Immeasurable Speed Revision For DBH/DBX

[SSJRyu1]

@Ultima_Reality

Well to be fair Toki Toki at the end of Xenoverse also has a scroll to view a complete void after Demigra destroys all histories, so we know scrolls can exist that show voids devoid of time. Also her Time stop could just as easily be able to work in a void, Chronoa is able to target individuals with it as opposed to all time as seen where she does not effect Trunks, only Mira and Towa in there confrontation, and says as much, so she doesn't need to stop the time of a place to use it in a traditional sense, so I don't see it as proof to dismiss other statements and feats when its an inconsistency at most, and can potentially be explained by her targeting individuals, not the time of the demon realm, or lack there of.



Chronoa can cast it out further from history so it can't be accessed for sure, but it is already by either interpretation not part of the normal histories as it is already not part of time, so that doesn't really prove it had time either.

All we know for sure is the Demon realm is not part of the regular multiverse, it is said to be "sealed off from time", and the time breakers etc. are said to exist outside the flow of time and be disconnected from and transcend it. Also the Demon realm is said to be run by magic and not science. So take that as you will, but to me it indicates different physical laws and either no time, or a very different flow and perception of time.

But I mean the Demon realms existence was only a minor footnote and not a main point, so Id rather focus on what you think could qualify for infinite or immeasurable speed my man.

 

[ElixirBlue]

The Dark Dragon balls are stated to have flown beyond space time and Towa still reacted to them.

I mean, Bulma reacts to a lot of characters that are supposed to be massively, massively faster than her.

Is there something more than just a reaction?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I mean, Bulma reacts to a lot of characters that are supposed to be massively, massively faster than her.

Is there something more than just a reaction?

I said it would be limited to reaction speed, indeed

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek

1. She uses the same dark energy, is a Demon God, and knew his plan to absorb the multiverse (minus her most likely), and she outright implies he can by saying if he chose he could let them out for winning. There is no reason to believe she is wrong.

2. The only successful act Demigra is able to perform is using his chains to get them out so that is the more likely thing he is referring to. Also we know Mechikabura confirms the Demon gods will be inside his dark power when they are within him and part of his time power further proving again, that when they are referring to his Dark power they are referring to his histories and void. There is no reason to think he is referring to the outside of Mechikabura, when Mechikabura has already absorbed his Dark energy into himself and it is implied he is talking about Demigra's chains successfully pulling out the TP.

3. Mechikabura literally says "become part of my time power" before absorbing them, they are in fact a part of him, or shortly will be, and his power and it is implied eventually so would the time patrol be.

4. Hero Coliseum is something implemented in a later update and is just a mini game, it doesn't show that all the villains are part of the time patrol. The fact is upon meeting many of the villains they are not associated with the time patrol, don't even know Chronoa exists in some cases and arrived there and can leave and come back of their own accord without time tech. I never claimed no mentor is affiliated, but many are factually not until infinite history and can still fly to and from timelines.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Anyway, many arguments here are becoming circular so I am taking a break for the day and waiting for some new faces to weigh in. I would specifically like to hear from some staff members and their take of the points in the OP, what exactly are the requirements for infinite and immeasurable speed at this time so we can only concentrate on points that would be relevant, and which points they think are worth pursuing for either stat.

Thanks in advance to any staff that are willing and able to do this.

 

[Dominodalek]

Ooh, new arguments at last.

1. She uses the same dark energy, is a Demon God, and knew his plan to absorb the multiverse (minus her most likely), and she outright implies he can by saying if he chose he could let them out for winning. There is no reason to believe she is wrong.

It's not the same dark energy, the fact that Dark King Mechikabura has a unique kind of energy is an important plot point in the current arc. While it is suggested she knew the general plan in the arcade (since Dabura speculates about it, though his comment "What’s going to happen to the Dark demon realm…" suggests that he didn't have the full picture) that doesn't mean she would have any detailed knowledge.

2. The only successful act Demigra is able to perform is using his chains to get them out so that is the more likely thing he is referring to. Also we know Mechikabura confirms the Demon gods will be inside his dark power when they are within him and part of his time power further proving again, that when they are referring to his Dark power they are referring to his histories and void. There is no reason to think he is referring to the outside of Mechikabura, when Mechikabura has already absorbed his Dark energy into himself and it is implied he is talking about Demigra's chains successfully pulling out the TP.

Mechikabura is literally shown to be tied up in the previous panel. Mechikabura repeatedly refers to his "power of darkness", both before and after going Time Power Unleashed, so there's no indication he's talking about the histories inside his void specifically - which the characters aren't even inside of.

