Immersion: Standardizing when do creating/destroying fictional places gives stats in the real world

[Eficiente]

Easily a serious and important matter to touch.

You may have seen it many times before, a character/power souce creates or destroys some place (a world, dimension with a starry sky, universe, etc.) in a dream, or a painting, or book, mirrors, someone's mind, etc. Or maybe speed feats are done there, or other types of feats, and then people here claim those feats to be applicable to what can happen in the real universe of the verse.

Why would those feats in places that aren't real matter at all? Different users with different levels of experience have different replies and reasons to give, but what makes everything legit to them may not be the same to make those feats legit to you, or for the nearest person you have to buy what we decide on doing as logical.

Much like how our Universe page gives standards on when a dimension can be said to be a universe, and how our Creation page says when Creation can scale to AP, our Immersion page should point out when some non-real, fictional place counts as having a genuine scaling creation or destruction of it scalable to reality.

I for instance don't believe how we accepted painting worlds not considered part of the real world/reality in Super Mario 64 to be real feats with dimensions with starry skies being created, or how the Wind Fish in Zelda created a universe in his dream. Those franchises nor any other franchise doesn't matter for this thread, only the reasons as to why those feats were accepted for them and what reasons can we as a wiki take as valid.

We have things like how:

• Real people/things could travel into those fictional places.
  • They could get killed, or simply modified a bit in those fictional places.
• People/things in those fictional places have their own lives and things going on when no one is watching.
• People/things in those fictional places can be moved into reality.
• People/things in those fictional places may have a history from before they were created.

But as said before, this may do it for some but not for others. The first 3 are things most fictional places have and shouldn't be notable at all, the 4° is just Subjective Reality, I don't find it notable even if the characters and things in those fictional places were to be the ones moving into reality on their own (Bronze Kneecap and Nega-Chin can do that, I don't see 2-C FOP in the future). The 5° one is weird, you yourself can dream a setting that, if drafted in paper, should have things in it have a past, but that doesn't mean they literally do with time as real as the time in the real world of a verse. So I don't think that or any of those points as mattering.

Now, if it's stated that a fictional place "is just as real" as reality/whatever then sure, that's something. For example the Soul Stone in Marvel has a multiverse in it that once had a real character in it asking something like "So this is one of those 'Die in the dream, you die in the real world'-type of situations?", and that made me think that the universes it has inside don't matter, but then this was also stated, saying that those universes are "as real and important" as real universes. What would be the point of stating that if they didn't know that some dream-like place isn't notable? Or if some universes inside a tiny stone weren't notable?

Let's see what we agree on.

 

[liluzivert]

As someone who is knowledgeable about Mario, the painting worlds are described to be "real, three dimensional places". The painting itself is nothing more than a portal.

For the record, I disagree with this. Unless places are stated to just not be real at all, then they should be assumed to be other universes/pocket realities. The fact is that most of the real world physics like space, momentum, gravity, and time work there. And just because it's based on something that's "not real" doesn't meant it can't be a different reality that people aren't aware of. But if you want to be super skeptical, I think a decent compromise would be keeping it as long as it's stated to either be real, or stated to be it's own universe/dimension/spacetime. Though I'd rather just not change anything here and leave it alone as is.

 

[Eficiente]

I said that any franchise doesn't matter for this thread to avoid having things like 1 giant page from a Mario guide posted for no reason, it doesn't matter any punctual context a verse may have, only what context and reasons are valid. You contradict what the Immertion page says and is, you can't say that it needs to be "stated to just not be real" when we all already go with them being conceptual and, well, fictional. Being fictional means not being real. And yet real-like things exist there like everything being 3-D, having space, momentum, gravity and time, what about it? Not change anything and leave it alone as is means having the power being 1 thing for 1 user and another thing for another user, with some easily giving stats based on feats going on in fiction and apparently some believing that places in dreams, minds, books, etc. aren't fictional but real, just because people can walk in there and little more.

 

[liluzivert]

Being fictional means not being real.

Well answer me this. Do you think we should downgrade all of the verses with a Reality-Fiction difference? Should we make the 4D things higher dimensional characters view as fiction become 2D because that's what it looks like to the people above? Do we also just kill off any other tier above Low 2-C, because we don't know if multiverses or higher dimensions exist? So they're "fictional" to us?

You see. What's real and what's not is just subjective to a character in fiction. So the idea that something isn't "real" just because it's based off a real world concept that isn't real to us doesn't apply here. What matters if they're described to be worlds/dimensions/universes, etc. If that's there then it should be assumed to be a real dimension unless something proves otherwise.

