Issues with Canon Composites and levels of Canon

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Starter

You really cannot talk about convenience when ignoring these contradictions scream of ignoring things out of convenience.

"The Japanese translation of the move is called "Earth Throw,""

It's just a name. That means nothing, literally nothing. I can name a move called "Universe Throw" and not literally throw them across the universe. Or y'know..."Big Bang Attack" being a prime example.

"and even in the anime, it is described as a move where Pokémon circle around the globe and come back to smash them into the ground."

Source? And this is never shown in the anime, only symbolized.

"In that instance, this move would be still be applicable if you look at all of the facts involved, instead of ignoring them to your convenience."

Nothing you posted supports anything, you gave me an attack name and an off hand description without proof and that is shown to not be the case by that very source. Or did you expect me to listen and believe?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I have a comment from Ever as well;

"When you're compositing, you're by nature accepting feats from every media, why is there still a "primary" canon or a "secondary" canon? Everything should be treated equally in a composite because that's how they work, having levels of canon shouldn't matter when we use feats from everything anyway."

 

[Schnee_One]

I agree.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

We don't use the anime at all for Bleach. The only thing we use is the canon light novels so bad point. We don't even use the data books neither outside of like a single thing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Except, once again, we DONT use everything. We again only accept feats from different canons if they can be reasonably accepted and dont contradict the orginal source material. And that isnt how composite works either. That's personal interpretation.

So that already throws that argument out.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

So what would happen from now on? Would we just take the strongest version of a composite?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Kukui....you just ignored context again. "Everything" in this context mean all media. Which you in fact use. Games, Anime, Manga, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, Card games, Conquest, etc. Sounds like everything to me. Also, isn't your interpretation personal as well or are you claiming your ideals as fact?

 

[Wokistan]

On the earth throw point, the word "seismic" refers to things that have to do with the earth's subterraneous movements. "earth throw" is probably something that doesn't directly translate, in light of this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kukui....you just ignored context again. Everything in this context mean all media. Which you in fact use. Games, Anime, Manga, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, Card games, Conquest, etc. Sounds like a composite to me. Also, isn't your interpretation personal as well or are you claiming your ideals as fact?

We use all media yes, but not every single little thing from withi said medias. Which, again, falls under what I just said. If there is a contradictory feat in say Mystery Dungeon that contradicts the source material, we ignore it and stick to the games. If there is a contradictory feat in the anime that contradicts the games, we ignore it too. Manga? Same thing. And so on. And this is for both upgrades and dowgrades. We dont upgrade or downgrade someone using stuff that contradicts the original soure material. There is a very huge difference between using all medias and using everything from within said medias Dragon.

And no, this isnt a personal interpretation from me as this is what the site currently treats is supporting canon sources. Hell, this is how our Canon page is treated as well.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with Matt here

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So basically you admit to being selective with your composites. You use all medias and thus you evaluate all feats from all medias. This is trying to nitpick details to ignore the main point. The main point is that you use every source for Pokemon, however as it's composite, you should in fact treat all sources equally as you are using feats from all sources. You can't have your cake and eat it to. You just admitted to utilize all sources. I never claimed you used everything from all medias, just that you used all medias Kukui. Don't put words in my mouth.

And the Canon page is not fact, there is a reason as to why this thread exists, to change those standards. Honestly we are going in circles at this point and are arguing the same points over and over.

 

[SomebodyData]

Our canon profile also begins by stating: "With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages. Non-canon material doesn't count - it never happened."

Kinda hard to use it as a point when the entire verse goes in the 'exempt from this' section.

Also holy hell, you trying to say there is a difference between using all medias and using everything within all medias? As if it somehow changes the fact that they're compositing, just different ways of doing so at best and semantics at worst.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

In summary.. What are we proposing???

I am currently planning on revising a verse where Canons often conflict with previously established AP tiers from the sereis prior which is supposed to be "Apart of the same timeline"...

So im just curious what is being proposed...?

And what are the arguements of those that disagree??

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They're proposing 6-B everyone who's not the Tao or Creation Trio.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well if this is a pokemon issue only... I am not knowlegable enough to say anything.. I was under the impression this is something that affects "a whole lot of verses on the wiki" considering the title..

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Tao?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Reshiram Zekrom and Kyurem

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well if this is a pokemon issue only... I am not knowlegable enough to say anything.. I was under the impression this is something that affects "a whole lot of verses on the wiki" considering the title..

It does as it affects how we handle composite files in the future.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>So basically you admit to being selective with your composites. You use all medias and thus you evaluate all feats from all medias.

On a case by case basis. So yes, we are "selective". We never denied being selective from the beginning, we only denied doing this the way you see it as. You act as if we do this to only upgrade when that isnt at all the case.

>This is trying to nitpick details to ignore the main point. The main point is that you use every source for Pokemon, however as it's composite, you should in fact treat all sources equally as you are using feats from all sources.

Has nothing to do with them needing to be equals, which you still haven't given an explicit reason as to why they need to be equals in the first place. Just because we take the sources doesnt mean they are all on the same standing as each other. One is more important than another. Why? Because one is primary canon that takes all priority and the canons that come afterwards have more priority over the other later down the line.

> I never claimed you used everything from all medias, just that you used all medias Kukui. Don't put words in my mouth.

I know you didnt and no, I wasnt putting words in your mouth either. I was clarifying what "using all medias" means for us. That just because we use all medias doesnt mean everything in each media is taken by us. I want that to be perfectly clear.

>And the Canon page is not fact, there is a reason as to why this thread exists, to change those standards.

