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I'm just gonna give my opinion on Reiatsu Crush, whatever happens happens

KingKenjo

KingKenjo

691
184
I honestly don't expect to change anything (which is why this isn't a CRT) but I genuinely feel like how Reiatsu Crushing and a lot of other Bleach related stuff is handled on this wiki has a ton of bias behind it.

I know it's propee etiquitte to back up my points with Scans, but I'm already digging through the Naruto manga for an unrelated matter and I'm mainly here to vent and get people talking about this more. So yeah, here we go.

So yeah, where to begin... Oh yeah, the idea that every single attack in Bleach always hits peoples' souls is something I've never agreed with.

I'm not trying to debunk the idea of Bleach characters being able to interact with souls by the way. Soul Reapers and Hollows being able to touch Pluses is more than enough proof of that. No, what I'm saying is that Hollows, Soul Reapers, Quincies, pretty much any other race in Bleach isn't intangible like Pluses are.

Maybe first arc Orihime isn't a good example, again I'm not hunting down scans to help prove my point, but she was able to struggle and fight back against her brother (albeit in vain) before she gained her powers. Pluses however are treated as more traditional ghosts (which makes sense if you consider that people would have been bumping into them and finding out about them eventually while the Soul Reapers need to wipe peoples' memories to keep them from finding out about Hollows, though this could be semantic idk). Either way, I've seen people in Bleach vs threads point out that Soul Reapers are physically tangible and no one's questioned it.

To further this point, I want to mention that Bleach characters are physically made of Reishi, which is accepted to be a form of spiritual matter on this forum (which is why Sklaverei is listed as Matter Manipulation). Since they're already accepted to be physical beings, that are made of matter, that leads to one conclusion for me: They have the same body-soul relationship an alive human would have. If I'm missing something blatant then please remind me of it, because I feel like people have jumped from A to F with their logic instead of A to B.

"But what about Reiryoku and Reiatsu?"

It is true that with Bleach's battle mechanics, having a higher Reiatsu can make a character more durable than one with lesser Reiatsu. It's also true that Reiryoku is a spiritual energy that comes from the soul. But just because they use the words "Spiritual" and "Soul" to describe all of this does not make everything they do with these things bypass physical Durability. These characters fight using physical, tangible bodies, and every effect we've seen Reiatsu have, including Reiatsu Crush, has happened to the character's body. Their bodies may be a different kind of matter than normal, but it should be reasonably assumed to work the same way as conventional matter unless there's good evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, I've said my piece. Hopefully when I wake up later there won't be a flame war here.
 
We have straight feats of characthers interacting with souls and souls inside a physical body,including pluses wich are intangible souls . Reiatsu Crush have those feats as well. Reiatsu straight up affect the soul by clear statement from the manga , the reason physical bodies are affected is because having your soul destroyed is bad for your health.

Any soul characther beside pluses aren't intangible , that is true. The mistake is made because Viz ****** up badly in their translation and stated that they were.

Tangible or not,reishi is still spiritual and they're still souls. Souls in naruto can be grabbed physically as well but jutsu affecting them are still treated as soul hax and considered instant kill if successfull. Bleach just have that but passivelly all around them and on absolute steroids, how is that bias ?
 
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Naeblis495 said:
We have straight feats of characthers interacting with souls and souls inside a physical body,including pluses wich are intangible souls . Reiatsu Crush have those feats as well. Reiatsu straight up affect the soul by clear statement from the manga , the reason physical bodies are affected is because having your soul destroyed is bad for your health.

Any soul characther beside pluses aren't intangible , that is true. The mistake is made because Viz ****** up badly in their translation and stated that they were.

Tangible or not,reishi is still spiritual and they're still souls. Souls in naruto can be grabbed physically as well but jutsu affecting them are still treated as soul hax and considered instant kill if successfull. Bleach just have that but passivelly all around them and on absolute steroids, how is that bias ?
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Can I ask where all those feats and statements are? Cuz I really am having a hard time believing that it's all over the place and I just never noticed.

The one time I can think of off the top of my head is Aizen extracting the Hogyoku from Rukia's soul, which clearly required a ritual to accomplish.

If you want to argue using other verses, Dark Souls Sorceries literally use Souls as projectiles and they worked out that they don't hit other souls.
For that matter, I don't think there's consistent enough stuff about what being "spiritual" means for people between verses to really give the sweeping statement that beings made of Spiritual matter always hit the soul. It's a fallacy in every way I can think of.

Even if I end up being so wrong that nothing ends up changing, you have to know how ridiculous this stuff gets when trying to make Vs threads. I can't even match up first arc Orihime against another Wall Level character without everyone immediately jumping on the "Soul Crush GG" train. Since Bleach is such a popular verse there really should be a verse specific rule that you can restrict Reiatsu Crushing and still have the thread be able to be added. I know it's a legitimate mechanic that's canon to the series, and it doesn't make sense to restrict a passive hax. But if One Piece can have its Logia rules to make things easier for everyone despite those being passive in universe then Bleach could have a specific rule that evens the playing field a bit.
 