 

[Eficiente]

This is a staff thread also.

Well answer me this. Do you think we should downgrade all of the verses with a Reality-Fiction difference? Should we make the 4D things higher dimensional characters view as fiction become 2D because that's what it looks like to the people above? Do we also just kill off any other tier above Low 2-C, because we don't know if multiverses or higher dimensions exist? So they're "fictional" to us?

Most of it answers itself. I made no thread or comment to downgrade verses with a Reality-Fiction difference.
The structure of that question doesn't make sense, are the things real, fictional or a weird mix of both? Whatever's the case is the answer, you just need to think in the question better. We don't mess the tier for no reason, no. Idk and who knows what was the last question aiming at.

You see. What's real and what's not is just subjective to a character in fiction.

As is anything as fiction can do whatever it feels like creating. That's redundant to state.

So the idea that something isn't "real" just because it's based off a real world concept that isn't real to us doesn't apply here. What matters if they're described to be worlds/dimensions/universes, etc. If that's there then it should be assumed to be a real dimension unless something proves otherwise.

Not the case, that's just an unnecessary and completely radical jump in logic for no reason to back it up based on seeing it all in a black and white way. Non-real worlds/dimensions/universes can exist and be a thing that, if created or destroyed, wouldn't be the same as creating or destroying as much in reality. It's not the most logical thing to claim it all to be real.

You need to make your own thread if you want Immertion to take others into real places, that's not what we do and the page has been and is actually used to dismiss feats in fiction, just inconsistently so.

 

[liluzivert]

The structure of that question doesn't make sense, are the things real, fictional or a weird mix of both? Whatever's the case is the answer, you just need to think in the question better. We don't mess the tier for no reason, no. Idk and who knows what was the last question aiming at.

You're dodging the question. Something that isn't real would be something that doesn't actually exist at least to us. So basically every non-realistic place in fiction wouldn't be real at this point, and that also includes a multiverse, or higher levels of reality.

Not the case, that's just an unnecessary and completely radical jump in logic for no reason to back it up based on seeing it all in a black and white way. Non-real worlds/dimensions/universes can exist and be a thing that, if created or destroyed, wouldn't be the same as creating or destroying as much in reality. It's not the most logical thing to claim it all to be real.

This is why "non real worlds" doesn't work. When characters go into those places, the same physics as a regular universe applies. You are saying that separate worlds aren't real if they are based off of something that's fictional, but that doesn't really matter if it's a physical place you can travel to, move in, die in, etc. You see, if you went into a book, and you can move around within the pages, that could be Immersion. But if you went into a book and got sent to an entirely different world similar to a universe, then it's probably a real place. There's a clear difference between the two. One is a book, and one is a universe that you travel to via a book.

This would also contradict many things in fiction. For example, Yukio from Bleach helps Ichigo train by sending him into a pocket dimension via his handheld gaming system. It wouldn't actually make sense for Ichigo to get proper training if the place itself isn't actually a real space and just a video game. And thus destroying something akin to this would be the same as destroying a real pocket dimension. The only real difference is the method used to get there.

Being based on something that isn't "real" doesn't flat out mean the place itself isn't a real area. If something is an entire dimension you can go to, then you need to prove that the area itself doesn't have characteristics of a space-time, otherwise you're basically saying something with minimal evidence, with your only real counterpoint being "they got there by something that isn't real". And as we know, fiction doesn't care.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So you made this a staff thread despite having obvious intent to go after specific verses. Again.

So, going by our current standards: "Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc."

For Mario's case, Bowser's worlds were not only stated to be "created" (and not something to just cross), but they're not just made from "imaginary locations", or the paintings in what you're referring to. But we also see Bowser can create worlds within walls or random portals that clearly have no design depicted. So already that goes against the intended "you go into worlds within books, paintings, or fictional media".

So in any case, for this thread, I think using Super Mario 64 as a whole is just a bad example, and request for it to be removed from the op due to it not applying as such.

 

[Antvasima]

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What do you think about this? It seems to be a rather important topic.

 

[QuasiYuri]

While I agree that destroying a dream, mind world or some "fictional worlds" shouldn't grant tier (if we don't take reality equalization into account); stuff like painting or mirrors sometimes just are gateways to these worlds instead of the worlds themselves.

Narnia and Mario are the main stuff I can think of rn.

