Homelander and The Deep (The Boys TV Show) Additions

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Homelander​

Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation: He should have the same resistances as Soldier Boy, since it is constantly established in the show that Homelander is an improved version of Soldier Boy.
Self-Sustenance (Type 1): Is able to go into space (or at least "possibly Self-Sustenance" because we don't know if he can live without oxygen or if he can just hold his breath for a long time).
Enhanced Senses addition: Homelander's ability to be able to see New York from space should give him telescopic vision, and this scene possibly involves telescopic vision as well.
Martial Arts: Can hold his own against Butcher, Maeve and Soldier Boy.

The Deep​

Enhanced Senses: The Deep can swim in the Mariana Trench, which is an very dark place.
Resistance to Temperature Manipulation: The temperature in the Mariana Trench depth varies between 1 and 4 °C, and can reach up to 300°C-370 °C-

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

since it is constantly established in the show that Homelander is an improved version of Soldier Boy.

"Improved" is kinda vague and I feel like the "Notes" section under Resistance covers this, so I'm unsure. It's not like Homelander has Soldier Boy's power null-radiation blasts despite being an "improved" version of him

Self-Sustenance (Type 1): Is able to go into space

Martial Arts: Can hold his own against Butcher, Maeve and Soldier Boy.

Sure

Enhanced Senses addition: Homelander's ability to be able to see New York from space should give him telescopic vision, and this scene possibly involves telescopic vision as well.

The second scene is mostly X-ray vision. Neutral about the New York thing

Enhanced Senses: The Deep can swim in the Mariana Trench, which is an very dark place.
Resistance to Temperature Manipulation: The temperature in the Mariana Trench depth varies between 1 and 4 °C, and can reach up to 300°C-370 °C-

He doesn't need to see, especially since he mentions how it's dark, but I'd say Resistance to Cold is better since he specifically talks about it being cold and the high temperatures are only at the vents

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It's not like Homelander has Soldier Boy's power null-radiation blasts despite being an "improved" version of him

Power null blasts are thanks to the Russian experiments on Soldier Boy, it's not an ability he had from the start.

He doesn't need to see, especially since he mentions how it's dark, but I'd say Resistance to Cold is better since he specifically talks about it being cold and the high temperatures are only at the vents

Fair.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Power null blasts are thanks to the Russian experiments on Soldier Boy, it's not an ability he had from the start.

Okay, but I'm still not entirely convinced that simply being an "improved" version of Soldier Boy would mean having all the same Resistances as him

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Okay, but I'm still not entirely convinced that simply being an "improved" version of Soldier Boy would mean having all the same Resistances as him

Well, Homelander is a stronger version than Soldier Boy and is reputed to be invincible, it would be weird if he could be affected by things that Soldier Boy tanks

especially since he mentions how it's dark

Also, the fact that he mentions how cold it is shows that he was affected by this temperature btw

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Well, Homelander is a stronger version than Soldier Boy

AP

reputed to be invincible

Hyperbolic and unreliable

it would be weird if he could be affected by things that Soldier Boy tanks

I can say the same about Saitama not having Acid or Gravity Resistance whereas much weaker characters do

If Homelander had actual feats of such Resistances, I'd be more agreeable

Also, the fact that he mentions how cold it is shows that he was affected by this temperature btw

Being affected doesn't necessarily mean he can't have Resistance

 

[Excel616]

I agree with Marvel_Champion

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I can say the same about Saitama not having Acid or Gravity Resistance whereas much weaker characters do

The difference is that Homelander is the son of Soldier Boy (Ryan is Homelander's son and he has the same powers as the latter), and that Vought raised him and experimented on him to be an improved version of his father, with greater strength and new powers. It doesn't make sense that Homelander doesn't have the same resistances as Soldier Boy in this context.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Being affected doesn't necessarily mean he can't have Resistance

Resistance is precisely not being affected by an abilitie, or it is a limited resistance

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Resistance is precisely not being affected by an abilitie

Being damaged by something significantly less than someone else can still qualify for Resistance, but sure, Limited Resistance also works

he has the same powers as the latter

Doesn't have X-Ray vision. Has Rage Power and Regeneration (both of which Homelander doesn't have)

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Doesn't have X-Ray vision.

He probably has this ability, because he showed all of his father's other powers, he just still hasn't shown.

Has Rage Power and Regeneration (both of which Homelander doesn't have)

Because he never needed to use them, and they are much less established in the lore than the other abilities (Ryan's rage power could just be adrenaline due to anger like any other person irl and regeneration could be just an forgetting by the screenwriters, as often happens in films and series)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation: He should have the same resistances as Soldier Boy, since it is constantly established in the show that Homelander is an improved version of Soldier Boy.

That's not how resistances work since it's based on biology. Homelander being superior to Soldier Boy wouldn't automatically grant him the same resistances without a statement.

Self-Sustenance (Type 1): Is able to go into space (or at least "possibly Self-Sustenance" because we don't know if he can live without oxygen or if he can just hold his breath for a long time).

This is fine

Enhanced Senses addition: Homelander's ability to be able to see New York from space should give him telescopic vision, and this scene possibly involves telescopic vision as well.

Seeing New York itself is something IRL people can do. You would need to prove he was at a notably large distance for this to count.

