Ishida's Antithesis ignores conventional durability? Why?

[C2_of_Omegon]

This point got raised in versus thread (Thread:546791#70) by Prof. Kukui but I decided to bring it here after seeing that Ishida's Antithesis is stated to ignore durability.

Basically, Ishida has only 1 instance of using his Antithesis, IIRC, and it is against someone who he's basically in the same tier in. What does that mean? Well, if both Jugram and Ishida have basically the same level of durability, whatever hurts one can hurt the other. So, once Ishida reverses the damage he took back onto Jugram, it makes sense that it could and would hurt Sternritter B.

My point is: where is the proof that Antithesis ignores durability? Ishida's only feat with (that I know of) is using it on person who is susceptible to same level of injury/damage as he is.

But what if Antithesis is used on someone with higher durability than 6-B? What then? What if the opponent has 6-A (Continent level) durability? Does the damage still go through? Shouldn't the person just be able to tank it? Why not? What am I missing?

I'm sorry if any of this confused anyone.

 

[LordAizenSama]

i'm sorry but I'm not sure what's so confusing about it?

It just transfers the current states of two things. So Hashbrown took Uryu's wounds and Uryu received his healthy state

 

[NotEvenHuman]

When Ishida reverses the damage he took, he's not taking the strenght of the attacks that damaged him and sending it back, he's transfering the damage on his body to the enemy. So if a 9-C character punched him and he reversed the damage, the 9-C character wouldn't take any damage, because his punch didn't hurt Ishida.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'm basically asking of why does Ishida's Antithesis ignore conventional durability. Where's the proof?

I'm trying to reconcile what's on Ishida's profile with the point that Kukui brought up and see which holds more water.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Thank you, that's what I needed to know.

I kind of got what you were going for but after dealing with that thread I linked to, my head started to spin.

 

[LordAizenSama]

┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬» I'm not sure what more proof you need, the answer is right there in the profile description, it's a form of causality manipulation similiar to Orihime

Kukui seems a bit confused about it. Heres the exact scan. Uryu can designate two targets and reverse the state of the two.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

Whoa whoa whoa...I jave a question...Say It was Uryu vs Beerus and Beerus blasted a hole in his chest, if Uryuu is still concious, he should be able to reflect the Damage regardless of his Opponents Durability. That's not a NLF, that's literally what his ability does. If Yhwach used Almight to Cut Uryu in half, he can reverse it on Yhwach and he'd be cut in half. Tiers don't matter.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Correct @Barry, that's why Hashbrown was so worried and thought Uryu could be the only one to counter Yhwach.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im sorry but I am still somewhat confused about this, and forgive me for being difficult. But I still dont see how this wouldnt be an NLF.

Regarding the beerus example, first off, Beerus is a 3-A which is infinitely higher than a 6-B. For beerus to release such a tiny miniscule amount of AP onto Uryu to make sure he doesnt get insta vaporized, even if Uryu were to be able to reverse it back onto Beerus, how would Beerus even get remotely harmed durability or not? He would be attacking Uryu with a 6-B or lower attack to make sure Uryu wouldnt be killed (in this scenerio anyway). Uryu being able to reverse it doesnt change the fact that Beerus has immensily higher durability than the amount of damage he dealt Uryu. Just because the Antithesis can reverse damage doesnt mean it can reverse as much damage as the user wants. I was under the impression that it reverses the amount of damage given to the user or an object and if thats correct, then how would it kill someone who has higher to much higher power and durability than the damage its reversing?

In addition, for this example anyway, characters in DB who are infinitely fodder than Beerus have survived getting a hole blasted into theim. Piccolo survived getting holes blasted into him by Frieza and Cell. Trunks didnt get insta killed getting a hole blasted into him by Cell. Gohan survived getting holes blasted into him by Taogama. Heck Goku wasnt insta killed when Piccolo shot a special beam cannon into him and Raditz. And all of these attacks used much greater AP than what Uryu could take and reverse back as damage. And even in Bleach this has happened. A far weaker version of Ichigo could take a Cero blasting a hole into him by both Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. If Uryu was to ever reverse the damage done to him back to Beerus what would make anyone think Beerus would get killed?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Kukui

As I understand it, Ishida's ability isn't just reflecting damage, he's reflecting the result of the damage. It's basically a form of casuality manipulation and thus not bound to the standards of conventional durabilty. That is what's coming into play. His ability just ignores durability outright.

However, it's not a NLF because he still has to meet certain requirements. He can still only reverse things between targest that have interacted with each other and if he is one of the targets, he still has to survive to use Antithesis. A casual attack from someone like Beerus would straight kill Ishida and not given him any time to activate Antithesis.

However, I'll be back to talk/post more around 6:30 Standard/Eastern time after work.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

What C2 said. Ishida has to survive the attack to reverse the damage.

 

[LordAizenSama]

>He can still only reverse things between targest that have interacted with each other.

I'm not sure why you think this, Uryu clearly states he can designate two targets, and then says "I can reverse anything that has happened", not "Anything that has happened between the two"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Didn't he only reverse something between him and Jugram? Have we ever seen him just choose 2 objects and reverse the actions? If he could really do that he wouldnt have let Jugram hurt him he could've just blasted a buliding or something and then kill him that way.

PS- I get it now kinda, it's more portrayed as causality hax.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yes, but he literally states he can designate two objects and reverse whatever between them.

As for why he didn't do that against Haschwalth, either the proper opportunity didn't reveal itself or PIS. There wasn't much time to go into detail about it thanks to WSJ

 

[LordAizenSama]

And after the first use of Antithesis he quickly found out it was a bad matchup for the balance. So there was no incentive to try use it again. The first time he was simultaneously healinh himself and injuring Hashbrown, so that's probably why.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

ahhh I see

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Okay, I'm back from work.

@LordAizenSama

The reason I've stated that bit about the interaction is because of literally how we have it on his profile right now:

Antithesis (Õ«îÕà¿ÕÅìþ½ï(ÒéóÒâ│ÒâüÒéÁÒâ╝ÒéÀÒé╣), Anchis─üshisu; Japanese for "Perfect Anti-Setup"): Uryü can designate any two targets and completely reverse anything that has already occurred between the two of them. For example, if Uryü were to be greatly injured while fighting an opponent, he could reverse what occurred between himself and his enemy, simultaneously healing himself while grievously wounding his opponent.

Bleach wiki also has this same exact explanation word for word and I wouldn't be surprised if it was taken straight from there.

Even before I read our description of Antithesis, I came to two conclusions on how you can comperehend it.

1). Ishida can reverse any interaction between his two targets. Read it like that and the ability is powerful but sounds reasonable with some clear limits.

2). Ishida can pick any two targets and reverse anything he wants. To me that sounded a lot closer to a NLF and then basically closes Ishida off to a lot a battles as all he has to do is utterly destroy a rock, use Antithesis and reverse the damage on his opponent and BOOM, Ishida wins (in most circumstances).

With that kind of choice, I sided with caution especially after I saw the above explantion on Ishida's profile. I was sure that had it been wrong it would've been changed considering Bleach's popularity (even if it has diminshed over time).

We also have a lot of other statements in Bleach that lead to NLF. Like another from Yhwach:

Power Intuition: Any power of which he "knows" will become his ally.

• Reactionary Power Immunity: That power will not only be unable to defeat him, but become unable to harm him in any way.

I'm really trying to establish exactly where do we draw the line with these.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Bump.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

Hax is hax.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there anything left to discuss here, or can this thread be closed?

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't think so, since it's simply swapping the statuses of the targeted individuals.