Besides, I don't think there's a true "universal" way they are treated and are more often cases by cases.
Idk much about Bleach, but going by liluzivert's example, the simulation world here would scale to your actual stats.
While in another manga like Witch Hunter, their simulation world was stated to make them unable to get stronger since it was just a simulation, and it's more of a mind thing to get you skilled.

For stuff like having what you imagine or dream comes back to life, it's Subjective Reality, which can grant you a tier.

 

[SamanPatou]

I didn't really get what the aim of the thread is, honestly, although I got the point.

Maybe we could create guidelines like we do for pocket realities and starry skies? I.e. before using anything that happens in a fictional place it should be proven that the same things can be translated into real life. Like, having universal feats for holding control over a fictional world, or creating it altogether doesn't necessarily mean being able to do the same with actual reality, or demonstrating a specific ability or power in said fictional place might no be possible in the real world. If said things don't apply to the real world, characters could still have keys and tabbers for "Within X place" and such.

 

[Eficiente]

You're dodging the question. Something that isn't real would be something that doesn't actually exist at least to us. So basically every non-realistic place in fiction wouldn't be real at this point, and that also includes a multiverse, or higher levels of reality.

Something fictional=/=something not realistic. Simple as that, you can't just say that a multiverse or higher levels of reality would be fictional because they're not realistic, they can exist and so can fictional places in a verse. Please stop with this, it has nothing to do with the thread.

This is why "non real worlds" doesn't work. When characters go into those places, the same physics as a regular universe applies. You are saying that separate worlds aren't real if they are based off of something that's fictional, but that doesn't really matter if it's a physical place you can travel to, move in, die in, etc. You see, if you went into a book, and you can move around within the pages, that could be Immersion. But if you went into a book and got sent to an entirely different world similar to a universe, then it's probably a real place. There's a clear difference between the two. One is a book, and one is a universe that you travel to via a book.

This would also contradict many things in fiction. For example, Yukio from Bleach helps Ichigo train by sending him into a pocket dimension via his handheld gaming system. It wouldn't actually make sense for Ichigo to get proper training if the place itself isn't actually a real space and just a video game. And thus destroying something akin to this would be the same as destroying a real pocket dimension. The only real difference is the method used to get there.

Being based on something that isn't "real" doesn't flat out mean the place itself isn't a real area. If something is an entire dimension you can go to, then you need to prove that the area itself doesn't have characteristics of a space-time, otherwise you're basically saying something with minimal evidence, with your only real counterpoint being "they got there by something that isn't real". And as we know, fiction doesn't care.

Not if they're based off of something that's fictional, if they are fictional. Immertion can send you to a world similar to a universe and still be Immersion.

If you already know it's a pocket dimension and the gaming system is only to send others into it then it's not fictional, they can be real dimensions/universes/whatever characters can go to via going into dreams, games, etc., but cases like it existing doesn't matter, that doesn't mean all cases are the same. Otherwise, as just 1 example, the place Death 13 takes others into should give it a tier, and that's just 1 of many wrong things that would come to be by that logic. Please think what I meant when I said that you saw it in a black and white way, in this case you can't just say that because a real dimension can be travelled to via a game in 1 verse then all fictional places are real.

So you made this a staff thread despite having obvious intent to go after specific verses. Again.

Knowing that some verses would be affected=/=having an obvious intent to go after specific verses. I made this thread because I don't believe the way the wiki treats this is accurate and that it will keep being that way if nothing is done. I aim this at the wiki itself, not specific verses, and clearly this had to be a staff thread given how significant it is and how easily diverted it could get. Idk what you mean by "again", what staff thread have I made that wasn't a significant matter? You would be more accurate to not think that bad of me when I do something.

So, going by our current standards: "Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc."

For Mario's case, Bowser's worlds were not only stated to be "created" (and not something to just cross), but they're not just made from "imaginary locations", or the paintings in what you're referring to. But we also see Bowser can create worlds within walls or random portals that clearly have no design depicted. So already that goes against the intended "you go into worlds within books, paintings, or fictional media".

So in any case, for this thread, I think using Super Mario 64 as a whole is just a bad example, and request for it to be removed from the op due to it not applying as such.

The Immertion page has an image of Mario jumping into a painting in Mario 64 and I do remember seeing those places said to be I said them to be, but I will remove that in any case.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I personally think the OP here is being too extreme tbh. Just because the character creates a realm described as "Their dream" or "Imagination becoming reality" doesn't mean "It's fake". Also, fiction within fiction isn't Tier 11 by default. As long as it literally becomes a physically existing body of space that people can interact with environments, then it is legit considered a body of space. While I can understand people having skepticism for things referred to as Dream Cosmologies, some verses legit have a bunch of lore statements about entire alternate realities are born each and every time someone goes to sleep.