Enhanced Senses: The Deep can swim in the Mariana Trench, which is an very dark place.
Resistance to Temperature Manipulation: The temperature in the Mariana Trench depth varies between 1 and 4 °C, and can reach up to 300°C-370 °C-

Enhanced Senses I'm iffy on, but the Temperature stuff is fine.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

That's not how resistances work since it's based on biology.

Yes, and Homelander is Soldier Boy's son and became a better, more powerful version of Soldier Boy. This wouldn't be the case if Halothane gas, sulfuric acid or the Novichok agent could affect Homelander, and The Boys wouldn't have needed Soldier Boy's power null blasts (which are very destructive) to neutralize him

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Seeing New York itself is something IRL people can do.

Wait a minute:
"View of New York City from the International Space Station"

This is a photo taken by a satellite, by the ISS, not by a human in a space suit with a camera.
I don't think Homelander was on the ISS tho

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Yes, and Homelander is Soldier Boy's son and became a better, more powerful version of Soldier Boy. This wouldn't be the case if Halothane gas, sulfuric acid or the Novichok agent could affect Homelander, and The Boys wouldn't have needed Soldier Boy's power null blasts (which are very destructive) to neutralize him

Homelander being superior to Soldier Boy wouldn't automatically grant him the same resistances without a statement.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Homelander being superior to Soldier Boy wouldn't automatically grant him the same resistances without a statement.

I'm aware of this, but the case of Homelander and Soldier Boy is a bit different:

• Homelander is Soldier Boy's biological son, and Homelander's son has the same powers as his father.
• The Boys rely solely on Soldier Boy's blasts and Temp-V to defeat Homelander, while they could also use Halothane gas and Novichok agent on Homelander, as they tried to do on Soldier Boy, to make the task simpler and less dangerous. This implies that the Boys assume that these poisons will not work on Homelander, same for sulfuric acid (which they can carry in bottles)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes, and Homelander is Soldier Boy's son and became a better, more powerful version of Soldier Boy.

Resistances aren't like strength or speed scaling. Homelander being better than Soldier Boy doesn't mean they share the same resistances since that's based entirely off of their different biology.

The most you could get here is a possibly statistic in my view.

This is a photo taken by a satellite, by the ISS, not by a human in a space suit with a camera.

People on the ISS can see New York from space and that's an image of what they see. Seeing a city from space isn't a feat unless you see details or if you're really far away. You would need to prove either for Homelander to get telescopic vision.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The most you could get here is a possibly statistic in my view

I'm fine with that.

People on the ISS can see New York from space and that's an image of what they see.

Did they see it with their naked eyes or with a telescope or something?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Did they see it with their naked eyes

Yes

Shuttle astronauts can see highways, airports, dams and even large vehicles from an Earth orbit that is about 135 miles (217 kilometers) high. Cities are clearly distinct from surrounding countryside, and that's true even from the higher perch of the International Space Station, which circles the planet at about 250 miles (400 kilometers) up.

"You can see an awful lot from space," says astronaut Ed Lu, the science officer of Expedition Seven aboard the station. "You can see the pyramids from space, especially with a pair of binoculars. They are a little difficult to pick out with just your eyes."

Egyptian pyramids have been photographed from space several times with standard digital cameras and high-powered lenses. The largest pyramid at Giza, on the outskirts of Cairo, is 745 feet (227 meters) wide and 449 feet (137 meters) tall.

"With binoculars you can see an awful lot of things," Lu wrote via e-mail in fielding a question from an Earthbound space fan. "You can see roads. You can see harbors. You can even see ships; very large tankers on the ocean we can see using the binoculars."

There are some surprises, too.

"You can see airplane contrails, and occasionally at the end of an airplane contrail, you will see a glint of sunlight off the airplane," Lu says. "And very occasionally, you do see other satellites go by. It is kind of a neat thing to see."

Seeing a city in space is not a notable feat unless you're really far away or are seeing absurd details like people moving around.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It seems the main argument for Homelander having the same resistances as Soldier Boy is Ryan having all Homelander's abilities, although it seems to me that he doesn't have all of them. What's more, Soldier Boy has been altered so we don't know what abilities he gained from that, and if we ignore that Homelander lacks Soldier Boy's power null. I can see the reasoning behind it, but it seems too inconclusive to scale all their abilities that way.

Also, can we really say Homelander can do martial arts? I have done several martial arts, and Homelander was still clearly unskilled when he fought Soldier Boy and Butcher. And Maeve almost beat him despite his AP and speed advantage, so if anything that's an anti-feat for his skill.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Also, can we really say Homelander can do martial arts? I have done several martial arts, and Homelander was still clearly unskilled when he fought Soldier Boy and Butcher. And Maeve almost beat him despite his AP and speed advantage, so if anything that's an anti-feat for his skill.

Homelander only had AP advantage against Maeve, Butcher and Soldier Boy, and he clearly showed skill in H2H against them

although it seems to me that he doesn't have all of them

He only hasn't shown X-Ray Vision yet

, Soldier Boy has been altered so we don't know what abilities he gained from that

He only gained the radioactive blasts, his resistances he already had from the start

I can see the reasoning behind it, but it seems too inconclusive to scale all their abilities that way.

