Infinity Ultron (MCU) vs Son Goku (DBS)

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Where was this accepted?

Zamasu was gonna get large size type 9 for being above baseline existence but they changed type 9's definition from ""characters larger than a space time" to "characters the size of or larger than several space times" or something along those lines? So zamasu being above baseline existence is true, so it should affect his tier too.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yes he is. He is bigger than a standard space time continuum literally, this is already accepted. Why wouldn't this make his tier higher?

He is not, his size is a space-time, he can become higher as he would fuse with more timelines, but he died before it, but nothing in his AP shows him as more than a baseline low 2-C

 

[ThanatosX]

Zamasu was gonna get large size type 9 for being above baseline existence but they changed type 9's definition from ""characters larger than a space time" to "characters the size of or larger than several space times" or something along those lines? So zamasu being above baseline existence is true, so it should affect his tier too.

Which is why I think Infinite Zamasu should get a "2-C over time" key in his AP. But as it is right now, only him being fused with a single Universe is accepted, which makes him baseline in the scaling chain.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Which is why I think Infinite Zamasu should get a "2-C over time" key in his AP. But as it is right now, only him being fused with a single Universe is accepted, which makes him baseline in the scaling chain.

Mate. Zamasu had already fused with part of the present timeline, he is above baseline existence, this is already accepted, this was his size before he disappeared. So his AP is also higher.
Whatever we're derailing.

 

[ThanatosX]

Mate. Zamasu had already fused with part of the present timeline, he is above baseline existence, this is already accepted, this was his size before he disappeared. So his AP is also higher.
Whatever we're derailing.

It's not derailing considering that it's important to Goku's AP.
Can you link me the CRT in which it was accepted?

 

[Vietthai96]

Which is why I think Infinite Zamasu should get a "2-C over time" key in his AP. But as it is right now, only him being fused with a single Universe is accepted, which makes him baseline in the scaling chain.

actually he have a line before which is: Low 2-C would eventually become 2-C, but got nuked

 

[ThanatosX]

actually he have a line before which is: Low 2-C would eventually become 2-C, but got nuked

Weird, considering that it was said that he was going to expand to other timelines. At least there should be a "possibly 2-C over time" or something like that.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's not derailing considering that it's important to Goku's AP.
Can you link me the CRT in which it was accepted?

Okay, you can see on the profile his range is universe+ likely low multiversal. This means it's already accepted that he's above baseline. Now for the type 9 thing I talked about, that was on the all purpose request thread not a CRT but unfortunately I don't remember the page just trust me bro.

 

[AwkguyDB]

yeah Zamasu is technically above Baseline Low 2-C not sure why people even hold him to baseline. As was stated above the scaling is this

"Baseline < zamasu < Sign 1 goku < SSB Goku TOP < SSB Goku broly saga, higher with kaioken."

Goku should be about the strength of Sign 2 here at least maybe even higher

 

[ThanatosX]

Okay, you can see on the profile his range is universe+ likely low multiversal. This means it's already accepted that he's above baseline. Now for the type 9 thing I talked about, that was on the all purpose request thread not a CRT but unfortunately I don't remember the page just trust me bro.

Range is separate from AP. Low multiversal range It means that he was going to affect the other timelines too, not that he is above baseline. If that would affect AP, then he should be "eventually 2-C" like it was before.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Okay, you can see on the profile his range is universe+ likely low multiversal. This means it's already accepted that he's above baseline. Now for the type 9 thing I talked about, that was on the all purpose request thread not a CRT but unfortunately I don't remember the page just trust me bro.

His range is useless in terms of AP, as he become Low 2-C and merged with a finite part of other timeline, aka just a bit of the present timeline, but not full, aka just Low 2-C, as doesnt matter how much finite 3-D AP will be stacked, it doesnt change his Low 2-C

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

strong punches and kicks

Tbf, this is hax for Goku's standards

Since its worked so well for him so far in the series xD

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Range is separate from AP. Low multiversal range It means that he was going to affect the other timelines too, not that he is above baseline. If that would affect AP, then he should be "eventually 2-C" like it was before.

No, his AP justification was removed all together, he gets the rating for low multiversal as he was affecting the present timeline too, which makes him higher into low 2-C.