Also, people describing pocket dimensions are taken out of context. People keep assuming they're just small worlds that shrink the people entering, that's not really what a pocket reality is. They are legit bodies of space larger than planet earth; the painting people use to travel or some character's mouth is simply that or a; a portal to an alternate dimension. We don't assume the house I'm entering is the size of the door entrance to said house. The realm is logically intended to mirror the scenery of the realm world meaning stars in the sky are legit stars in the sky and so on. And we already had a lengthy discussion regarding this that DontTalkDT wrote up his thoughts and bullet points on the matter. The actual location is it exists outside the boundaries of the universe and can simply only be traveled through dimensional travel and the like. Mirror realms, digital worlds, pocket realities, ect are often all considered physical bodies of spaces when created or even dream worlds or psychological worlds can reach that heights.

While, I will note DT also wrote policies for when it scales to physical stats; aka universal energy systems and what not. And Subjective Reality or Pocket Reality creation are not to be confused with Illusion creation or perception manipulation. Keep in mind that Perception Manipulation is normally something like it feels real to specific targets but people outside said realm do not see said illusion or just sees the target going insane if possible. Of course a simple hand wave and a starry sky background appears with no explanation is something that's likely either illusion creation or simple teleportation. However, if it's outright called an alternate dimension, the logical assumption is that it literally is a body of space. And I also do agree that there should be confirmation the character actually created it not just simply teleport to them, but confirmed created dimensions are logically assumed to be real body of spaces.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with DDM, liluzivert and DatOneWeeb for the reasons they stated. This is simply too extreme.

 

[Eficiente]

Yeah, I personally think the OP here is being too extreme tbh. Just because the character creates a realm described as "Their dream" or "Imagination becoming reality" doesn't mean "It's fake". Also, fiction within fiction isn't Tier 11 by default. As long as it literally becomes a physically existing body of space that people can interact with environments, then it is legit considered a body of space.

This to me seems clearly wrong going by statistics; if you grab every verse you know that has fiction within fiction then most of it is going to have it as Tier 11 from the point of view of reality, and most of the cases where that isn't the same would have well defiened reasons for and likely whole plots about it. From Sponge Bob to any series that travels into dreams ending said dreams is not going to give a tier based on the size of the dreams, same with books, going inside a TV, etc. Let alone would creating this dreams, books, etc. give a tier, which it would all be the case if by default fiction within fiction wasn't Tier 11. I personally believe that you say this due to how overused fiction within fiction is and how relaxed we are on giving tiers about it. Yes there're many, many cases where doing so is legit, but only due to their reasons for it and that being needed for it, it isn't standard for all verses to have the same, otherwise we may as well remove how Immersion takes others into fictional and conceptual places and write how the standard is from places where you can walk in to be real spaces, if not necessarily made by the user of Immertion.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Not sure about this one, what about verses like SAO, where all the feats and power come from an in-verse video game that doesn’t have any real effect on the physical world at all?

 

[Eficiente]

The Reality Equalization page takes care of it, it's an example there too. I believe it also has like, beings there aiming to move their minds into a body in the real world or stuff like that, so maybe there's even more to it than, say, a regular verse where the power to travel to every videogames that exists is a thing, and destroying the game means destroying the setting inside it.

 

[Eficiente]

Just because the character creates a realm described as "Their dream"

As you said that fiction within fiction isn't Tier 11 by default then this would be an different way of saying "A person can dream any day of their life, and so can another other human being, and the power to travel to their dreams exist, and their dreams are mostly Earth-like places with a sun it or stars, aka realms". If fiction within fiction isn't Tier 11 by default then the latter always gives a tier when dreaming that and stopping to dream it if people can walk in there via the power of Immertion.

When I say that some place is a dream and in a dream I mean what I said, not some portal or something sending into a place that's real and just so happen to be accessed via someone dreaming. We can't just redirect what verses do so that the latter is what they mean when something is a dream or in it to keep it all consistent with the verses that have high tiers based on it, that would be false. At the risk of being repetitive, the reasons verses have for legit fiction within fiction not being Tier 11 are what's needed, and otherwise fiction within fiction is Tier 11.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The problem is, most verses I'm aware of or that I have followed treat the same specific "Fiction within fictions" as actually having 3 spatial dimensions and thus cannot be Tier 11. Such as the case of a cartoon verse within a cartoon verse. This isn't even an example I follow, but Tinymon in Johnny Test is also another example, specific situation is that when they go inside said TV universe, said universe is just as 3-dimensional as Johnny Test's real world.