But it's enough for a "possibly"

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation: He should have the same resistances as Soldier Boy, since it is constantly established in the show that Homelander is an improved version of Soldier Boy.

Disagree with this for reasons already stated.

Martial Arts: Can hold his own against Butcher, Maeve and Soldier Boy.

No idea why that would be martial arts.

Self-Sustenance (Type 1): Is able to go into space (or at least "possibly Self-Sustenance" because we don't know if he can live without oxygen or if he can just hold his breath for a long time).

Agree with a possibly.

Resistance to Temperature Manipulation: The temperature in the Mariana Trench depth varies between 1 and 4 °C, and can reach up to 300°C-370 °C-

Sounds more like cold resistance.

Enhanced Senses: The Deep can swim in the Mariana Trench, which is an very dark place.

A possibly would be adequate.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

No idea why that would be martial arts.

Because Soldier Boy, Butcher and Maeve are skilled fighters, and Homelander showed a decent level of skill against them

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Homelander should also get Rage Power via this

 

[Random-Helper323]

Because Soldier Boy, Butcher and Maeve are skilled fighters, and Homelander showed a decent level of skill against them

Soldier Boy only ever bullied people the same way Homelander did, and never showed much skill.

Maeve almost beat him despite a large AP gap. That's an anti-feat. And even her skills are only okay. Let's not pretend she's Wonder Woman just because she improvised how to wield an arming sword with two hands and trained to swing it around an empty room.

Butcher isn't that skilled either, honestly. We've seen him have a fistfight and swing a crowbar. His fistfight with Translucent seems like an okay demonstration, but honestly, Butcher still wasn't that skilled. He couldn't counter the leg sweep, stood tall and with incorrect balance and no ability to shift stance which is why he was so easy to knock over, didn't recover from hitting the floor, never attempted a double leg take down which would have checked that invisibility, and so on. Butcher is more of a brawler than a martial artist.

And in all seriousness, show me Homelander performing any martial arts move. A take down, a grapple, a punch that looks skilled, a balanced kick, anything. Even a properly set up defence when he was being hit would be something. His clumsy punches against Butcher and company are not examples of this, nor is the man sandwich they all formed together while fighting.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Soldier Boy only ever bullied people the same way Homelander did, and never showed much skill.

Soldier Boy was a soldier, so he did military training.

Maeve almost beat him despite a large AP gap. That's an anti-feat. And even her skills are only okay. Let's not pretend she's Wonder Woman just because she improvised how to wield an arming sword with two hands and trained to swing it around an empty room.

Maeve constantly trains in combat against several men at the same time and can dodge attacks that come from a blindspot, she is clearly skilled.

His fistfight with Translucent seems like an okay demonstration, but honestly

Butcher is more of a brawler than a martial artist

And all that is enough for him to have H2H skill in his profile (something he already has, like Soldier Boy and Maeve)
You don't have to have a super advanced fighting style like in kung fu movies to be a skilled fighter, being a good street fighter is enough. Butcher fought often in his youth and was a former member of the SAS and CIA

And in all seriousness, show me Homelander performing any martial arts move. A take down, a grapple, a punch that looks skilled, a balanced kick, anything. Even a properly set up defence when he was being hit would be something. His clumsy punches against Butcher and company are not examples of this, nor is the man sandwich they all formed together while fighting.

These two passages show very clearly that Homelander has a good level of skill in H2H, and even these passages
The average untrained person would not be able to do what Homelander (and even Butcher and Soldier Boy) do in these videos.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The only one who is eligible to get martial arts is Maeve. None of the Bucher, Homelander or Soldier Boy deserve it as they are just brutes.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

None of the Bucher, Homelander or Soldier Boy deserve it as they are just brutes.

They clearly deserve it as I have just proven. You can be a brute and be a skilled fighter

 

[Random-Helper323]

Soldier Boy was a soldier, so he did military training.

Did he? He was a super all along.

Maeve constantly trains in combat against several men at the same time and can dodge attacks that come from a blindspot, she is clearly skilled.

If I trained with several frail old ladies with walking frames, it would be worth very little.

And all that is enough for him to have H2H skill in his profile (something he already has, like Soldier Boy and Maeve)

You skipped the entirety of my analysis of his fighting style, but he's not skilled enough to call a martial artist.

You don't have to have a super advanced fighting style like in kung fu movies to be a skilled fighter, being a good street fighter is enough. Butcher fought often in his youth and was a former member of the SAS and CIA

You are pushing for martial arts added to Homelander's page. That requires martial art skill or equivalent.

 

[Random-Helper323]

These two passages show very clearly that Homelander has a good level of skill in H2H, and even these passages. The average untrained person would not be able to do what Homelander (and even Butcher and Soldier Boy) do in these videos.

Homelander throwing clumsy haymakers, blocking Maeve's own almost as clumsy haymaker, and Homelander attempting to gouge Maeve's eye and strangle Butcher. This isn't skill; haymakers are the punches you throw when you don't know how to punch, and his grabbing attacks are simply using his superior strength. Why do you think Maeve's punch was so easy to block? It's the same reason why holding a knife in a reverse grip and stabbing in a downward swinging motion is a good way to get your butt kicked.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah there ain't any martial arts here.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

If I trained with several frail old ladies with walking frames, it would be worth very little

But it's not old ladies that Maeve faces during her training, and the guys she faces attack her at the same time and she can still handle them while holding back. And the fact that she dodges an attack coming from a blindspot proves that she is skilled.

