work. Why? Because phasing offensively is out of character dude, Jotaro has never used, nor had he even hinted to be willing to, so no, he won't use it, ever, in any match, that's how the wiki works, if we can't reasonably conclude a character would do a thing, then they won't do that thing unless it's bloodlusted, and Jotaro has had multiple times where doing so would have been helpful, optimal and well within reason. In that same vain, Joseph isn't gonna start phasing Hermit Purple through people.

Also see Reaper's arguments above, Hermit is to slow to be able to do what you're now proposing without Plat holding him down or something, Kars is like, 200x faster. It's like if a normal person fought someone who was over mach 10, that's the difference in speed. Picture yourself fighting and trying to tag a dude who's 10x faster than a bullet.

We're not gonna use phasing arguments lad, unless the character in question has actually done so.
 
ZillerBucko said:
So we agree that kars loses then
Click to expand...
I never said that, that depends entirely on what Jotaro does.
Jotaro has to carry and hard, if Kars manages to defeat Joseph, Jotaro can't kill him, eventually, Kars will win. What matters is less Joseph and more Jotaro.
ZillerBucko said:
What’s he gonna do if he just gets his skull and brain smashed like he did to Dio?
Click to expand...
Regenerate?
Dio had issues because he's a vampire and because his regen was already compromised (Funnily, Plat punched Dio on his left side, the side with worse regen).
Kars would just heal it.
 
Not be weird but didn't Esidsi and Wammu both take and endure attacks from Post Training Joseph and Caesar? I'm asking this because I feel the threads tone is kind of ignoring those details with regards to Oldseph saying he's rusty.

As for the phasing, I really hate how Death Battle made this a thing that people assume Jotaro is gonna do off the bat. Chariot said it before but Jotaro has never used this against an opponent. Sure none of his later opponents were as physically threatening as DIO but he didn't even go for this when Kira had him on deaths door. Jotaro didn't really have any idea if he was going to survive that encounter. Part 4 Jotaro is a different Jotaro than the one here but he's said be a lot smarter than when he was younger and we see this when he decides to train Josuke in extending his stands range via shooting pellets. If a smarter and on deaths door Jotaro didn't immediately decide he should try and phase through to kill someone like Kira, then well I hope you can see where I'm going with Part 3's tendencies to start off with the ability in a fight.
 
Last edited:
Yeah they can still take attacks from Post Training, they get hurt though but it ain't like they drop dead, which is saying a lot because Old Joseph isn't even close to Peak Post Training Joseph, he might not even be on par with Pre-Training, which is saying a lot given Santana was basically immune to Joseph's Hamon and his skin repelled it completely because it was to weak, Joseph had to feign being ko'd and get half absorbed to land a hit (And while it did damage, it was something Santana could regen from still).

Phasing had been a thing long before DB unfortunately, I mean, it IS a thing, and Star Platinum can explicitly do it
a̵n̵d̵ ̵h̵e̵ ̵d̵i̵d̵ ̵s̵o̵m̵e̵t̵h̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵k̵i̵n̵d̵a̵ ̵c̵l̵o̵s̵e̵ ̵t̵o̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵a̵ ̵n̵o̵n̵c̵a̵n̵o̵n̵ ̵l̵n̵ but it ain't something Jotaro would do in character, maybe someone like JoJolion Kira, WoU, or whatever would, but that ain't Jotaro, its about as in character as Jotaro using Plat to inhale all the oxygen in a area and asphyxiating his foe, like yeah, he COULD in theory do that, but he won't so yeah, agreed.
 
Nierre said:
Wait so Joseph is virtually useless here then?
Click to expand...
No, he's the only way they can win.

Jotaro might be able to put Kars in his place, but he can't actually kill him, Joseph has to inflict a powerful enough Overdrive into Kars to defeat, but the issue is, he's weaker then he used to be, he needs to have Jotaro not only fend off Kars for him, but have Kars in position for him to deliver the blow when it's ready, given he's gonna have to charge that shit up.

Jotaro has to fend off Kars, protect Joseph, and land a heavy enough hit while limiting Kars to where Joseph can land the finishing blow. Of course, Kars wouldn't stand idle while that happens.

Joseph is both deadweight but also the win condition.
 
With the matter of protecting Joesph in mind should also bring up this fights odd as hell location.
 
This might be really, really bad, or really, really good if civs are involved.

Wonder if there's anything around Joseph can use HP on to benefit.
 
Best thing I see him doing is maybe putting people under a trance but even then thats super out of character.
 
JohnConquest1 said:
Best thing I see him doing is maybe putting people under a trance but even then thats super out of character.
Click to expand...
Was thinking more free blood to heal instantly without expending stamina.
Or Kars killing civs and pissing Jotaro right the **** off.

Former is bad, latter good.
 
Jotaro and Joesph might hesitate approaching in certain instances. I know they won't throw the fight over civilians but.
 
Can't Jotaro just beat Kars to a pulp over and over until sunrise kills him?

Like, just reduce him to a mesh of flesh and everytime he so much moves he beats him up again, repeat until sunrise.
 
Not sure, depends at which time the fight takes place.

It's not like it's impossible given Star Plat outclasses him brutally in AP so itt shouldn't be too taxing to beat him up to mush.
 
just throw away Kars like a baseball up to space. first, SP incapacitates Kars so that he cant resist much for some few seconds. SP throws Kars, time stops, Then bride carries Jotaro up to Kars, once they reach Kars, SP damages Kars even more, then throws him again. Rinse and repeat, until, they reach enough distance to where like, with one throw Kars would be sent away to either the direction of the, sun or just out in space. gg 🤓
 
He could also beat him to brain mush considering the AP difference
He could also do whatever the **** he did to negate Dio’s regen
 
that is true
theoretically that'd be much easier to incinerate than an entire pillar man
though I kinda liked my space idea more
 
StekFence said:
If Joseph’s hamon isn’t strong enough to melt the whole kar, he’s still not gonna be able to melt parts of a kar
Click to expand...
I mean this
in a way makes sense, but also, it makes no sense. Hamon is kinda shown to act like somewhat like a kind of electricity in that it spreads through what it touches, presumably something smaller would make it so that the hamon would be more concentrated over a smaller area thus making it more fatal
but there's no direct statement of something like that (to my knowledge) which is why it would make sense
although there is the fact that joseph straight up pokes through a pillar man's hand with a hamon fingertip
 
ZillerBucko said:
I mean this
in a way makes sense, but also, it makes no sense. Hamon is kinda shown to act like somewhat like a kind of electricity in that it spreads through what it touches, presumably something smaller would make it so that the hamon would be more concentrated over a smaller area thus making it more fatal
but there's no direct statement of something like that (to my knowledge) which is why it would make sense
although there is the fact that joseph straight up pokes through a pillar man's hand with a hamon fingertip
Click to expand...
When he was stronger he did
 
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