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Oi would you look at that. Cal removed 133kb from Ikki's profile and moved the feats into a blog. Das nice of him.
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Ikki Kurogane vs Mega Alakazam
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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Yes he does need to hit with his sword, but stuff like Trackless Step (pseudo teleport but in this key it's a bit worse cus he strike and Mega Alakazam wouldn't even realize) and him just throwing his sword exist.
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He literally enters your sub-consciousness. Your mind blocks him intentionally cus it deems him as useless info so it just ends up as you not feeling anything between point A (when ikki si away) to point B (when ikki is striking you). Shizuku could literally not feel even a time difference.
No but, it's an option.
No but, it's an option.
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Leaning towards Ikki rn, but waiting on Cal.
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He forces someone to think of him as useless information? He does this all on instinct? Has he done this to non-humans? Has he done this to supergeniuses?
"Its highly developed brain is on par with a supercomputer. It can use all forms of psychic abilities."
"It has an IQ of 5000. It calculates many things in order to gain the edge in every battle."
"A POKéMON that can memorize anything. It never forgets what it learns--that's why this POKéMON is smart."
"Its superb memory lets it recall everything it has experienced from birth. Its IQ exceeds 5,000." "Its brain cells multiply continually until it dies. As a result, it remembers everything."
"ALAKAZAM's brain continually grows, infinitely multiplying brain cells. This amazing brain gives this POKéMON an astoundingly high IQ of 5,000. It has a thorough memory of everything that has occurred in the world."
A highly developed nonhuman supergenius that calculates many things in every battle, that thinks at speeds rivalling supercomputers, with a thorough memory where it never forgets what it learns, & remembers everything it has experienced from birth?
I don't think that's the sort of mind a "make you block out my presence by convincing your brain it's uselss information" technique would work on, especially if Alakazam is hostile, & especially if the technique has only been shown working on human minds.
And especially since Alakazam has resistance to Mind Manipulation. I don't think that mind trick would work.
"Its highly developed brain is on par with a supercomputer. It can use all forms of psychic abilities."
"It has an IQ of 5000. It calculates many things in order to gain the edge in every battle."
"A POKéMON that can memorize anything. It never forgets what it learns--that's why this POKéMON is smart."
"Its superb memory lets it recall everything it has experienced from birth. Its IQ exceeds 5,000." "Its brain cells multiply continually until it dies. As a result, it remembers everything."
"ALAKAZAM's brain continually grows, infinitely multiplying brain cells. This amazing brain gives this POKéMON an astoundingly high IQ of 5,000. It has a thorough memory of everything that has occurred in the world."
A highly developed nonhuman supergenius that calculates many things in every battle, that thinks at speeds rivalling supercomputers, with a thorough memory where it never forgets what it learns, & remembers everything it has experienced from birth?
I don't think that's the sort of mind a "make you block out my presence by convincing your brain it's uselss information" technique would work on, especially if Alakazam is hostile, & especially if the technique has only been shown working on human minds.
And especially since Alakazam has resistance to Mind Manipulation. I don't think that mind trick would work.
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Trackless Step being something akin to teleportation? Also, I thought you were asserting that Ikki one shots by stabbing with his sword via Phantom Form.
Since the alternative is likely getting one shot himself by Alakazam's telekinesis.
I mentioned Ikki's death manipulation multiple, which Alakazam does not resist
Since the alternative is likely getting one shot himself by Alakazam's telekinesis.
I mentioned Ikki's death manipulation multiple, which Alakazam does not resist
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Well he doesn't "force" it. Every mind has a limit to what it can process. It doesn't process everything otherwise it would burn itself out. As such it blocks useless info out, so that it can save resources for what it needs. Ikki moves in a certain way that it fullfills these criterrias for the mind to deem him as unecessary info. Being smart doesn't really help as he still can't access his unconsciousness nor is there anything saying he doesn't have an unconciousness.
@Schnee
Ikki has only ever killed an opponent once and it is later in the series because he was forced to do so. Him using death manip is very very unlikely. And even then he hasn't ever used the thought based death manip, only the one where he imbues his blade with the "causation of killing". So while you're not wrong it's best to keep those out.
@Schnee
Ikki has only ever killed an opponent once and it is later in the series because he was forced to do so. Him using death manip is very very unlikely. And even then he hasn't ever used the thought based death manip, only the one where he imbues his blade with the "causation of killing". So while you're not wrong it's best to keep those out.
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@Schnee One: And after you said, "Anyway, I think this is enough to confirm that Ikki will probably use his Death Hax first, so voting Ikki.", I asked: "Also, you think what is enough to confirm Ikki will use his Death Hax first? When does he use it, IC?"