And yeah, SAO, Megaman Battle Network series, Digimon, ect are all perfect examples of digital world being comparable if not superior to their respective "Physical Worlds" via reality fiction debates. Also, Luna from MLP goes inside people's dreams all the time and fights foes who clearly are much stronger than Tier 11. Though as for the individual, they aren't quite creating a dream world in those cases. More or less the dream world if anything already exists and people simple travel to it when they fall asleep and no one actually created it. But that's now what I'm talking about, if someone actively creates a dream world, that dream world can still be used for AP. Though, I'm not saying ones done via chain reactions scale to AP, as it's not an AP feat for the sleeper but a feat for some natural force that births universes for every sleep.

Also, the real world example doesn't count because when people dream IRL, it's simply their own perception meaning they cannot logically die in their own dream unless they physically sleepwalked to their death IRL. Meaning their really is no physical world created.

 

[Eficiente]

The problem is, most verses I'm aware of or that I have followed treat the same specific "Fiction within fictions" as actually having 3 spatial dimensions and thus cannot be Tier 11. Such as the case of a cartoon verse within a cartoon verse. This isn't even an example I follow, but Tinymon in Johnny Test is also another example, specific situation is that when they go inside said TV universe, said universe is just as 3-dimensional as Johnny Test's real world.

That can be seen as perspective, from their point of view it may all be 3-D while that isn't the case, just like how going into realm inside a tiny thing may not have people notice they're smaller, or how going into a lower dimension or simply different dimension w/ weird rules may have someone keep their powers equialized to that of the beings living in the dimension, rather than as powerful as they should be. Going into a fictional place just so happen to be similar to this.

As the Immertion page says, the places being conceptual means that it makes perfect sense for their perspective to see everything as 3-D, or for the audiance at least, and some verses even add in how characters feel or can tell that they're not in reality/the place feels fake.

I bet Superpower Wiki has this as a conceptual power too, and that's no small detail, if it wasn't it would always give stats.

And yeah, SAO, Megaman Battle Network series, Digimon, ect are all perfect examples of digital world being comparable if not superior to their respective "Physical Worlds" via reality fiction debates.

Those, especially Digimon and Megaman, are very much special cases given what's going on in there, most other verses don't have it like them.

Though as for the individual, they aren't quite creating a dream world in those cases. More or less the dream world if anything already exists and people simple travel to it when they fall asleep and no one actually created it. But that's now what I'm talking about, if someone actively creates a dream world, that dream world can still be used for AP. Though, I'm not saying ones done via chain reactions scale to AP, as it's not an AP feat for the sleeper but a feat for some natural force that births universes for every sleep.

If the place in a dream is not called a "dream world" and just a "dream", then logically the person dreaming it is creating it. They may even say in-universe that the person "created" the place. Same with a book, comic, videogame, etc., it isn't right to dismiss how verses state someone to have created those places (dreams, books, etc.) because that's correct, nor should we make up how the places already existed somewhere when they are the dream (or whatever) of someone, and dreamed/created by said person, it's just that some weirld Reality Warping power is used for people to be able to be in those fictional places.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

It's possible that it is another one of these case-by-case scenarios. At least, that's what I believe.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with DDM, liluzivert and DatOneWeeb for the reasons they stated. This is simply too extreme.

I shared the same thought. In my view, I think the judgments can be left on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the replies. It seems like this has largely been rejected then.

Is there some constructive change that we should do with a basis from the discussion here?

 

[Eficiente]

Part of what I wrote in the op is my take on the matter, we agreeing on set on any standards would be what the thread aims for. Though the amount of responses from staff is underwhelming for how much use this can have in the future.

 

[AKM sama]

Much like how our Universe page gives standards on when a dimension can be said to be a universe, and how our Creation page says when Creation can scale to AP, our Immersion page should point out when some non-real, fictional place counts as having a genuine scaling creation or destruction of it scalable to reality.

This seems largely case-by-case, whether or not the scaling in the conceptual non-real world also applies to reality should always depend on the context and evidences. But I don't mind a set of standards in case it makes things easier. I don't have suggestions though.