Spiritual powers(and thus reiatsu) of lieutenant rank and above have to be restricted upon entering the Living World to not cause unvoluntory harm to the souls present in the area :

This is not related to the damage they could cause while fighting as they have other special procedures for that :

Yammy suck hundreds of souls out of their physical body and unvoluntarily crush Tatsuki's SOUL by being near her with his casual reiatsu,despite her being in a physical body :

And we also have numerous feats of reiatsu affecting high level souls as well.


Those feats and statements prove that reiatsu work reguardless of the type of soul, intangible or not, or if it's inside a physically body or not .


If you're salty about how passives are treated in this site , that is another issue. But A LOT of verses have instant win passives (like star wars for example) and all of them are treated the same way. There is no traces of bias here .

Either way, this is not the type of thread you should make. Go try to make a crt to change how passives are handled wiki wide if that bother you.
 
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This is a bait thread... Why feed it?

Clearly the OP just wants to incite a toxic discussion without actually proving any of his claims.
 
Naeblis495 said:
Spiritual powers(and thus reiatsu) of lieutenant rank and above have to be restricted upon entering the Living World to not cause unvoluntory harm to the souls present in the area :

This is not related to the damage they could cause while fighting as they have other special procedures for that :

Yammy suck hundreds of souls out of their physical body and unvoluntarily crush Tatsuki's SOUL by being near her with his casual reiatsu,despite her being in a physical body :

And we also have numerous feats of reiatsu affecting high level souls as well.


Those feats and statements prove that reiatsu work reguardless of the type of soul, intangible or not, or if it's inside a physically body or not .


If you're salty about how passives are treated in this site , that is another issue. But A LOT of verses have instant win passives (like star wars for example) and all of them are treated the same way. There is no traces of bias here .

Either way, this is not the type of thread you should make. Go try to make a crt to change how passives are handled wiki wide if that bother you.
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I apologize for the way I've been wording things, I've just seen this kinda stuff for so long without anyone explaining it properly that I let way too much salt build up. This was never meant as a bait thread, I just couldn't understand everything and called it bias because of that. Thanks for providing me solid examples, it's helped me calm down a lot.

Regardless, judging from all that, wouldn't it make more sense for characters that are below Lieutenant Level (which is still not a lot of characters but it's enough to count) wouldn't have that kind of instant win Soul hax? Because like I said before, I've seen people call "Soul Crush gg" for characters that aren't anywhere near Lieutenant Level. If that's how it's currently accepted then I apologize for bringing it up again. But it's worth noting.

For the record I did know about Yammy's Konzui before starting this thread. Though I don't think that's evidence for anything except that Yammy (or all Hollows, not 100% sure which) can use that technique. I still don't think it makes sense that the character's physical attacks always hit peoples' souls. If you have any more evidence for it or a better explanation I'll gladly listen.
 
Most relevant characthers are lieutenant level and above . You could only debate that when using very early Bleach Characthers.
Quincies are fair game tho. Quincies beside Yhwach and maybe Jugram don't release passive reiatsu.

For evidence about them affecting souls even inside bodies with their basic attacks , we only have to look at the Vizards and Fullbringers.

The Vizard are souls inside gigai (fake physical bodies) to interact in the living world. Yet , when their fake bodies are wounded in battle,they are affected just as much despite beings souls. Example are Hiyori being cut in half by Gin, Shinji freaks out , thinking that only Orihime ,or later, Unohana could fix an injury that serious. If the soul wasn't affected, they only would need to get her out the fake body for her to be completely fine, wich anybody with a Gikon or forcefull soul removal tool, like rukia's glove,urahara's cane or ichigo's badge could do.

For more proof, we have the Fullbringers. The FB are living humans with special powers. The three FB's souls that died went straight to SS. That shouldn't be the case if their souls weren't affected by a zanpakuto.If only their physical bodies were affected, upon dying their souls should have lingered in the Living World until a shinigami performed Konso on them . Meaning that even tho the shinigami that killed them only fought their physical forms, they still impacted their souls.
 
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Naeblis495 said:
Most relevant characthers are lieutenant level and above . You could only debate that when using very early Bleach Characthers.
Quincies are fair game tho. Quincies beside Yhwach and maybe Jugram don't release passive reiatsu.

For evidence about them affecting souls even inside bodies with their basic attacks , we only have to look at the Vizards and Fullbringers.

The Vizard are souls inside gigai (fake physical bodies) to interact in the living world. Yet , when their fake bodies are wounded in battle,they are affected just as much despite beings souls. Example are Hiyori being cut in half by Gin, Shinji freaks out , thinking that only Orihime ,or later, Unohana could fix an injury that serious. If the soul wasn't affected, they only would need to get her out the fake body for her to be completely fine, wich anybody with a Gikon or forcefull soul removal tool, like rukia's glove,urahara's cane or ichigo's badge could do.