You skipped the entirety of my analysis of his fighting style, but he's not skilled enough to call a martial artist.

Because his fight against Translucent is enough to qualify him as a skilled H2H fighter, the same for his fight against Homelander and Soldier Boy and his past. The fact that he does not do a particular technique against Translucent does not make him an unskilled fighter.

You are pushing for martial arts added to Homelander's page. That requires martial art skill or equivalent.

I literally showed specific passages that prove that Homelander has combat skills.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Homelander throwing clumsy haymakers, blocking Maeve's own almost as clumsy haymaker, and Homelander attempting to gouge Maeve's eye and strangle Butcher.

Just like certain actors who play boxers and swordsmen in films and series and who perform the techniques poorly because they are not boxers or swordsmen irl, but their characters are. It would be like saying that Jaime Lannister is a poor swordsman in GOT lore because the actor executes sword strikes poorly.
The way Homelander fights clearly suggests that he is skilled (no average untrained person could fight that accurately), the fact that he executes these techniques poorly is not canon in the lore, it's just because of the actor

 

[Random-Helper323]

Just like certain actors who play boxers and swordsmen in films and series and who perform the techniques poorly because they are not boxers or swordsmen irl, but their characters are. It would be like saying that Jaime Lannister is a poor swordsman in GOT lore because the actor executes sword strikes poorly.
The way Homelander fights clearly suggests that he is skilled (no average untrained person could fight that accurately), the fact that he executes these techniques poorly is not canon in the lore, it's just because of the actor

We need proof. You presented a fight scene with clumsy haymakers reminiscent of how a gorilla fights as visual proof of his skill, and named canon fights with no skill needed as proof.

But it's not old ladies that Maeve faces during her training, and the guys she faces attack her at the same time and she can still handle them while holding back. And the fact that she dodges an attack coming from a blindspot proves that she is skilled.

I'm saying the AP gap is so massive she has them stumped...

Because his fight against Translucent is enough to qualify him as a skilled H2H fighter, the same for his fight against Homelander and Soldier Boy and his past. The fact that he does not do a particular technique against Translucent does not make him an unskilled fighter.

More the fact that he displays a clear inability to handle the leg sweep. I myself know how to land when thrown down and how to stay standing after a leg attack. Butcher proved he doesn't. Even if he didn't it wouldn't qualify for martial arts.

I literally showed specific passages that prove that Homelander has combat skills.

You showed clumsy haymakers that reminded me of a five-year old.

Seriously, the visual evidence all points to a lack of skill (and Karl Urban was in LOTR where the actors all had to learn to fight, so we can't even blame the actors, not that it would negate the visual evidence if we could), the backgrounds prove nothing and even imply a lack of skill, and no statement exists concerning skill.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

We need proof. You presented a fight scene with clumsy haymakers reminiscent of how a gorilla fights as visual proof of his skill, and named canon fights with no skill needed as proof.

But even untrained people couldn't fight like that, and what Homelander shows is better than gorilla fights. It just shows that in the lore there is an intention for Homelander to be a decent fighter.

I'm saying the AP gap is so massive she has them stumped...

Maeve mainly uses the skill here, not the AP, because otherwise she would kill her training partners with a single blow (and so there would be no point in her training)

More the fact that he displays a clear inability to handle the leg sweep. I myself know how to land when thrown down and how to stay standing after a leg attack. Butcher proved he doesn't. Even if he didn't it wouldn't qualify for martial arts.

And I'm going to reiterate the same argument I used for Homelander, it all depends on the skill of the actor and director irl. Butcher was trained by the CIA and the SAS, so he is a good H2H fighter by default

You showed clumsy haymakers that reminded me of a five-year old.

So show me some videos of random people fighting like this in a real fight

(and Karl Urban was in LOTR where the actors all had to learn to fight, so we can't even blame the actors, not that it would negate the visual evidence if we could)

In LOTR they fight with swords, in The Boys they fight with their bare hands. You can be a professional boxer but have no knowledge of swordmanship, and vice versa.

the backgrounds prove nothing and even imply a lack of skill

Well, Vought made him face big men who could physically overpower him when he was a child.

and no statement exists concerning skill.

He has feats where he faces skilled fighters

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Well, Vought made him face big men who could physically overpower him when he was a child.

How do we know he wasn't just holding back because he didn't want to kill them which is what's implied.

Yeah I only see Maeve barely getting Martial arts.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

How do we know he wasn't just holding back because he didn't want to kill them

He was a scared child, he had no reason to hold back and it's absolutely not implied that he did so.

 

[Random-Helper323]

But even untrained people couldn't fight like that, and what Homelander shows is better than gorilla fights. It just shows that in the lore there is an intention for Homelander to be a decent fighter.

No, it doesn't. It shows Homelander repeatedly using a style of punch that only an unskilled fighter would use, because a skilled fighter would know that it is so ineffective as to put you at a disadvantage just by using it. A haymaker gives prior warning, is slower, is too easy to block, wastes energy, leaves you open to a counter both during and after, and risks upsetting your balance. Can risk breaking your wrist too.

