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Ikki Kurogane vs Mega Alakazam

Fair its more believable then doing either of those things via skill, I just wish more series would go this is magic/ki nonsense rather then pretend what they are doing is somehow logical.
 
Yes but that would be throwing the whole point of the character outta the window. He's skill, not magic. Magic is there to well amp and shit, but the rest is skill. And again, that is logical, it's just not humanly possible no matter how you take it. What he is doing makes sense, what doesn't make sense is that he's actually doing them. If you get what i mean.

That was just an example, but literally all of his skill feats have an in depth explanation. With the exception of maybe his body control feats, which are just "with his insane body control he can do this".
 
It's called Charles Atlas superpowers. The guys and I were discussing this last night. It doesn't matter if the series treats it as superpowers or not. It's pretty much superpowers and we treat it that way.
 
Hahahahaha no. You're just grouping everything into whatever you want for stupid reasons. That only applies to stuff that has actually no explanation like juzou cutting concepts or kojirou attacking from different universes via skill.

Not when there is an actual explanation to say how it is done down to the last detail in a way that it's logically done via skill.
 
Imaginym said:
Isn't it also the case Alakazam can one shot via telekinesis, however? And how many things other than Phantom Form is Ikki gonna try before he tries Phantom Form?
Click to expand...
Unless Alakazam scales far above the feat, he doesn't one shot, he's not even High 7A plus for that matter
 
I don't know how high above High 7-A it scales, but it can amp via just closing its eyes. And if it maintains the ability from Kadabra, it'll also have stronger psychic powers the more danger it's in:


"It possesses strong spiritual power. The more danger it faces, the stronger its psychic power."

Also, Calm Mind. Plus, Sharpshooter IQ Skill means it passively has a boosted chance to land Critical Hits

If it uses Psychic Terrain, its Psychic moves are 50% stronger while it's on the ground.
 
Yeah but he still won't be able to do much to ikki's trackless step nor to his ittou rasetsu blitz. I vote ikki rather decisively.
 
If Ikki doesn't use those before Alakazam assaults him or holds him in place with telekinesis, he's much less able to approach.

Plus, setting aside the matter of mind maniping a nonhuman supergenius with a technique based on moving, & on the workings of the human mind, there comes up the question of: If Alakazam doesn't see Ikki as a threat, why wouldn't it just attack him?

Or heck, just Teleport away because it doesn't feel threatened & thus, lost incentive to fight?

Or just has a Substitute up to absorb the hit for it.

And if it fails the first time, somehow Alakazam can Disable it. And if it's based purely on sklled movement, what stops Alakazam copying it with Role Play & pulling the same trick on him?

Plus, if Ikki tries anything ineffective, Alakazam MAY be able to lock him into it with Encore.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Hahahahaha no. You're just grouping everything into whatever you want for stupid reasons. That only applies to stuff that has actually no explanation like juzou cutting concepts or kojirou attacking from different universes via skill.

Not when there is an actual explanation to say how it is done down to the last detail in a way that it's logically done via skill.
Click to expand...
Aight so if he shoots fire from his mouth through pure skill it's not fire manipulation because it's just skill, right?
 
Yeah "when it is logically done via skill". If you can give an explanation as to how he does it via skill then it will be fire manip but stuff like "i null fire manip" but worked in verse by blocking magic. While this guy does it by...idk saving energy from his cells. Then yeah.
 
With senses in play that is heavily questionable.

It's actually how all minds work not just humans. Alakazam literally blocks him from his mind. Alakazam won't even be able to see him and not sense time difference since he's not combat oriented at all.

Ikki failing to hit an enemy that's not even capable of reacting to him. I mean he is the most skilled character in the wiki for a reason.

Alakazam copying skill feats on ikki's level is nlf.

This is the same as a previous point, ikki won't really pull anything ineffective.
 
>Most skilled character on the wiki

And with that statement he is now the most wanked character on the wiki. Dude wasn't no. 1 on the list the last time we made it.
 
Honestly, just refrain from "wank" claims and statements which aren't even valid refutations to any actual points. Don't make this worse than it needs to be.
 
The real cal howard said:
>Most skilled character on the wiki

And with that statement he is now the most wanked character on the wiki. Dude wasn't no. 1 on the list the last time we made it.
Click to expand...
He, at least, is the most skilled character of every single tier he is in, going by the most skilled list.
 
He, at least, is the most skilled character of every single tier he is in, going by the most skilled list.

^^

Going by actual legit skill feats he is. But yeah calling wank on my statement which whether is true or not really isn't a factor in this fight due to how much he still dwarfs in skill here isn't going to help. Also wanked when using actual feats from the novel with their descriptions...why doe?
 
So, reading this out, this seems to functionally be a "magic nullification vs. sci fi power" type debate.

Here's my philosophy on that kind of discussion. If the nullification if negating the effect, but not preventing the cause, it doesn't matter the exact mechanics of the cause, it just matter what effect is being produced that can be nullified. A fire extinguisher should work the same on a magically-started fire and a naturally-started fire, but a counterspell may only work on the former, for example.

If the nullification is negating the cause, then it matters the exact mechanics behind what's being done. A magical fire that doesn't need to consome oxygen won't be effected by something sucking up all the oxygen in the room, for example. Conversely a mana-draining spell will do jack-all to a dude with a flamethrower.

I'm incline to agree with cal, on that point. It doesn't matter if it's caused by "pure skill", "magic crack dust", or "the power of love and friendship", if the effect is the same then it can be nulled, if that's what the nullification is concerned with.
 
My comment?

If it's been heard before then I'm certain there's a response to it you can dredge up instead of just pointing out that it's been said on a previous thread.