His range is useless in terms of AP, as he become Low 2-C and merged with a finite part of other timeline, aka just a bit of the present timeline, but not full, aka just Low 2-C, as doesnt matter how much finite 3-D AP will be stacked, it doesnt change his Low 2-C

Zamasu isn't fusing with the material universe.

 

[Bernkastelll]

No, his AP justification was removed all together, he gets the rating for low multiversal as he was affecting the present timeline too, which makes him higher into low 2-C.

Zamasu isn't fusing with the material universe.

He didnt finished to fuse with present timeline, he died before it, hence Low 2-C instead of 2-C

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

He didnt finished to fuse with present timeline, he died before it, hence Low 2-C instead of 2-C

Bruh what? He fused with future universe 7 completely and started affecting present universe 7. You got things all mixed up.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Bruh what? He fused with future universe 7 completely and started affecting present universe 7. You got things all mixed up.

Yeah, he fused with the universe completely, thats the low 2-C scaling, and he started to fuse with the present one, but died before it, and he only affected a infinitesimal part of the present U7, which was 3-D and not 4-D like u7 as a whole

 

[Vietthai96]

Well according to the logic of being Low 2-C, because the anime only show him merged with universe 7 and leaked to present U7, we can't assume that he also merged with other universes in the Trunks timeline. That is what i know from the threat that revision his rating, so be baseline, even if it is above baseline, it is a really small gap

 

[ManatheMagician]

Can someone pls count my vote?

 

[Ganasto]

Can Goku one shot baselines in SSB? If Kefla could one-shot UIO2 Goku and SSB Goku > Kefla, he should be able to one shot Ultron so I'm voting for Goku

 

[Bernkastelll]

Is this UIO2? UIO1?

 

[ManatheMagician]

Blue Broly saga, so Goku has the slight ap advantage here.


Again, knowing that ultron rarely starts with hax, cannot sense Goku is anywhere above a normal human in strength and will do casual stuff like collapsing the mountain he is on or punch rather than using his haxes (again, before trying to debate me on this, take note of how long it takes him to take the guardians of the multiverse seriously by using the time stone or destroying the galaxy and how the fight with Uatu started), i think it is quite clear this is a pretty simple win for the saiyan warrior, who will literally just punch or glare (also should be able to sense evil intent in ultron or the stone's power.)

 

[AwkguyDB]

Is this UIO2? UIO1?

This is Broly Movie SSJB now so Post UIO2 SSJB

 

[Bernkastelll]

This is Broly Movie SSJB now so Post UIO2 SSJB

Ah, aight, ig the OP changed it then

 

[AwkguyDB]

Yeah so honestly I give it to Goku due solely to the fact that Ultron will go for actual combat first which Goku hilariously outclasses him in, both skillwise and APwise.

 

[Tyranno223]

Ultron usually starts with hand to hand kr blasts, both of which see him lose hard to Goku.

He has win cons via reality punches, or by using the infinity stone's hax, but thise aren't his go to, and of the rare hax he regularly uses, Goku resists all but one.

Goku win via ap + skill advantage and relevant hax resistance.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Goku resists all but one.
e and relevant hax resistance.

this part is not true at all

 

[Peter1129]

Broly Saga SSB Goku =/= Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku. Why are they even considered the same key? Broly Saga is the equivalent of Post-3rd UIS/Post-UI Goku who is leagues stronger than Post-2nd UIS Goku as Post-UIS Goku is over 50x stronger than Pre-UIS Goku via scaling.

You should probably change it to Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku instead as that’s the Goku who has a scaling above baseline Low 2-C as a SSB.

 

[Tyranno223]

this part is not true at all

"Relevant", aka the ones he uses regularly. Ultron could mind hax Goku to commit selfcide, but he won't ever start with that in character.

 

[Bernkastelll]

"Relevant", aka the ones he uses regularly. Ultron could mind hax Goku to commit selfcide, but he won't ever start with that in character.