Maeve mainly uses the skill here, not the AP, because otherwise she would kill her training partners with a single blow (and so there would be no point in her training)

Isn't she generally above all of them in stats?

And I'm going to reiterate the same argument I used for Homelander, it all depends on the skill of the actor and director irl.

The writer and director scripted that Butcher couldn't counter that leg sweep.

Butcher was trained by the CIA and the SAS, so he is a good H2H fighter by default

Many of those services have more variety to their levels of training, if I'm not mistaken. And CIA's job is mostly underhanded stuff, not physical combat.

So show me some videos of random people fighting like this in a real fight

I'd have to look up drunken bar brawls, and maybe playground fights. You wouldn't see it in the UFC.

In LOTR they fight with swords, in The Boys they fight with their bare hands. You can be a professional boxer but have no knowledge of swordmanship, and vice versa.

Lot more transferable than you might think, but whatever.

Well, Vought made him face big men who could physically overpower him when he was a child.

I'll check it in a sec...

He has feats where he faces skilled fighters

Who aren't all that skilled and who he beats via a notable AP gap.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

No, it doesn't. It shows Homelander repeatedly using a style of punch that only an unskilled fighter would use, because a skilled fighter would know that it is so ineffective as to put you at a disadvantage just by using it. A haymaker gives prior warning, is slower, is too easy to block, wastes energy, leaves you open to a counter both during and after, and risks upsetting your balance. Can risk breaking your wrist too.

The actor and director simply don't know that, which is why it's poorly done. The fact that they did this kind of choreography for the fight literally proves that it is an intention of the show to make Homelander, Maeve, Soldier Boy and Bu

Many of those services have more variety to their levels of training, if I'm not mistaken. And CIA's job is mostly underhanded stuff, not physical combat.

tcher skilled fighters.
Like in literally all films and series.

Isn't she generally above all of them in stats?

Being faster doesn't protect you from an attack coming from a blindspot, but Maeve can dodge that effortlessly. I've already talked about strength.

The writer and director scripted that Butcher couldn't counter that leg sweep.

Which doesn't mean anything. Lots of characters in fiction can be tricked or affected by attacks that people irl can counter. And if Butcher is more of a boxer in his fighting style, he is not necessarily supposed to know how to counter a technique done with a leg

Many of those services have more variety to their levels of training, if I'm not mistaken.

Butcher was a soldier

You wouldn't see it in the UFC

Most fight choreography in films can't be done in real fights, because it's too clean, it's not messy. If directors take the trouble to choreograph the fights, whether the blows are well executed or not, it is to show that their characters are skilled fighters. It's that simple.

who he beats via a notable AP gap.

"notable."
Soldier boy is described as almost as strong as Homelander, and this is also the case for Butcher and Maeve post-training.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

My opinion about martial arts is that just like some of the other "mastery abilities" has been abused, giving vehicle mastery over having a driver licence was ridiculous, in this case it doesnt seem like Homelander has much of martial arts he uses pure strenght maybe he learned how to punch or because of being in many fights he learned a thing or 2 but dont think its enough to call it martial arts, for me I think only those who were stated or showed to have archieved some relevant level of martial arts like a "black belt" or specifically showed to be trainned in martial arts for years showed get it maybe even some very very experienced fighters who constantly face enemies on their level. Its not homelanders case during the fight with Queen Maeve he seemed to be "losing" because of the really difference in skill between them and Homelander only won by abusing his superior strenght not by skill.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The actor and director simply don't know that, which is why it's poorly done. The fact that they did this kind of choreography for the fight literally proves that it is an intention of the show to make Homelander, Maeve, Soldier Boy and Butcher skilled fighters. Like in literally all films and series.

None of this proves that Homelander was intended to be a skilled fighter. Your entire argument rests on Butcher being a soldier and Maeve being skilled, and visual evidence from fight scenes where Homelander fights like a five-year old. In short, only Butcher being a soldier (which still doesn't qualify for martial arts on its own), and Maeve being skilled holds any value at all. And Maeve almost beat Homelander despite an AP gap. None of this makes Homelander a skilled fighter, and your constant references to the intent of the writers and directors is seemingly your own headcanon.

Which doesn't mean anything. Lots of characters in fiction can be tricked or affected by attacks that people irl can counter. And if Butcher is more of a boxer in his fighting style, he is not necessarily supposed to know how to counter a technique done with a leg

Not on its own, but you're attempting to say Homelander has martial arts based on these very fight scenes which show him fighting like an angry drunk.

Butcher was a soldier

Not all soldiers are taught martial arts. If he was marines or special forces, that would be different.

Most fight choreography in films can't be done in real fights, because it's too clean, it's not messy. If directors take the trouble to choreograph the fights, whether the blows are well executed or not, it is to show that their characters are skilled fighters. It's that simple

A fight scene being scripted and choreographed doesn't automatically mean the characters are good fighters.

"notable."
Soldier boy is described as almost as strong as Homelander, and this is also the case for Butcher and Maeve post-training.

How much difference is in an almost? Enough to decisively win with sheer strength and flight power alone? Remember that Homelander was always in a league all his own in his verse, to the point where being hit by him and not splattering was an extreme rarity.