I apologize if my memory's bad, but I'm not sure I saw an answer for that particular question.
Also, how do we know his death manipulation's potency isn't related to an internal power level system, or has the caveat of working on weaker foes?
@Firephoenixearl: I'm not entirely sure Alakazam's never-forgetting, supercomputer level, constantly brain cell producing mind works that way. Being deemed useless info so useless it's not even on the conscious mind seems like making someone forget, for one, & doesn't seem likely to occur when you're the object of hostility of that perfect memory having mind.
Not to mention, if this is based on viewing Ikki's movements, it might be thwarted by Alakazam having its eyes closed (as it would when amping itself) & thus not seing him.
Also, how do we know his death manipulation's potency isn't related to an internal power level system, or has the caveat of working on weaker foes?
@Firephoenixearl: I'm not entirely sure Alakazam's never-forgetting, supercomputer level, constantly brain cell producing mind works that way. Being deemed useless info so useless it's not even on the conscious mind seems like making someone forget, for one, & doesn't seem likely to occur when you're the object of hostility of that perfect memory having mind.
Not to mention, if this is based on viewing Ikki's movements, it might be thwarted by Alakazam having its eyes closed (as it would when amping itself) & thus not seing him.
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Intelligence=/=Perception. You'll need something with incredible sensory abilities, like most Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ke characters, or BlazBlue characters.
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Alakazam has Enhanced Senses. (In fact, twice, without even a tabber to separate the two entries.)
"Closing both its eyes heightens all its other senses. This enables it to use its abilities to their extremes." Also, the Telepathy. And Instinct: A Conquest ability. Alakazam's instinct and precognition makes it so it swiftly evade attacks. Not to mention its precognition, Abra's instinctive reaction, & telepathic radar. And even if Ikki is able to do this while the possibility of it being an Illusionary copy is present AND he's dealing with an intense headache just from being near Alakazam, he still has to opt to use this technique before Alakazam kills him with a telekinetic attack, given the supposed AP advantage. If we include Let's Go moves, Alakazam could have a Substitute take the hit, then kill Ikki, if it gave up a quarter of its stamina prior. |
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@Imaginym
Death Manipulation being based off strength has never actually been a thing In the series, besides, Alakazam has Mid Low regen, any form of Death Manip would kill him.
Also, not sure why you're stressing Precog when Type 4 negs it.
@Fire
That's mostly because he's restricted to tournament settings, plus I don't think he'll have as much of a problem using death manipulation to kill an animal when he has no other option.
Death Manipulation being based off strength has never actually been a thing In the series, besides, Alakazam has Mid Low regen, any form of Death Manip would kill him.
Also, not sure why you're stressing Precog when Type 4 negs it.
@Fire
That's mostly because he's restricted to tournament settings, plus I don't think he'll have as much of a problem using death manipulation to kill an animal when he has no other option.
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Aight, I'll give my clarification as someone asked.
In Pokémon, mental abilities can work even on literal computer data. Not sure how Ikki's instinct is getting his way past that. Also Miracle Eye is a thing.
Trackless Step entering Alakazam's subconscious isn't really...gonna happen due to Alakazam's mental resistances, instinctive reaction, and being the smartest thing on the Pokémon planet (the gods ain't on the planet), debatably excluding Mewtwo.
In Pokémon, mental abilities can work even on literal computer data. Not sure how Ikki's instinct is getting his way past that. Also Miracle Eye is a thing.
Trackless Step entering Alakazam's subconscious isn't really...gonna happen due to Alakazam's mental resistances, instinctive reaction, and being the smartest thing on the Pokémon planet (the gods ain't on the planet), debatably excluding Mewtwo.
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I don't get your point with this.Imaginym said:
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My point was, in the post where I mentioned Instinct, I mentioned Instinct not to point out the Precognition aspect, but the aspect of Enhanced Senses/Instinctive Reaction. Same with the Pokedex entry I mentioned in that post.
Bringing up that the Instinct Ability is Precognition is just something VSBW's description of it mentions; I just copypasted that.
Plus, instinctively reacting to your opponent is a thing, even if you don't know what they're thinking, nor what they'll do in the future. (Well, know beyond what might be calculated.)
Bringing up that the Instinct Ability is Precognition is just something VSBW's description of it mentions; I just copypasted that.
Plus, instinctively reacting to your opponent is a thing, even if you don't know what they're thinking, nor what they'll do in the future. (Well, know beyond what might be calculated.)