Sure, but you have yet to give a good enough convincing reason as to why it should be changed. As in why primary status needs to be put into question when its set to be the main authority from the very start. Unless you want to go and argue against the creators of a verse who makes what the primary canon is, which is what comes first.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

They're proposing 6-B everyone who's not the Tao or Creation Trio.

I don't remeber proposing that...

 

[GojiBoyForever]

@Howard

What about Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, and Deoxys?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is obviously gonna come to the head of "we shouldn't use anything that's not from the games." Maybe not from you but this is going to be the end result.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is turning into a pokemon only thread instead of using them as example's lol..

i'll just observe and read comments for now.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"On a case by case basis. So yes, we are "selective". We never denied being selective from the beginning, we only denied doing this the way you see it as. You act as if we do this to only upgrade when that isnt at all the case."

I also argued that you cannot be overly selective in this situation. Especially when the games are contradicted by every other media, but this is just ignored. I disagree with this standard.

"Has nothing to do with them needing to be equals, which you still haven't given an explicit reason as to why they need to be equals in the first place. Just because we take the sources doesnt mean they are all on the same standing as each other. One is more important than another. Why? Because one is primary canon that takes all priority and the canons that come afterwards have more priority over the other later down the line. "

They should be used equally as this is a Composite where all these sources come together. If we can't use other sources to go against the primary canon, we should not be able to use them to support it. This is my argument. Primary canon as I've explained should not be infallible.


"I know you didnt and no, I wasnt putting words in your mouth either. I was clarifying what "using all medias" means for us. That just because we use all medias doesnt mean everything in each media is taken by us. I want that to be perfectly clear."

That makes no difference as SD noted above.

"Sure, but you have yet to give a good enough convincing reason as to why it should be changed. As in why primary status needs to be put into question when its set to be the main authority from the very start. Unless you want to go and argue against the creators of a verse who makes what the primary canon is, which is what comes first."

I mean, I have persuaded 14 out of 27 seven people compared to your 10. Not that these numbers matter overall, but this proves my argument is just as convincing as yours. I do not need to do this. The writers have no say in how we treat canon on this site, we the users do. Most writers don't care about canon. Neither do all writers put canon on a hierarchy like we do. And this idea of canon is not official, but our definition. A definition I have set out to change. So bringing up, "that's how we've always treated it" is irrelevant here.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

ACTUALLY

I have a legit question....why do we treat Pokemon as having a canon hierarchy when we treat everything as one collective multiverse? Would this not by default make everything equally canon? How is one part of the multiverse less canon than the other?

But even if Pokemon is taking care of, there is still issue in deciding how to deal with the standard.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What does it mean when something is "Less canon, but not non-canon"????

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What does it mean when something is "Less canon, but not non-canon"????

There are things of Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Canon based upon their appearance in the series.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Sorry to say, but currently, Pokemon is the biggest offender of this and honestly the only reason I made this thread was because Kukui said this was the standard.

sweats in extended cano

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So, what is the arguments/topic? I'm so lost.

 

[Eficiente]

You can add me on those who agree, I won't be able to follow the thread tho.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

ACTUALLY
I have a legit question....why do we treat Pokemon as having a canon hierarchy when we treat everything as one collective multiverse? Would this not by default make everything equally canon? How is one part of the multiverse less canon than the other?

But even if Pokemon is taking care of, there is still issue in deciding how to deal with the standard.

This is what should have been led with then because now this is an actual point i can see.

If something is a collective multiverse where the canons are actual alternate universes within the multiverse, then for that verse, there technically should not be any canon then.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I didn't lead with it because it didn't hit me until now. Also, that would only solve Pokemon and verses like it, not the overall standard.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I didn't lead with it because it didn't hit me until now. Also, that would only solve Pokemon and verses like it, not the overall standard.

Oh I know, I was just answering for the sake of answering the question in some way.

This point for Pokemon should be taken to a seperate thread then because now this actually changes things.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So, what is the arguments/topic? I'm so lost.

I am in agreement wtih Milly Rocking Bandit.....

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The issue I bring up here is that in composite files, we utilize original feats from other sources, but ignore them when multiple contradict the "primary source". My argument is that in composites, we shouldn't just dismiss it when multiple sources contradict the portrayal of the "primary source" and basically making the primary source infallible when every other source contradicts this.

My main argument. Along with stuff in the OP.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree. Seems like common sense, tbh.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I also agree with Dragon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Taking off again. Won't be able to respond til tomorrow.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Ah so basically don't leave anything out of context? We must take everything into consideration pis, cis, decontexualization, outliers, and etc...

Make's sense to me. I do agree with througholy looking into everything for the sake of consistency, and accuracy in regards of multiple interesecting canons.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Wait, so Dragon can make a wiki-wide revision to downgrade Pokémon but I cannot do a wiki-wide revision to upgrade Zelda?

Anyway, I have several problems with this:

1. This is literally a Pokémon revision disguised as a wiki revision, because no other verse (except maybe SCP) would get affected by this.

2. This entire revision holds on the fact that Pokémon profiles are "composited" from all the different canons. While it is true that Pokémon profiles are kind of a Composite, they're a composite of the many ways said Pokémon could grow (learning this move instead of that one, having that ability or the other one etc.), not of the different canons. I would also want to know what "composite canon" even means in here. Composite Link also has the abilities of the Hero's Shade, because it was revealed in Hyrule Historia that it was old OoT and MM Link. So what, we're now compositing the Zelda games with the Zelda books?

3. I also especially disagree with the quantity>quality standard that would come out from this. Primary Canon comes first, that's like, the reason it's called "Primary" in the first case. If several Secondary Canons contradicts it, we don't ignore the primary canon, we ignore the secondary one.