Issues with Canon Composites and levels of Canon

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So this all started in this Pokemon thread here.

Introducing the Issue
So this all began with discussing the legitimacy of using Seismic Toss' attack animation from the 3D Pokemon games when all other sources used for their composite files contradict this. As a result, I am given the argument that the anime and various manga for the Pokemon franchise are Secondary canon and as such should not be used if they contradict the games at all and only when they support it.

I find this idea to be very dubious as I know for most manga series, we allow anime scenes to be used to get better info on calcs, like meteor speeds and such, and they are still used even if they downgrade our previous calcs on speed as long as cinematic timing is not an issue. I however find these different as in the manga series' case it's using the anime to find a legit timeframe when we cannot come up with a legit one and go by an assumption.

Here we are using completely different feats to support scaling to the entire franchise. These feats scale to the anime, games, manga and side games. We are using an attack animation from the game and proceeding to scale to the entire franchise. Once again using Seismic Toss as an example, in the games we see that the Pokemon takes the opponent into space and crashes back down. However, in any other canon media, this is contradicted. Note that these media are also used for feats.

Composite Issue
So we have many franchises that use canon composites, Pokemon, Digimon, Mario Bros, Godzilla, The Legend of Zelda, etc. The way I see it, these files utilize all their canon in order to reach reasonable conclusions. In this case, we can use feats from all facets in order to help rate their characters. I do not find this to be an issue, matter of fact I agree with this method.

I however, disagree with how we treat consistency. If we are willing to utilize all sources to support each other, we should be willing to evaluate these sources equally. If the game shows the technique being one way, but the other sources contradict this, then this should be considered as those other sources are apart of the composite.

So for a Composite, I believe that all sources should more or less be evaluated with near equality. While there may be levels of canon, the other canon should be used to both support or go against another source in order to determine whether our ratings are correct.

In Agreement: 26 (Hykuu, Matt, Wright, Prince, Shadow, Apies, Sigurd, Dargoo, 00potato, Roach, DMB, Infinite, Schnee, Zach, Paul, Effi, Cinos, Upgrade, Eliz, Sera, AKM, Anon, Rot, User, PaChi, Orc)

In Disagreement:13 (Kukui, Overlord, Divine, Je, Most, C2, Goji, Glass, Yobo, Starter, Tri, M3X, Drite)

Neutral: 5 (Woki, Walker, SD, Milly, Jvando)

 

[Hykuu]

I agree with the idea here, but I actually never noticed this being a problem with any of the pages, if it is, then I agree it is an issue.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Since this was made already, might as well tackle into it. I still very much disagree with making supporting canons equally evaluated on the same level as primary ones. This is what I said exactly about this earlier to Dragon:

"Except, thats exactly how supporting canons work Dragon and this is always how they have been treated here for any verse.

Supporting canon is only accepted if it doesnt contradict the primary canon. If it does contradict it, we dont accept it. Simple as that. It's literally impossible to use supporting canons to deny primary canon feats as we never accept them if they contradict the primary canon in the first place. Case by case basis. We only accept what doesnt goes against."

My 2nd comment on this:

"Except, its not out of convenience. At all Dragon. We ignore it because its simply less canon than what the primary canon dictates it to be. That is how supporting canons in general are treated here, so unless you want to make a thread to argue against this standard, that is what we are going with here. Again, we only accept what isnt contradicted by the higher up canons. It doesnt matter if "every single source" does something different because at the end of the day, it is still less canon and doesn't take priority. This is why we accept and reject feats on case by case basisis when it comes to using supporting canons."

I still stand by what I said. We only consider supporting canons when they have material that doesn't contradict the primary canons. If they do contradict them, then we dont accept them and the reason is self-explanatory. To allow supporting canons contradicting material to be equally evaluated as material that takes priority over them is to get rid of canonicity levels all together and just use anything period. Something that I strongly oppose here.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Your first argument is a blatant appeal to tradition fallacy when I have made a thread to debate that tradition. I addressed your second argument in my post.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So from what I'm gathering are you basically saying to not use an interpretation of a power from a different source if the main source treats it differently? Like how legends continuity of star wars treats lasers vs how disney(canon) continuity treats it?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Giver

Is this to me or Kukui?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Following!.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I agree with the op. It makes more sense to use the most consistent showing. It is a composite version after all, no reason why "primary" canon or lack thereof should matter.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Your first argument is a blatant appeal to tradition fallacy when I have made a thread to debate that tradition.

Considering I explained the reason why this tradition is still in effect, and didnt just say "But we've always done this", no its not an appeal to tradition fallacy.

>I addressed your second argument in my post.

And I also re-addressed it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The issue is that you aren't taking to account composites.

 

[Overlord775]

I however, disagree with how we treat consistency. If we are willing to utilize all sources to support each other, we should be willing to evaluate these sources equally. If the game shows the technique being one way, but the other sources contradict this, then this should be considered as those other sources are apart of the composite.

So for a Composite, I believe that all sources should more or less be evaluated with near equality. While there may be levels of canon, the other canon should be used to both support or go against another source in order to determine whether our ratings are correct.

No, if something coming from secondary stuff shouldn't outrule the primary canon, that would be like a state law overuling an USA law.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Canonicity and legit real life laws are not comparable.

 

[Wokistan]

I think its pretty clear that in some verses some things matter more than others, but I don't know pokemon so idk if there's a reason to say the games are conclusively more canon than the anime or whatever.

 

[Overlord775]

Because Pokemon is a game serie

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Dragon.