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@Cal
Being smart isn't gonna help. I have an IQ of 200 doesn't mean i don't have a subconsciousness.
Mental resistances don't work. Everyone has a subconsciousness, ikki just makes himself be part of yours. Mental resistances have nothing to do with it, to deal with trackless step you need either the ability to enter your own subconsciousness (like Ikki does) or literally have no subconsciousness at all. If you can prove either that's fine.
@Imaginym
Everyone and their grandmother in Rakudai has enhanced senses and even extra sensory perception. Doesn't help against Trackless Step.
No illusion will fool ikki due to his senses. He can literally find out people who use conceptual stealth without a problem using his senses.
Headache, as i said he fought "fullpower" and could do literally everything he can normally against Edelweiss which is showed you feats above of what she can do by literally just standing there.
Instinctive Reaction as specified even in the wiki "doesn't let one react to things they would be normally unable to perceive" (like against Trackless Step). IR is literally just "faster reactions" because you can react without the whole "info reaches brain, brain sends signals etc". Doesn't stop trackless step.
@Schnee
Yeah but as i said even after that, he has never used it. We don't even know if he can use it, it's just that he "should be able to use it scaling from Edelweiss who could do the same due to being a desperado". Even when not in a tournament like in the all out war he still hasn't used it. So it's just a last resort not really something you can argue will pop up mid battle (i mean it would due to his senses but i'd prefer not to use it). And his Oikage at this point is just conceptual cut (dura neg), he learns the "causation of killing" in the Vermillion Empire arc.
Being smart isn't gonna help. I have an IQ of 200 doesn't mean i don't have a subconsciousness.
Mental resistances don't work. Everyone has a subconsciousness, ikki just makes himself be part of yours. Mental resistances have nothing to do with it, to deal with trackless step you need either the ability to enter your own subconsciousness (like Ikki does) or literally have no subconsciousness at all. If you can prove either that's fine.
@Imaginym
Everyone and their grandmother in Rakudai has enhanced senses and even extra sensory perception. Doesn't help against Trackless Step.
No illusion will fool ikki due to his senses. He can literally find out people who use conceptual stealth without a problem using his senses.
Headache, as i said he fought "fullpower" and could do literally everything he can normally against Edelweiss which is showed you feats above of what she can do by literally just standing there.
Instinctive Reaction as specified even in the wiki "doesn't let one react to things they would be normally unable to perceive" (like against Trackless Step). IR is literally just "faster reactions" because you can react without the whole "info reaches brain, brain sends signals etc". Doesn't stop trackless step.
@Schnee
Yeah but as i said even after that, he has never used it. We don't even know if he can use it, it's just that he "should be able to use it scaling from Edelweiss who could do the same due to being a desperado". Even when not in a tournament like in the all out war he still hasn't used it. So it's just a last resort not really something you can argue will pop up mid battle (i mean it would due to his senses but i'd prefer not to use it). And his Oikage at this point is just conceptual cut (dura neg), he learns the "causation of killing" in the Vermillion Empire arc.
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- Thread starter
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No, mental resistances totally prevent the alteration of the subconscious. The subconscious is still a part of the mind and should be unable to be entered with sufficient mental barriers.
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Is this gonna turn into another "this works because of X!" and "it doesn't because of Y!" like against Hinata?
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You completely missed my point. The mind blocks things on her own. Ikki just becomes irrelevant so that the mind will willingly block him.The real cal howard said:
A simpler example. You're a 9ft tall club guard that kicks out people who come running instead of walking. Ikki comes running so that you kick him out. It's really not him doing anything at all to you. It's just him fulfilling that one requirement that makes you block him. In this case him choosing to run because he knows that you'll block him if he does.
Fr doe this whole resistance thing has gone into everyone's head. Ikki does footwork, yeah reality warping resistance negs that. Penn and teller don't get fooled by a magic trick, yeah they have resistance to social influencing and mind manip. Know the difference between supernatural and normal stuff. The dude is literally doing footwork.
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If it's supernatural, then mental resistances take care of that. If it's natural, Alakazam outthinking supercomputers even before going Mega sure as heck isn't going to fall for such a trick.
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It's not supernatural.
That's again missing the point shizuku was an absolute genius capable of making trillions of calculations on a cellular level to reform her body in a matter or moments all while losing actual tons of blood and having been sliced in half. And she is literally one of the most vulnerable ppl to this move in the series. Being smart doesn't mean you have no sub consciousness. It's just being smart, this whole blocking thing is something the mind does unconsciousiously, being smart doesn't influence that.