4. Hero Coliseum is something implemented in a later update and is just a mini game, it doesn't show that all the villains are part of the time patrol. The fact is upon meeting many of the villains they are not associated with the time patrol, don't even know Chronoa exists in some cases and arrived there and can leave and come back of their own accord without time tech. I never claimed no mentor is affiliated, but many are factually not until infinite history and can still fly to and from timelines.

It still has a story, and again it is made very clear that the mentors are all employed by the Time Patrol - to varying degrees of loyalty, but Conton City is shown to have very poor security.

Anyway, many arguments here are becoming circular so I am taking a break for the day and waiting for some new faces to weigh in. I would specifically like to hear from some staff members and their take of the points in the OP, what exactly are the requirements for infinite and immeasurable speed at this time so we can only concentrate on points that would be relevant, and which points they think are worth pursuing for either stat.

Thanks in advance to any staff that are willing and able to do this.

Full agreement here.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well to be fair Toki Toki at the end of Xenoverse also has a scroll to view a complete void after Demigra destroys all histories, so we know scrolls can exist that show voids devoid of time.

Well, Dominodalek did say that Toki Toki pulled up unexplained shenanigans for that to happen in the first place. So, can you elaborate on that? @Dominodalek

Also her Time stop could just as easily be able to work in a void, Chronoa is able to target individuals with it as opposed to all time as seen where she does not effect Trunks, only Mira and Towa in there confrontation, and says as much, so she doesn't need to stop the time of a place to use it in a traditional sense, so I don't see it as proof to dismiss other statements and feats when its an inconsistency at most, and can potentially be explained by her targeting individuals, not the time of the demon realm, or lack there of.

Except that Chronoa's Freeze explicitly works by halting the time immediately around an enemy's body, like she explains to Mira in the scan you've posted, so the Demon Realm would have to possess time in some way, regardless, and this would also mean that the Demons themselves are affected by the flow of time.

But I mean the Demon realms existence was only a minor footnote and not a main point, so Id rather focus on what you think could qualify for infinite or immeasurable speed my man.

Was it? From what I recall of our talks about this, putting aside Mechikabura's feat, you argued for Immeasurable Speed to begin with due to pairing the Demon Realm existing outside of time to how the Time Breakers and Mentors could supposedly travel through time by sheer speed. If you take out the former, then the latter loses any chance of qualifying for Immeasurable Speed and becomes just Time Travel.

And that's disregarding the fact that whether or not they even travel through time by sheer speed is already a pretty big point of contention here.

Although, I understand if you want to take a break from this, nonetheless.

 

[Dominodalek]

Well, Dominodalek did say that Toki Toki pulled up unexplained shenanigans for that to happen in the first place. So, can you elaborate on that?

The context is that Demigra has taken out both the MC and Goku, and fired a powerful energy blast that destroys the building housing the time scrolls, wiping out the multiverse. As the MC passes out, the camera pans over to a time scroll lying on the ground, and Tokitoki (who had been absorbed by Demigra) is briefly heard. The MC wakes up in a void, with a time scroll lying in front of him. He opens it, and the event is shown on the scroll. He uses the scroll to travel back (his past self is notably no longer there) and free Goku, who stops the attack while the MC goes to fight Demigra.

How the MC was able to survive the attack in the first place, why he ended up in that location, or why there was a random time scroll to give him a second chance, is not explained. The closest thing we get to an answer is a random comment from Chronoa that Tokitoki sometimes chooses people to give "Tokitoki's Protection" to, though it is never elaborated on further.

 

[Antvasima]

Really think Time Traveling through speed shouldn’t be listed as Immeasurable. As there is a lot of media in fiction that has Time Travel via Speed listed as just FTL.

AKM is planning to do something about that.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Nice.

Tho, looking at the example I posted, I realize it's not a perfect example, as "beyond" can be viewed as hyperbolic and going into NLF territory but I still stand behind Time Travel via Speed =/= Immeasurable, when looking at all of Fiction.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hey everyone. Very sorry for not saying anything until now as ive been very busy with other things to attend to.

Ultimately I’m pretty neutral as both sides are giving good points, and some here already know about my own thoughts on how to handle immeasurable speed. In fact I have my own thread for discussing certain part s of it:

@ElixirBlue Kukui’s pretty involved in the time travel speed thing and he said yesterday that time travel via sheer speed is proof for immeasurable: https://vsbattles.com/threads/immea...-transcending-space-time.109679/#post-3451385

So overall, I’m neutral rn and stand by the things I said in the other DBH Immeasurable Speed thread.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'm neutral as well. The best evidence would be weather or not Mechikabura can view all of the past, present and future within himself at the same time.