 

[Wokistan]

State laws coming into conflict with federal laws is a rather nebulous territory irl sometimes so that might not be the best comparison. For example, weed's still illegal under federal law, but you're not gonna run into trouble doing it in Colorado so long as you aren't absusing it.

It's also an anime series though

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The issue is that you aren't taking to account composites.

My argument takes this into account.

If a verse is primarily a game verse like Pokemon or Mario, then lower canons shouldnt dictate what the higher one says as it takes priority. The only way lower canons can have a say in what dictates something, even from the primary canon, is if you take away canonicity status in general and make everything just one big clustered canon regardless of what contradicts what. And that is extremely bad.

 

[Wokistan]

Could just separate anime and game stuff, like goku

 

[The_Wright_Way]

My argument takes this into account.

If a verse is primarily a game verse like Pokemon or Mario, then lower canons shouldnt dictate what the higher one says as it takes priority. The only way lower canons can have a say in what dictates something, even from the primary canon, is if you take away canonicity status in general and make everything just one big clustered canon regardless of what contradicts what. And that is extremely bad.

We're not just taking everything into account in a big clustered ball though. We're taking the most consistent showing of how things work. The way that is used the most by the most forms of media.

 

[Drite77]

Could just separate anime and game stuff, like goku

Thing is, even those have different things. There is alot of Pokemon animes that contradict each other, same for anime and manga

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I agree with Dragon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Just a heads up, I don't have the time to address everything right now, so I will be listening in on the arguments and keeping track of who agrees or disagrees.

 

[Overlord775]

State laws coming into conflict with federal laws is a rather nebulous territory irl sometimes so that might not be the best comparison. For example, weed's still illegal under federal law, but you're not gonna run into trouble doing it in Colorado so long as you aren't absusing it.
It's also an anime series though

Goddam 'muricans

also, yes pokemon has an anime, but it's not the main thng of the verse.

Pokemon is centered on the games, with every other media being an adaptation of them

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We're not just taking everything into account in a big clustered ball though. We're taking the most consistent showing of how things work. The way that is used the most by the most forms of media.

Which you can't do unless you say "screw you" to what takes priority. And that is what I disagree with.

 

[Drite77]

I mean, if we separate the profiles in 3, we still could later composite them?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Btw, I also disagree with separating the pokemon pages into 3 when its explicitly proven the canons exist and intersect amongst another.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with Dragonmaster.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Because Pokemon is a game serie

Pokemon has become a multi-media series. The card game is easiliy just as important as the video game and the anime has always been up there. Hell, merchandise is probably more important then all three combined.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, 4 people kudos'd my first reply so that should be taken as them disagreeing with this too.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I get what Dragon is saying but I agree more with Kukui.

I also feel like this will open a kind floodgate. I always felt the standard of "Does it or does it not contradict the primary canon" was more to give the profiles a sense of direction and keep them under contorl. Suddenly, that's gone and we have enter nebulous territory of how to evaluate everything that goes into the profile.

I'm just afraid that things will go a little sideways should that change and the accuracy of the composites themselves will dip.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Pokémon is kind of far too composite for my tastes.

I obviously don't agree with making everything a composite.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I agree with the OP

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

btdubs I also agree with Dragon.

secretly I want to to uncomposite it all and have separate profiles for each source

 

[Overlord775]

Pokemon has become a multi-media series. The card game is easiliy just as important as the video game and the anime has always been up there. Hell, merchandise is probably more important then all three combined.

Except, you know, those media aren't actually no new stuff and are just adaptaions of the games.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>When this gets more to be about Pokemon than the general wikia's standard on supporting cano

If a verse's canoncity can be proven to have its canon be composited, then it should be composited. Why should it have to suffer just because other canons from other verses work differently? A fictional verse is most definitely not a "one size fits all" standard when it comes to canonicity.

In fact, what would even be considered canon for a verse anymore if this was to be passed? It would be more about whats shown more instead of whats prioritized more at that point.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Except, you know, those media aren't actually no new stuff and are just adaptaions of the games.

The card game has never been an adaptation, always it's own entity. The anime has always been a loose adaptation, with mostly surface level similarities.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

My issue is that how can we accept original feats from the anime or manga or side games yet, also dismiss there showings? Back to Seismic Toss as it started this debate. In the games it shows the Pokemon being taken out of the planet and being crashed back down. But in the anime and manga who we allow original feats for show it as nothing of the sort, yet we disregard it. I find that to be a bad thing.

For me, it feels like we are picking and choosing what to use out of mere convenience instead of evaluating everything together and coming up with a solution. If it's good, we use it, but if it's bad we won't. Instead of equally evaluating the good and the bad, we simply look at the good. It simply seems as though were are just looking away from any contradictory evidence.

 

[Overlord775]

We use the feats because they don't contract the games, otherwise we wouldn't

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It isnt that we're picking and choosing what to use out of whats more convenient. We select material from other supporting canons based on what is logical and reasonable to select.

We dont just dismiss alternate showings on a whim, we only dismiss them when they contradict material that takes priority over them. And as for accepting feats from supporting canons, we only allow them if they fit with the primary canon and do not contradict it. After all, if it doesnt contradict the primary canon, then we have 0 reason not to accept it.

The issue isnt the ccanons thesmelves, but whats in the material of the canons. Thats precisely why we evaluate the feats of other canons on strict case by case basis's.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

When dealing with a Composite file, I believe all feats, both good and bad should be evaluated. If you are willing to take original feats from a source despite those feats not existing in, another media, then you should also accept anything that goes against feats. We shouldn't put the game on such a high pedestal and should consider that the other Pokemon outlets can be used to support or debunk notions from the games themselves.