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Guidelines regarding verses without an english translation (Staff only)

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SamanPatou

SamanPatou

VS Battles
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Premise: I made this thread "staff only" on Ant's suggestion regarding the question itself, since I asked him about it.

Keeping it short, there are no rules or guidelines that explain what should be done with comics or else that don't or barely have english translations.

For example, making a blog or something where hosting self-made translations of each scan, line etc..., and maybe summarizations of wider arguments.
Since english is the main language of the wiki, it would be weird to have untranslated material on the pages.

I also know that there are profiles and verses from chinese-only novels and other things in a similar situation, so I'm curious to know what the supporters did about this issue.
 
Anything that doesn't have an English translation (fanmade or not) should only be covered if there is an active supporter that can read and translate the original language to a reasonable extent (more than just machine translation), which is willing to provide quotes & scans together with their translations.
For particularly controversial (e.g. very high-tier) characters the existence of an full English translation should IMO be a requirement.
For works that will receive an English translation (in any form) in the foreseeable future, they should ideally only be covered to the translated point, even if people that can read the original language exist. However, if they already exist at the time such a translation becomes known to happen deletion isn't necessary.

Scans in a foreign language shouldn't be put on pages. Instead, there should be blogs or quotes on the page listing the original text and the proposed translation. I would suggest to make it a requirement to type out the text of scans in the original language as well, so that a basic check of the translation via a machine translation is possible.
 
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Since the requirement for a page is to be in English, having a source without a widespread or at least unreliable means of fact checking need to be limited or disallowed. If the people can't provide the original text or scans of them to be checked, they shouldn't be allowed in my view.
 
I also think it makes sense, and I agree it should be added.

Just a thing, does
For particularly controversial (e.g. very high-tier) characters the existence of an English translation should IMO be a requirement.
refer to official translations, or even fanmade ones can be accepted? (with the original source and text included).
 
SamanPatou said:
Just a thing, does
For particularly controversial (e.g. very high-tier) characters the existence of an English translation should IMO be a requirement.
refer to official translations, or even fanmade ones can be accepted? (with the original source and text included).
Click to expand...
Full fanmade ones are ok in my book. Unless maybe they're complete garbage.
 
Pretty much agree with this, have always not liked using raws, when a translation would eventually get to the same point.

It's just impatient, the only cases where i am fine with is if it's supporting evidence to things already translated, or translations don't exist, and someone can make translations better than the machine translation.
 
I pretty much agree with DontTalkDT. Also Sera wanted it to be a strict rule that "Overtly higher tiered verses" that lack an official English translation shouldn't be allowed. Since a lot of translations could be taken out of context, and there's often a lot of complaints when we have verses reach 1-A based on a multitude of flowery dialogue that sounds hyperbolic in nature that often confuses English native readers.

Although, Fanmade translations are often considered more reliable than officially published works, so I'm okay with using Fanmade sources if they're made by people who are very fluent with translations.
 
I'd honestly just rather not host untranslated verses. They're kind of impossible to fact check if only a few members on the site know the language. They could very easily potentially start being misleading about shit and nobody would ever know until another speaker just happens to hop on.

I think enacting this may cause some issues for masada stuff, since iirc a lot of the wacky shit is from stuff that's never translated.
 
That would mean deleting already established things such as Ergenverse and such, because afaik there are no official translation, but Zara and other users have out a lot of effort in them.
Also, maybe there's more stuff from verse which uses not officialy translated material, and that would have been deleted too.

DontTalk proposal on typing the original text, even just to allow some sort of check through a machine, should cover it.
Also, some languages are generally easier to translate, or to find knowledgeable users.

And I think it would be a general shame, to exclude potential verses for people who are willing to follow the requirements (including me)
 
SamanPatou said:
That would mean deleting already established things such as Ergenverse and such, because afaik there are no official translation, but Zara and other users have out a lot of effort in them.
Also, maybe there's more stuff from verse which uses not officialy translated material, and that would have been deleted too.

DontTalk proposal on typing the original text, even just to allow some sort of check through a machine, should cover it.
Also, some languages are generally easier to translate, or to find knowledgeable users.

And I think it would be a general shame, to exclude potential verses for people who are willing to follow the requirements (including me)
Click to expand...
I know I'm not staff and feel free to delete this but Ergenverse is officially translated. Only the latest book has untranslated chapters currently. In fact, most of the Chinese novels here have been translated.
 
There's no need to delete your message, both of you gave useful contribuitions, and also thank you.
But my point stands, if any other verse has not been translated, but the supporters are willing to provide the means to prove their points (those being text, scans, explanations, official or fandmade translations etc.) I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed at all.
 
SamanPatou said:
There's no need to delete your message, both of you gave useful contribuitions, and also thank you.
But my point stands, if any other verse has not been translated, but the supporters are willing to provide the means to prove their points (those being text, scans, explanations, official or fandmade translations etc.) I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed at all.
Click to expand...
No problem.

I think the main issue is how only those supporters and the already few speakers can verify if what's said is true. This can become an issue when a verse is very high-tier and makes scrutiny by other staff and members almost impossible. The way I see it.