 

[Dominodalek]

I'm neutral as well. The best evidence would be weather or not Mechikabura can view all of the past, present and future within himself at the same time.

The trouble is that, even if he could, it wouldn't be enough to give him Immeasurability by itself - he would need to scale to someone else keeping up with him, but no such feats exist because said hypothetical omnipresence never comes into play.

I notice that the Speed page mentions that, in the case of characters with feats of time travel via movement, characters can be assigned an additional rating specifically for that. Is that still correct?

 

[Antvasima]

That is correct, yes. We should do so in cases where immeasurable speed severely contradicts the otherwise displayed speed levels, or it can be achieved by travelling faster than light, or somesuch.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I didn't understand very well what Domino and Ant said about the speed rating. Can someone explain it to me?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Could you quote what you don't understand?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I notice that the Speed page mentions that, in the case of characters with feats of time travel via movement, characters can be assigned an additional rating specifically for that. Is that still correct?

This is what i didn't understand very well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if I remember correctly, for example, some incarnations of Superman could travel through time by moving faster than light, but this did not fit with their otherwise displayed speed levels, so we gave them separate ratings. However, I think that @AKM sama and other staff members are considering to eventually remove such ratings (from running through time) altogether.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Well, if I remember correctly, for example, some incarnations of Superman could travel through time by moving faster than light, but this did not fit with their otherwise displayed speed levels, so we gave them separate ratings. However, I think that @AKM sama and other staff members are considering to eventually remove such ratings (from running through time) altogether.

@Antvasima

Does time travel via speed diverge from dimensional travel via speed? Because the DB case would be more the latter. Like, would it grant infinite speed instead of immeasurable or something like that?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, dimensional travel does not involve transcending time, so it cannot grant immeasurable speed. Even if somebody travels a literally infinite distance via speed alone, it would "only" amount to infinite speed, but such travel is usually performed via an advanced form of teleportation.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm neutral as well. The best evidence would be weather or not Mechikabura can view all of the past, present and future within himself at the same time.

If he’s aware of what’s in him, yeah, but neither side here seems to be able to prove definitively that he is or isn’t.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Well, dimensional travel does not involve transcending time, so it cannot grant immeasurable speed. Even if somebody travels a literally infinite distance via speed alone, it would "only" amount to infinite speed, but such travel is usually performed via an advanced form of teleportation.

Well, the Shadow Dragons pretty much done it via speed. They traveled through different timelines via speed and they were affecting an infinite amount of timelines.

I will search for more evidence for an infinite speed rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We need more staff evaluations for that though.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bumpo~ This thread was dead for a while now.

Anyways, I have a question. Even if the immeasurable speed stuff gets rejected, shouldn't Mechi have infinite speed for his absorption? I'm not sure if we give speed for a single ability, but iirc, his absorption took some time to absorb the entire multiverse. And considering the multiverse is infinite, shouldn't that grant him infinite speed?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I dont think that grants a speed unless he is present on all the multiverse or he is the multiverse (which I think would give him omnipresence but not sure)

 

[Rikimarox2]

I don't think I understand entirely, but he still took time to absorb everything, right? Absorbing infinite amount of time lines in finite should grant infinite speed, no?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Infinite is when u cross a infinite distance on finite time

I dont think stuff like absorbsion count as a speed rating

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ah, well that sucks.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Infinite is when u cross a infinite distance on finite time

I dont think stuff like absorbsion count as a speed rating

or a finite distance in 0 time

 

[ElixirBlue]

or a finite distance in 0 time

Sounds like that would be something like running in time stop with no time resistance.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That's time hax and time hax resistance though, if moving a finite distance in 0 time is through raw speed, it's infinite speed

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

or a finite distance in 0 time

Yes, but it has to have more context and stated to be done via speed otherwise it will just count as resistance to time stop

 

[Axxtentacle]

If there's no time stop in play, then it's infinite speed

 

[Axxtentacle]

That's time hax and time hax resistance though, if moving a finite distance in 0 time is through raw speed, it's infinite speed

also this

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yeah, the thread has been inactive for a while, and there are more points even now that could be added so I will probably just make a new one in the future with the new points included after the staff iron out what they want there speed standards to be so we know what to focus on. Also I will likely add a infinite speed section to since there are some that fall into that category as well.

 

[sanicspood]

ik im late but i agree with this

 

[Antvasima]

SSJRyu1 asked me in private to close this thread until we have worked out the uncertainties regarding our immeasurable speed standards.