Honestly, this is simple. For Homelander to have martial arts, you need either a statement that he has such skills (there isn't one, and you've assumed the writers' intent instead), a scene where he visibly uses those skills (moves that belong in kindergarten don't qualify, no matter how much they're choreographed and scripted), or viable proof of facing enemies who had martial arts themselves (meaning they themselves satisfy the above criteria) and could not be beaten without matching their skill, i.e, with superior speed or power, or other advantages which could overcome that skill advantage.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

and visual evidence from fight scenes where Homelander fights like a five-year old.

And then you say I'm doing headcanon...

None of this makes Homelander a skilled fighter, and your constant references to the intent of the writers and directors is seemingly your own headcanon.

No. There is no reason for a director to do fight choreography (twice) to a character who has no skills, it just doesn't make sense.

And Maeve almost beat Homelander despite an AP gap

Homelander literally managed to stand up to her temporarily in terms of skills, as I have already shown

Not all soldiers are taught martial arts. If he was marines or special forces, that would be different.

He was in the SAS, aka the Special Air Force, a special forces unit of the British Army.

A fight scene being scripted and choreographed doesn't automatically mean the characters are good fighters.

Yes, that automatically means that the characters are good fighters.

How much difference is in an almost?

Enough to bruise him and make him bleed.

a scene where he visibly uses those skills (moves that belong in kindergarten don't qualify, no matter how much they're choreographed and scripted)

Choreographed fights are more than enough proof, that's why the director bothers to make them, to show the talent of their characters

or viable proof of facing enemies who had martial arts themselves (meaning they themselves satisfy the above criteria)

Soldier boy, Queen Maeve, Billy Butcher

and could not be beaten without matching their skill, i.e, with superior speed or power, or other advantages which could overcome that skill advantage.

The only advantage Homelander has over the three characters mentioned above is strength, and the difference isn't huge.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

giving vehicle mastery over having a driver licence was ridiculous

I totally agree with that, but it doesn't apply to Homelander.
Blocking two punches as easily and precisely as Homelander did against Maeve is not something the average person can do without training in a fight.

 

[Random-Helper323]

And then you say I'm doing headcanon...

It's not a headcanon to look at a clumsy haymaker and recognise that that's what it is.

No. There is no reason for a director to do fight choreography (twice) to a character who has no skills, it just doesn't make sense.

Yes, that automatically means that the characters are good fighters.

Choreographed fights are more than enough proof, that's why the director bothers to make them, to show the talent of their characters

It literally only means the fight is scripted. Why does a fight scene being scripted and planned prove a high level of fighting skill?

Homelander literally managed to stand up to her temporarily in terms of skills, as I have already shown

He was shown attempting to crush her with his superior strength. Only moment of skill clashing was blocking a punch that was yet another clumsy haymaker; at that angle the punch was begging to be blocked.

He was in the SAS, aka the Special Air Force, a special forces unit of the British Army.

I should probably clarify, that I meant special forces in the sense of fighting directly. The air force tend to be pilots and gunners rather than direct fighters.

Enough to bruise him and make him bleed.

Still hard to say how close that is, to be honest. Especially when he was able to match three of them at once with strength. Only the bruises, which were inflicted by Butcher, Soldier Boy and Huey, indicate directly comparable power.

Soldier boy, Queen Maeve, Billy Butcher

You have yet to prove martial arts for Butcher or Soldier Boy. Neither of them has shown the moves or has any statement to prove it. Even Maeve's moves didn't show much special skill, and other than that all we have with her is established training history. And conveniently, she also happens to be the one we know, by her own admissions, is a fair bit weaker than Homelander.

The only advantage Homelander has over the three characters mentioned above is strength, and the difference isn't huge.

Only Maeve satisfies martial arts criteria, and only barely, and all we have with her is that her hardest hit to his nose managed to make it bleed. Not break it, just a small nosebleed. That actually also proves Homelander had a power advantage. What's more, his flight, X-ray vision and heat vision give him some advantages too.

Look, I think both of us are sick of this, but honestly, you're attempting to give Homelander martial arts for blocking one punch from a character we know is less powerful than him, for being shown throwing visibly unskilled punches, for fighting an air force guy and a guy whose skills are unknown, neither of whom has displayed martial art skill of their own, and now you're literally trying to say that any character who has a scripted fight scene qualifies for high skill and martial arts.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

and now you're literally trying to say that any character who has a scripted fight scene qualifies for high skill and martial arts.

who has a choregraphed fight scene*
but in any case if we don't agree on that there's no point in continuing the debate, it's better to wait for other opinions

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Homelander should also get Rage Power via this

Bump

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, disagree on the resistance and martial arts thing based on what has been debated here, rest i'm inclined to agree

 

[Random-Helper323]

who has a choregraphed fight scene*
but in any case if we don't agree on that there's no point in continuing the debate, it's better to wait for other opinions

Here is the Wikipedia page on Choreography.

It is literally the name of the process for scripting and planning out scenes and the movements therein. Not a single thing in the process or the word meaning has anything to do with character skill in and of itself. It can demonstrate skill via actually showing it in the fight scene, but it doesn't have anything to do with character skill outside of what the resulting scene shows.