I mean, he does use Transmutation and Reality Warping in a 4-D scale against The Watcher, and if we take the haxes that he can use but he didnt, there has a lot of abilities that Goku doesnt resist, such as Death Hax, Soul sealing, Life Hax, deconstruction, matter manipulation etc, Goku also wouldnt have range to scape from Ultron BFR, and Ultron did used BFR in character, at least against a single person such as The Watcher, he only didnt used these hax when he was faced by a lot of people at once, such as the party thor team, that had strange, gamora, captain carter (or whatever is her name), black widow, killmonger etc

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Broly Saga SSB Goku =/= Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku. Why are they even considered the same key? Broly Saga is the equivalent of Post-3rd UIS/Post-UI Goku who is leagues stronger than Post-2nd UIS Goku as Post-UIS Goku is over 50x stronger than Pre-UIS Goku via scaling.

You should probably change it to Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku instead as that’s the Goku who has a scaling above baseline Low 2-C as a SSB.

SSB Goku in the broly saga is literally stronger than Post sign 2 SSB Goku.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah but he’s so much stronger that it’s ridiculous to even compare them. Which is why I’m asking why are they even considered the same key? The difference in their AP is huge.

Like after the first UIS limit break Goku’s SSG surpassed his SSB. After the second one his SSB surpassed his First UIS. And Broly Saga is after he received a third limit break which should make him far stronger than his Post-2nd UIS self to the point where his SSG has very likely surpassed his previous SSB form again. They shouldn’t even be considered the same key anymore due to the new massive jump in power.

If Broly Saga SSB Goku is used he would have the AP to one shot Ultron. Post-2nd UIS Goku would be better as he has a scaling above baseline just like Ultron and can still amp himself via Kaioken.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yeah but he’s so much stronger that it’s ridiculous to even compare them. Which is why I’m asking why are they even considered the same key? The difference in their AP is huge.

Like after the first UIS limit break Goku’s SSG surpassed his SSB. After the second one his SSB surpassed his First UIS. And Broly Saga is after he received a third limit break which should make him far stronger than his Post-2nd UIS self to the point where his SSG has very likely surpassed his previous SSB form again. They shouldn’t even be considered the same key anymore due to the new massive jump in power.

If Broly Saga SSB Goku is used he would have the AP to one shot Ultron. Post-2nd UIS Goku would be better as he has a scaling above baseline just like Ultron and can still amp himself via Kaioken.

That's just an assuption based off his previous power boosts. The actual scaling is just SSB Goku in broly movie being stronger by an unknown amount than he was before. But kaioken does actually one shot.

 

[Peter1129]

We literally see Broly Saga/Post-3rd limit break SS1 Goku match initial Ikari Broly who was overpowering Broly Saga/Post-Limit Break SSG Vegeta blow for blow. This very same Vegeta never received a new limit break boost like Goku did so his overall power should be slightly stronger or about the same as it was during the ToP which is shown to be equal to Post-2nd limit break Goku. And it’s shown that Ikari Broly had to adapt and become even stronger and more massive once Broly Saga Goku decided to go SSG and restrain him. So

Post-3rd Limit Break SSG Goku >>> Post-3rd Limit Break SS1 Goku >= Post-Limit Break SSG Vegeta = Post-2nd Limit Break SSG Goku

The gap between the two different Limit Break Goku is massive. They really shouldn’t be considered even remotely comparable.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

We literally see Broly Saga/Post-3rd limit break SS1 Goku match initial Ikari Broly who was overpowering Broly Saga/Post-Limit Break SSG Vegeta blow for blow. This very same Vegeta never received a new limit break boost like Goku did so his overall power should be slightly stronger or about the same as it was during the ToP which is shown to be equal to Post-2nd limit break Goku. And it’s shown that Ikari Broly had to adapt and become even stronger and more massive once Broly Saga Goku decided to go SSG and restrain him. So

Post-3rd Limit Break SSG Goku >>> Post-3rd Limit Break SS1 Goku >= Post-Limit Break SSG Vegeta = Post-2nd Limit Break SSG Goku

The gap between the two different Limit Break Goku is massive. They really shouldn’t be considered even remotely comparable.

Why tf are tou downaying vegeta, we literally see vegeta equal to post sign 2 SSB Goku and equal to his kk20 in ssbe. We literally see them fighting equally with each other in the broly movie.
And SSG Goku also got washed by broly too, you're scaling doesn't work, especially when you remember that to do gogeta, both goku and vegeta have to be equal but they didn't need to adjust their powers when they fuse.