(EDIT): Misunderstood the comment above, whoops.
 
The pen or the sword said:
To be fair Im not sure we can blame pokemon on this one just look at ikki threads in general, few ever seem to go well.
Click to expand...
Cole went well, David went well, Issei went well.

Pokémon threads consistently go way worse.
 
Strange... I'm getting notifications for this thread but I didn't comment on it until now...
 
Gar, How is calling out someone calling Ikki the most skilled character out of everyone else on the wiki (not one of, the most) a cause for Pokémon being toxic?
 
You think something is wanked? You let it go and you deal with it instead of dropping "Most Wanked Character on the wiki" (Lol if this is serious)

Seriously, everyone on this wiki wanks here, I do, you do, everyone does, calling it out when someone else makes an out there claim is ludicrous and you're own fault. You think it's ridiculous? Fine, I do too, let it go.
 
@Dargo

The problem is if something is believed to work one way so it's just piled up together with other things just so we can have 1 character be able to deal with the other. Manipulating someone's mind directly to affect his thoughts, isn't the same as someguy moving in fancy ways so that you unconsciously think "yeah f him, he's not worth processing".
 
Firephoenixearl said:
@Dargo
The problem is if something is believed to work one way so it's just piled up together with other things just so we can have 1 character be able to deal with the other. Manipulating someone's mind directly to affect his thoughts, isn't the same as someguy moving in fancy ways so that you unconsciously think "yeah f him, he's not worth processing".
Click to expand...
As I've said it really depends. As a site we actually have to group together similar powers, because if we were to debate if one person's powers worked properly when they cross the threshold into the battlefield or another verse, we'd pretty much get no where in terms of discussion when it comes to ability-ability interactions.

For example, the result of that ability is still 'manipulating someone's mind' in the general sense of the word. The cause is a specific set of movements, the effect is forcing someone to have or prevent from having specific thoughts. If Alakazam only has psychic defenses, it would probably work regardless because it's not psychic, but if Alakazam resists having his mind messed with in a general sense, we'd have to compare the potency of the attack vs. strength of the resistance like we'd normally do.
 
That's the problem.

Grouping "manipulating someone's mind" to "not even losely interacting with your mind". Is not the way to go.

It'd be the same as grouping "manipulating your eyes so that you don't see your opponent" with "becoming actually invisible". As the same power. It's just not logical no matter how you try to group it. Abilities have to be grouped but only if it makes sense. Otherwise we'd have real life magicians with mind hax in the billions because they can fool ppl with their magic tricks. Just no...
 
I'm taking what you're telling me in good faith, so let me be more specific on this:

"moving in fancy ways so that you unconsciously think "yeah f him, he's not worth processing""

Is this not forcing unconcious thought or forcing you not to think in a certain way? It seems that, if it's forcing someone to think in a certain way regardless of how they'd normally think, it's manipulating someone's mind, regardless of the specific cause that's behind it.

Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm not familiar with nor do I intend to be familiar with RKnC, but just going off of your own explainations of the power, it's mind manip, with a rather odd method of activation.
 
Quoting myself above:

A simpler example. You're a 9ft tall club guard that kicks out people who come running instead of walking. Ikki comes running so that you kick him out. It's really not him doing anything at all to you. It's just him fulfilling that one requirement that makes you block him. In this case him choosing to run because he knows that you'll block him if he does.

He's not "forcing" you to do anything. He's just fullfilling some criterrias. It's like giving some random pebble mind hax for the same reason because "he slides into your unconsciousness".
 
The difference is those people aren't invisible, they aren't forcibly keeping our minds from following/tracking them if we looked at them we would be able to preceive them. That isn't what he's doing he's forcing our minds to block him out somehow, to the extent it doesn't matter if our conscious mind should register him.

at least thats how Im understanding this situation.
 
He's still not "forcing" you not to track him. You are just unable to track him.

Forcing and being unable to do something are very different.
 
Sliding into one's unconciousness forcefully sounds a lot like mindhax.

The issue is that without that ability the mind would register a human as something significant, but with the ability involved it makes them not register it. So some forkery of the mind is logically needed for the ability to work in the first place.

Maybe this is "natural" for RKnC, but we need the VS to work in a way that has both abilities working as they would normally do. In Pokemon, if someone had that exact ability, it would fall under the criteria of "stuff that Alakazam resists".
 
But I should see him, my conscious mind should be able to perceive him but the movements hes making is tricking/effecting my mind. To the extent it is literally impossible for me to precieve him, yes its taking a magicians slight of hand but its doing so in such an extreme manner I don't see how it doesn't constitute mind manip.

It's not possible to make yourself disappear completely into someones unconscious with some fancy movements, he is somehow tricking my mind into not seeing him despite the fact he should be significant enough for my subconscious to not block it out.
 
  • Facepalm*
Mind: Doesn't register things that enter into your rytim

Ikki: Enters your rythim

Mind: Yeah i won't regist him

People: MIND HAX

Dude your mind is flawed, it doesn't register some stuff. It is unable to register, ikki abusing this weakness is not messing with your mind. He's not doing anything with your mind. He just knows what that flaw is and knows what to do to avoid it.

A normal human would register, a normal human doing some fancy footwork won't register. It's in the guidelines of the mind not to register a man doing that kind of footwork.

Simple thing. You will take on anyone in a fight unless that person does a fortnite dance before fighting you, if he does you'll run away. You fight Ikki, ikki does fortnite dance, you run away. Ikki fear manip gg? Yeah legit enough.

@Pen

No, just no, him taking a thing that actually exists to make you not perceive a magicians hand and applying the same concept to his whole body doesn't turn this from feet movement to "lol reality warp".
 
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