That's again missing the point shizuku was an absolute genius capable of making trillions of calculations on a cellular level to reform her body in a matter or moments all while losing actual tons of blood and having been sliced in half. And she is literally one of the most vulnerable ppl to this move in the series. Being smart doesn't mean you have no sub consciousness. It's just being smart, this whole blocking thing is something the mind does unconsciousiously, being smart doesn't influence that.
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Then it does affect the mind and therefore cant get past mental barriers. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
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To be fair ikki's abilities are all incredibly weird because the author refuses to acknowledge anything he does as magic/science/ki other nebulous concept that other series use to explain away there nonsensical elements. The series tries to insist that ikki does everything he does via pure skill which more often then not makes zero sense. Heck he has a feat of beating fourty something clones of himself, via skill....
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I don't think he created clones, I think that was Sara Bloodlily
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I never said he made them just that he beat fourty of them. Somehow despite the clones explicitly being his equal... And he did it via skill!
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Correction, they were 48x stronger then him, they were using Ittou Shura, he was in base.
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And he won via skill....Only reinforcing my point there
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I'm not saying you're wrong....
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It is pretty dumb...
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I initially liked Ikki in the beginning of the series but it got out of hand when every explanation is via raw skill alone
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Yes Cal, it's either 1 of these 2 so that your charcter can resist it. It's not mind manip, it's just footwork but can be countered normally with just "enough skill to tap into your subconsciousness" or "literally not having an unconsciousness". Seriously i've said this already. Your character lacking what it needs to counter. It can be countered by normal means, just not the ones you're mentioning.The real cal howard said:
@Pen
Well yes. That's the issue, everything has an explanation no matter how weird or supernatural it sounds on paper. And i mean it. It's sounds like that cus you lack context.
That clone thing yeah well, they didn't have the same thought. They had an enforced and abusable mindset. They were conceptually made to "win against Ikki" so they abused every single oppening they saw even if it were well...fake. So ikki just ended up abusing that single flaw in mindset/mentality.
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No amount of context will get me to believe a character with no supernatural nonsense can beat clones 48 times stronger then him nor will it make me believe they can punch way out of there weight class. Sorry not buying the idea pure "SKEEL" Is enough to do anything presented in calvalry, at least other series are willing to admit its nonsense based on magical nonsense like ki/super science/ect
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I'm surprised we haven't treated that as an outlier, tbh.
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I mean your choice. There is an actual context explanation in that very scene which explains why he was able to beat those 4 clones. Your make believe of "i won't believe it" is just your opinion. That doesn't give you the right to call it "nonsensical" while being not knowledgeable on the concept.
Ikki's skill is "everything that is theoretically possible being made practically possible". So it all makes sense as a possibilty it is just "It's possible, but no one is capable of doing it". A good example would be this:
The venue was circular, and the sounds from the audience audience covered it. Within that sound was… a human-shaped void!
"Over there!"
It only took a split second for Ikki to switch from sight to sound, locate Sara, and cut towards her. Once attention was focused, the effect of Stone Gray vanishes, and Sara would not be able to escape—
Using that is "possible" as in if you had enough skill to actually realize how the sound bounces off every single object and realize an abnormality. But there is literally no one who can do that. Even bats actually produce sounds on their own. However it's not "impossible" it's just "practically impossible/ no one can achieve it".
Ikki's skill is "everything that is theoretically possible being made practically possible". So it all makes sense as a possibilty it is just "It's possible, but no one is capable of doing it". A good example would be this:
The venue was circular, and the sounds from the audience audience covered it. Within that sound was… a human-shaped void!
"Over there!"
It only took a split second for Ikki to switch from sight to sound, locate Sara, and cut towards her. Once attention was focused, the effect of Stone Gray vanishes, and Sara would not be able to escape—
Using that is "possible" as in if you had enough skill to actually realize how the sound bounces off every single object and realize an abnormality. But there is literally no one who can do that. Even bats actually produce sounds on their own. However it's not "impossible" it's just "practically impossible/ no one can achieve it".
Jackythejack
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''my brain hurt trying to read that''
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Moving on leaning on ikki he can oneshot via phantom form and his stats boost should let him blitz before alakazam can really respond.
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Phantom Form is a state of his sword. Not an ability. It's just him making his ability practically a 1 shot knockout.Imaginym said:
@Pen
Yes but as you see. The sound around still bounces off her. He can just notice that. It's not something you can achieve but it is physically and logically possible. It makes more sense that the stupid stuff with "attacking from different universes via skill" or "achieving magic with skill" which are just poor excuses for skill. Lazy stuff.