 

[Peter1129]

Like I said Post-SSBE Limit Break Vegeta = Post-2nd UIS Limit Break Goku. But Post-3rd UIS Limit Break Goku =/= Post-2nd UIS Limit Break Goku. In fact Post-3rd UIS Limit Break Goku >>> Post-2nd UIS Limit Break Goku.

So what because of a short sparring where they could possibly be holding back and a fusion mechanic from decades ago we just ignore SS1 Goku trading blows equally with the Ikari Broly that was outright no selling attacks from and overpowering SSG Vegeta?

And we also ignore Ikari Broly outright growing bigger and stronger to defeat SSG Goku when he didn’t need to do so against SSG Vegeta.

As well as that one statement for the Broly movie from the director where Goku was said to be approaching the lvl of a god while Vegeta was desperately trying to catch up to him. Which implies Vegeta at the time of the Broly movie is far weaker than Goku.

But whatever I really don’t feel like making a fuss on this thing again.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Like I said Post-SSBE Limit Break Vegeta = Post-2nd UIS Limit Break Goku. But Post-3rd UIS Limit Break Goku =/= Post-2nd UIS Limit Break Goku. In fact Post-3rd UIS Limit Break Goku >>> Post-2nd UIS Limit Break Goku.

So what because of a short sparring where they could possibly be holding back and a fusion mechanic from decades ago we just ignore SS1 Goku trading blows equally with the Ikari Broly that was outright no selling attacks from and overpowering SSG Vegeta?

And we also ignore Ikari Broly outright growing bigger and stronger to defeat SSG Goku when he didn’t need to do so against SSG Vegeta.

As well as that one statement for the Broly movie from the director where Goku was said to be approaching the lvl of a god while Vegeta was desperately trying to catch up to him. Which implies Vegeta at the time of the Broly movie is far weaker than Goku.

But whatever I really don’t feel like making a fuss on this thing again.

Yeah sign 3 goku is much stronger than sign 2 but post sign 3 goku has no scaling at all unlike post sign 2 goku so quit making assumptions that he is that much stronger using weak logic that doesn't consistently apply, at best he'd be vaguely stronger than before plus the training he did between the end of TOP and broly.
Short sparring yeah okay bro they're clearly training and actually putting in effort.
Yeah that fusion mechanic is part of the canon, so you're just gonna ignore that because it contradicts your argument?
Yeah you're trying to scale base goku to = ikari broly and > ssg vegeta, and at the same time SSJ Goku = Ikari broly and > SSG vegeta, but when we look at the actual show and put the bullshit aside, we see shit like this.

So yeah that's just PIS that goku is fighting broly without transforming or in SSJ when he needs SSB to just simply match him.
Broly wasn't getting bigger and stronger, he was only powering up at the command of his father to fight goku instead of calming down and listening to him.
That doesn't mean anything Goku overall is stronger than vegeta sith all his ultra instinct stuff but their base forms are nigh equal.

 

[Peter1129]

Bruh did you forget Broly's entire shtick is his reactive power level is really good? Base Broly literally went from being comparable to Base Vegeta to being stronger than SS1 Vegeta after a short battle. And wow so on screen feats and scalings are now assumptions.

Ikari Broly stomping SSG Goku and later on matching SSB Goku literally comes after SS1 Goku starts fighting equally with a weaker Ikari Broly who was no selling attacks from SSG Vegeta. Once his reactive power level kicked in again he managed to break out of SSG Goku’s paralysis and started to match him which lead up to the events of him trashing SSG Goku after powering up even more. Basically

SSB Goku >= Ikari Broly (Final) > SSG Goku = Ikari Broly (Post-Paralysis) > SS1 Goku = Ikari Broly (Initial) > SSG Vegeta > Base Broly (Final) > SS1 Vegeta > Base Vegeta = Base Broly (Initial)

Also what do you mean Broly was powering up due to his father's command? Paragus literally didn't say a single thing when Broly powered up to break out of SSG Goku's paralysis. Your whole fusion argument also holds no credibility once you realize in this very movie even if we ignore the SS1 Goku stuff it was shown that SSG Goku still required Ikari Broly to power up even further in order to defeat him when he didn't need to so against SSG Vegeta. This shows that no matter what SSG Goku is at least stronger than SSG Vegeta. So the whole argument about Goku not powering down during fusion and therefore meaning Vegeta is equal to Goku makes no sense.