With that in mind, will you please stop playing word games in an attempt to pretend the word means something outside of its definition and even the process it describes?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Only Maeve satisfies martial arts criteria, and only barely

You should make a thread to remove Martial Arts from Butcher and Soldier Boy profiles tho

With that in mind, will you please stop playing word games in an attempt to pretend the word means something outside of its definition and even the process it describes?

A advanced choreographed fight scene (ex: Homelander's fights) is scripted yes, but a scripted scene is not necessarily a advanced choreographed fight scene

In any case, I think I'm starting to agree with you for the case of Homelander (that it's thanks to his AP and his speed), but not yet for that of Butcher and Soldier Boy.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Actually, the whole OP is pretty suspect at best.

The resistances are a possibility, but it's hard to know what Soldier Boy and Homelander share. The fact that Ryan has yet to show X-ray vision does set a precedent for not all powers always being inherited. I am inclined to think the poison at least is viable though, since no-one seems to think poisoning Homelander will work even though they all want him dead.

And the self-sustenance is possibly just holding breath. It's really hard to be sure.

Martial arts is baseless. The OP has attempted to argue that the fight scenes visually showed great martial art skill only for the fight scenes to resemble kindergarten fights, has assumed the directors and writers must have intended Homelander to be a skilled martial artist, and is now insisting that the mere presence of choreography and scripted fight scenes (literally the same thing as each other, by the way) always proves the fighters are skilled martial artists. By that logic literally every fight scene ever made in a visual medium (film, TV, theatre, games, etc.) proves those characters have martial arts skill, even the drunken bar brawls in college movies and school yard fights in kid's movies.

For an example, the fourth American Pie, the Reunion, features a clearly scripted fight scene between the five main characters and some punks. This scene includes Finch and Jim being clumsy and hopeless the entire time. But the scene was indeed choreographed. By the logic of the OP, Jim and Finch, clumsy and hopeless the entire time, with Finch in particular fighting as well as the new kid getting the swirlies in the toilets, are both automatically skilled martial artists.

 

[Random-Helper323]

You should make a thread to remove Martial Arts from Butcher and Soldier Boy profiles tho


A advanced choreographed fight scene (ex: Homelander's fights) is scripted yes, but a scripted scene is not necessarily a advanced choreographed fight scene

I realise this makes sense to you, but this is why. In your mind you have constructed a far more advanced perception of the scene than can be conveyed with words. Using the word advanced similarly proves nothing, especially when the moves Homelander displays don't demonstrate any skill.

Now honestly, leaving aside Soldier Boy, Butcher probably does qualify as a capable brawler, but not exactly a martial artist. Many characters get martial arts for no solid reason, and it is a problem on the Wiki.

In any case, I think I'm starting to agree with you for the case of Homelander (that it's thanks to his AP and his speed), but not yet for that of Butcher and Soldier Boy.

Butcher being an adept brawler is indeed true, but Soldier Boy is much like Homelander; used to being invincible.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The resistances are a possibility, but it's hard to know what Soldier Boy and Homelander share. The fact that Ryan has yet to show X-ray vision does set a precedent for not all powers always being inherited. I am inclined to think the poison at least is viable though, since no-one seems to think poisoning Homelander will work even though they all want him dead.

And the self-sustenance is possibly just holding breath. It's really hard to be sure.

So "Possibly Resistances to..." and "Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control" in the Homelander profile, I don't see the problem

proves those characters have martial arts skill, even the drunken bar brawls in college movies and school yard fights in kid's movies.

If these scenes are done in the same way as those of Homelander, Soldier boy, Butcher and Maeve, well yes that's enough for Martial Arts. The latter's fights are not as messy as drunken fights, they are precise and advanced, it's not just a mess

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with the above points that disagree with Martial Arts for Homelander

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

especially when the moves Homelander displays don't demonstrate any skill.

For the case of Homelander it is surely just thanks to his comparable speed and superior strength yes, but if it was another character not as strong and fast as him, it would be skill (drunk people or kids in a school don't fight like that lol, I don't know where you saw that)

 

[AThe1412]

I agree with Maeve and Butcher (And possibly Soldier Boy) having Martial Arts because they are, more or less, trained individuals. Homelander though? Hell no. That would be the equivalent of saying that MCU She-Hulk has Martial Arts... Oh no, don't even think about it!

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I dont remember exacly if the serie had that too but in the comics i remember Soldier boy and his "crew" being sent to the army without any trainning which caused them to a huge battle that killed most of them, I think something similar happened in the serie although they didnt actually died

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I dont remember exacly if the serie had that too but in the comics i remember Soldier boy and his "crew" being sent to the army without any trainning which caused them to a huge battle that killed most of them, I think something similar happened in the serie although they didnt actually died

They lacked discipline yes

 

[Random-Helper323]

So "Possibly Resistances to..." and "Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control" in the Homelander profile, I don't see the problem

Lung capacity is fine. A guy with super durability and high speed flight isn't going to have fragile lungs. If he stayed longer in space that would be self-sustenance.