For more proof, we have the Fullbringers. The FB are living humans with special powers. The three FB's souls that died went straight to SS. That shouldn't be the case if their souls weren't affected by a zanpakuto.If only their physical bodies were affected, upon dying their souls should have lingered in the Living World until a shinigami performed Konso on them . Meaning that even tho the shinigami that killed them only fought their physical forms, they still impacted their souls.
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You know, I never thought the Vizards were still in their Gigais in that fight. I always figured they pushed themselves out of them beforehand. It made sense to me since they were using their Zanpakuto. But now that you point that out it made me realize that they'd probably be in their Shihakusho if they had done that.

As for the Fullbringers, that also never really crossed my mind. If anything I thought they passed on to the Soul Society the nornal way.

So yeah, I guess I should apologize again. Turns out, surprisingly, asking nicely is 1000% more effective than lashing out in anger.

One last question though: Since we're using Zanpakuto logic for both of those examples, why do we assume that Hollows and Quincies also do this? I understand why Fullbringers can, that's kinda their thing, but if it's a Zanpakuto thing then wouldn't anyone without a Zanpakuto not be able to do it?
 
KingKenjo said:
One last question though: Since we're using Zanpakuto logic for both of those examples, why do we assume that Hollows and Quincies also do this? I understand why Fullbringers can, that's kinda their thing, but if it's a Zanpakuto thing then wouldn't anyone without a Zanpakuto not be able to do it?
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Hollows are even better at interacting with souls in general, with more techniques and feats overall . For example , we have Orihime's brother Sora who after becoming a hollow, being able to phase through her physical body and remove her soul , without any external tool unlike the shinigami :

And arrancars have obviously their own zanpakuto on top of that given their shinigami powers.

Edit : Althought,i just remembered something : Shinigami can affect souls inside a body even without a zanpakuto ,via Kido :
Showned in the very first chapter ,Rukia clearly say if ichigo tried to force out of it , his soul would be affected. To me it mean that Rukia in fact binded his soul , not his physical body and that it affected his physical body. Just like reiatsu , despite affecting only the soul, will make humans physically ill or straight up die.

As for quincies, i don't have proper feats to present off the top of my head ( as i don't think any quincy ever hit a physical body with an arrow). but given that all races use the same power system(Reiryoku), with only variations, and with no clear statements or anti-feat on their part, i think it's mostly assumed that quincies also have the basis of soul interaction just like the other races.

But i'm also not the most knowledgeable member on Bleach and may have forgotten some feats or statements, so if you want more precisions , you may ask your questions directly in the Bleach general thread. If you don't come off all agressive and confrontational , i'm sure most of the members would be happy to awnser them.
 
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Naeblis495 said:
Hollows are even better at interacting with souls in general, with more techniques and feats overall . For example , we have Orihime's brother Sora who after becoming a hollow, being able to phase through her physical body and remove her soul , without any external tool unlike the shinigami :

And arrancars have obviously their own zanpakuto on top of that given their shinigami powers.

Edit : Althought,i just remembered something : Shinigami can affect souls inside a body even without a zanpakuto ,via Kido :
Showned in the very first chapter ,Rukia clearly say if ichigo tried to force out of it , his soul would be affected. To me it mean that Rukia in fact binded his soul , not his physical body and that it affected his physical body. Just like reiatsu , despite affecting only the soul, will make humans physically ill or straight up die.

As for quincies, i don't have proper feats to present off the top of my head ( as i don't think any quincy ever hit a physical body with an arrow). but given that all races use the same power system(Reiryoku), with only variations, and with no clear statements or anti-feat on their part, i think it's mostly assumed that quincies also have the basis of soul interaction just like the other races.

But i'm also not the most knowledgeable member on Bleach and may have forgotten some feats or statements, so if you want more precisions , you may ask your questions directly in the Bleach general thread. If you don't come off all agressive and confrontational , i'm sure most of the members would be happy to awnser them.
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Man, I really can't believe how much I've managed to miss about this series even after learning so much about it. Thanks for being patient enough to deal with my anger, I really needed someone to explain all this to me.
 
KingKenjo said:
Man, I really can't believe how much I've managed to miss about this series even after learning so much about it. Thanks for being patient enough to deal with my anger, I really needed someone to explain all this to me.
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No problem.

And i think it is easy to miss those because it's not treated as that big a deal in the Bleach Verse . Everything is Soul Based and that is only OP against other verses because they don't have the same innates defences agaist spiritual stuff. Most of the soul hax in Bleach are not that dangerous unless there is a clear and massive difference in Soul power and resistance. Reiatsu being a problem in an even match up is never brought out so most people don't think it's all that good .

Look how different Soul Stuff is treated in Naruto for example,despite their soul techniques being much weaker than Bleach's : All techniques involving souls are treated as extremely lethal, from legendary powers or forbidden techniques. Therefore it's easier to the readers to associate it to very potent stuff.
 
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