And honestly you really could argue even Base Goku is stronger than SSG Vegeta based on what we've seen in this movie but that's another rabbit hole that I do not want to step into. Also like I said there's also the director statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up to Goku who was near the lvl of the gods which backs up what is shown in the movie about Goku being massively stronger than Vegeta.

But yeah I only came here to say the Goku used should be changed to Post-2nd UIS Goku as it makes more sense for this match with the scaling. I'm not gonna make a whole CRT just to change this stuff. And this will probably be the last time I post here as I only wanted to clear up the Broly Saga/Post-3rd UiS Goku not being the same as Post-2nd UIS Goku. Really don't want to get into another one of these long arguments when I still have work to do.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Bruh did you forget Broly's entire shtick is his reactive power level is really good? Base Broly literally went from being comparable to Base Vegeta to being stronger than SS1 Vegeta after a short battle. And wow so on screen feats and scalings are now assumptions.

Ikari Broly stomping SSG Goku and later on matching SSB Goku literally comes after SS1 Goku starts fighting equally with a weaker Ikari Broly who was no selling attacks from SSG Vegeta. Once his reactive power level kicked in again he managed to break out of SSG Goku’s paralysis and started to match him which lead up to the events of him trashing SSG Goku after powering up even more. Basically

SSB Goku >= Ikari Broly (Final) > SSG Goku = Ikari Broly (Post-Paralysis) > SS1 Goku = Ikari Broly (Initial) > SSG Vegeta > Base Broly (Final) > SS1 Vegeta > Base Vegeta = Base Broly (Initial)

Also what do you mean Broly was powering up due to his father's command? Paragus literally didn't say a single thing when Broly powered up to break out of SSG Goku's paralysis. Your whole fusion argument also holds no credibility once you realize in this very movie even if we ignore the SS1 Goku stuff it was shown that SSG Goku still required Ikari Broly to power up even further in order to defeat him when he didn't need to so against SSG Vegeta. This shows that no matter what SSG Goku is at least stronger than SSG Vegeta. So the whole argument about Goku not powering down during fusion and therefore meaning Vegeta is equal to Goku makes no sense.

And honestly you really could argue even Base Goku is stronger than SSG Vegeta based on what we've seen in this movie but that's another rabbit hole that I do not want to step into. Also like I said there's also the director statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up to Goku who was near the lvl of the gods which backs up what is shown in the movie about Goku being massively stronger than Vegeta.

But yeah I only came here to say the Goku used should be changed to Post-2nd UIS Goku as it makes more sense for this match with the scaling. I'm not gonna make a whole CRT just to change this stuff. And this will probably be the last time I post here as I only wanted to clear up the Broly Saga/Post-3rd UiS Goku not being the same as Post-2nd UIS Goku. Really don't want to get into another one of these long arguments when I still have work to do.

Yeah but for some reason his reactive power level is only relevant when goku and vegeta transform but when they reach SSB suddenly broly stops gaining power and matches ssb goku? Broly's reaxtive power level is only relevant when you consider that Ikari is a 10x amp.
Yes they're assumptions, show me any scaling of post sign 3 goku to his previous states.
You're saying broly >>> SSG vegeta despite him landing one casual punch that didn't work and then actually exchanging hits and reacting to and blocking an enraged attack from broly with pretty much no damage. Broly's still much stronger but vegeta still did just as well as goku did in SSG and would've been beat up the same had he stayed longer fighting like goku.
Goku fighting broly equally in base like you claim then transforming into a SSJ and broly with literally no amps still keeping up is just PIS bullshit no more no less.
The part when broly powered up was when he was under paragus command to beat up goku and vegeta, so he didn't listen to goku and chose not to disobey his father. He simply got angry and powered up, he didn't get way way stronger.
You're argument is literally completely debunked by the fusion as they literally couldn't make gogeta if goku and vegeta weren't equals, and they were even portrayed as such in the movie, it doesn't matter what the director says if its wrong.