If these scenes are done in the same way as those of Homelander, Soldier boy, Butcher and Maeve, well yes that's enough for Martial Arts. The latter's fights are not as messy as drunken fights, they are precise and advanced, it's not just a mess

For the case of Homelander it is surely just thanks to his comparable speed and superior strength yes, but if it was another character not as strong and fast as him, it would be skill (drunk people or kids in a school don't fight like that lol, I don't know where you saw that)

Why are we pretending Homelander's moves in the fight demonstrated skill? You have no idea how much of a headache I'm getting here; you're pointing at clumsy haymakers, exactly the type of punches someone throws when they don't know how to punch, and trying to tell me that those punches are highly skilled. In fact, they're exactly the kind of punch that drunks are generally associated with throwing, and exactly the worst punch you can throw. The only moment where Homelander did anything right was blocking Maeve's haymaker, and with his stat advantage that tells us little.

I have done multiple martial arts IRL. My teachers are professional fighters who have competed on a world stage, and I was taught knife fighting by a reformed criminal who was taught to kill by a leader of a South African Zulu gang.

In short, I know what I'm talking about, so it's giving me a headache that could probably register on a Richter scale having you pointing to clumsy as shit haymakers and attempting to tell me that that garbage qualifies as skilled martial arts practice, and having you disregard the issues no matter how many different ways I present them to you. The fact that you keep moving the goalpost back and forth between "choreography always equals martial art skill" and "those fight scenes show real martial art skill" is just the icing on the cake. I realise that in your mind this makes sense, because in truth people think in images and complex information rather than just words, but really, I can tell you with total confidence, Homelander's fight scene displayed a lack of skill, not an abundance of it.

---

Update: okay, I've vented my headache. Someone like me who takes martial arts seriously being told to believe clumsy haymakers qualify as martial arts is very annoying. I've vented the slow steam build up, we can move on.

Short version: The argument for martial arts hinges on leaping back and forth between assuming the writers intend for Homelander to be skilled, arguing that all choreography that fulfils some unspecified criteria that only the OP knows about automatically proves martial art skill, and arguing that the fight scenes which are filled with only badly unskilled moves visibly demonstrate martial art skill.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So here is what I propose for the Homelander:

• Possibly Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Is Soldier Boy's biological son so he may share the same resistances as him)
• Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)
• Rage Power (Escaped from Butcher, Soldier Boy and Hughie's grasp after becoming enraged)

And for The Deep:

- Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

Thoughts ?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

• Possibly Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Is Soldier Boy's biological son so he may share the same resistances as him)

I'm still in disagreement unless Homelander has actual Resistance feats

Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)

And for The Deep:

- Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

Sure

Rage Power (Escaped from Butcher, Soldier Boy and Hughie's grasp after becoming enraged)

Neutral

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I never really understood "Rage power" Wouldnt basically everyone get it since adrenaline increases strenght when its released? I thought that power is more related to superhuman amps beyond anything normal or specifically become more powerful because of anger.
Homelander probably just become slightly stronger because of adrenaline of fear and anger of being hurt.

 

[Random-Helper323]

So here is what I propose for the Homelander:

• Possibly Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Is Soldier Boy's biological son so he may share the same resistances as him)

This could very well be true, but we can't really be sure yet.

• Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)

There's talk of a space survival ability being added to the Wiki, which might solve this issue.

• Rage Power (Escaped from Butcher, Soldier Boy and Hughie's grasp after becoming enraged)

Isn't rage power for characters like Gohan whose rage can grant them large power boosts? Guess that becomes kind of subjective, doesn't it?

And for The Deep:

- Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

This is fine. Feeling it isn't all that important; it's the fact that he was able to handle it that's key. The pressure in the Mariana Trench probably warrants some consideration too. Only known vertebrate that can dive that deep and come back up without dying is the sperm whale.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Isn't rage power for characters like Gohan whose rage can grant them large power boosts?

Fair

 

[Qawsedf234]

Rage power is for stuff like Gohan or the Hulk, where rage/anger is a power that actively increases other statistics. Just getting angry wouldn't be enough to qualify, a notable boost is required.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)

Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

Ok so only this is accepted ?

 

[Random-Helper323]

The cold resistance is blatant. The space stuff can probably be body control at the moment, possibly self-sustenance with more context, and the space survival ability could come into play later.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I'm still in disagreement unless Homelander has actual Resistance feats

Now that I think about it, Homelander could get Radiation and Heat Resistance since he survived the vacuum of space and shook off Temp-V Butcher's heat vision. But that's pretty much as far as I will agree to, until I can think of other feats

Ok so only this is accepted ?

So far, yes

 

[Random-Helper323]

So for Homelander, heat and cosmic radiation resistance, and lung capacity/body control (possibly self-sustenance).

For the Deep, resistance to cold. Any thoughts on the resistance to pressure he would need in the Mariana Trench?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Homelander could get Radiation and Heat Resistance

Wait, why heat ?

Any thoughts on the resistance to pressure he would need in the Mariana Trench?

It's already included in his profile as a durability feat

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Wait, why heat ?

shook off Temp-V Butcher's heat vision

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Resistance to radiation in space is after a prolonged period I guess

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

and shook off Temp-V Butcher's heat vision

We only see Homelander's outfit burning, we don't really know if it affected Homelander's skin or not

 

[Cropfist]

Yeah, disagree with resistances and martial arts (this isn't Dragon Ball...)

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Only Radiation Resistance via surviving in space then

 

[Random-Helper323]

It seems some staff are working on a space survival page which will likely be relevant to this discussion when it's made.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Ok so can I apply the additions?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Ok so can I apply the additions?

Whatever was accepted, sure

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This thread can be closed