(I'll try not to respond anymore, just thought this should be said)
 
Maybe we can make exceptions for very high-tier verses, which would need extra scrutiny, more effort from the supporters to prove their points and staff approval, with it ending rejected if they are unable to do so.
As long as it's a matter of visual feats (such as explosion or else) and provide the aforementioned ways to prove the legitimacy of a power or a statement, it should be good.
We can also judge case by case, but totally shutting the door in the first place isn't fair, imho.
 
Planck69 said:
I know I'm not staff and feel free to delete this but Ergenverse is officially translated. Only the latest book has untranslated chapters currently. In fact, most of the Chinese novels here have been translated.
Click to expand...
Since I got the permission from Ant to post here :

Seconding this. Er Gen is officially translated. It's not even fantranslation. The sites, Wuxiaworld and Qidian bought the license, and they talk and pay the original licensing site where the novel was published. It's as official as it gets. They even have ebooks on kindle and put the translation on Amazon..... It's as official as it gets.
 
I agree that untranslated stuff shouldn't be on profiles as the profiles are in English.

While I have no problem with fan translation if the raw material is also present. Example: Having a blog where the raw text is present and under it is the translation or reverse. This should be okay as you can verify it if needed.

At the same time, all Chinese verses from novels on wiki have translation either done by official websites or qidian.

I saw that CP mentioned patience for novels to be translated and I disagree. Looking at Japanese novels, a volume is released from 3 to 6 months and usually most novels have over 5 likely to 10 plus. To wait for them to be officially translated and published it would be from 15 to 60 months, this ranging from 1 and 3 months to 5 years. This being a low to mid average while not counting novels that have been for 5plus years in translation or novels like Irregular at Magic Highschool which has 32 volumes.

Chinese novels usually have from 1000 to 3000 chapters with them being translated at 5 to 14 ch per week this would range from 200 weeks to 600 weeks if the translator doesn't take a pause. This being usually from 2 to over 5 years of translation. Once again, here being for average and not novels with 4000 to 6000 chapters which take even longer. Usually, they aren't completed being translated at that size and likely no one will add fully such a novel on wiki. Most if not all on wiki have a translation which is still ongoing or completed with 2 novels which have been dropped by qidian.

As it can be seen, fans and supporters would have to wait years to read and complete a series which will test their patience thus fan translations which a lot of times are bad but most of time for Japanese novels they are good or even better than the official ones.

Basically I'm fine with self translated and fan-made translation if the raws can be accessed.
 
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Forget to say in the above post but most of our LNs aren't official translation and the same can be said for manga/manhua/manwha. Not sure about comics but this would mean more than half of the wiki verses to be deleted.
 
I agree too, however imo we should also have some form of minimum knowledgeable members for fully untranslated verse.
Like if our only expert go away, the verse becomes abandonned by lack of support and possible verification.
 
So, summarizing:

Unofficially translated material is accepted, but scans that aren't in english can't be put on the profiles, instead they must be accompanied by a blog (or more blogs) containing explanations, the original material, the untranslated text (of balloons and sentences), the suggested translation (both written and not on images) and a list of references to the repective issues, books etc.
The only scans accepted are those that either don't have text or don't require it to be comprehended, such as purely visual feats and alike. (personal opinion, if they containt text it should be cleared to avoid misconceptions).
For high-tier characters or possibly controversial powers a superior level of scrutiny will be applied.
Supporters shall be willing to answer any question and doubt asked by staff members, or even other users, providing additional scans, text and translation if required.

Should normal blogs be evaluated and accepted by staff members?
 
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What do the other staff members here think?
 
I don't think staff should evaluate and accept normal blogs. I mean...do you expect the staff to verify each blog that appears and have knowledge on them enough to see how good or bad they are? It's impossible. If it's tier 1 then sure input from those knowledgeable on tiering will help but otherwise, I don't see why this should be a thing staff will have to do as long as it's nothing that can create "chaos" or something on these lines like a popular verse (such verses have been DB, Bleach in these few last months - mentioning them to give an example). This should be the job of the supporters and those interested within the verse to evaluate it.
 
I was referring to "translation blogs" to check if they are valid or not.

I misused the term "normal", which was intended for blogs that gather and translate normal stuff, and not tier 1-2 justifications or powers such as conceptual hax and such.
 
If nothing is controversial or tier 2-A (as from this tier it goes info infinities) or higher (tier 1 which plays with dimensions/dimensionality concepts), the staff more than sure won't bother to verify them if they aren't knowledgeable or care enough. This would also only happen to materials from Japan/Korea or China as only they will have raw/translation if not translated already. So, likely no.
 
My immediate interest is towards me and other users planning to make profiles for characters belonging to italian comics, which have been at best officially translated in portuguese, with few english versions. They mostly cap at 9-C, going up to tier 8 sometimes and few more exceptions, though.
Blogs with scans and translations will be made anyway, we will ask a staff evaluation only for some powers that are possibly controversial, then.
 
Thank you for helping out.

Can somebody summarise the arguments and conclusions here so far please?
 
The following points should be added somewhere, like in a subsection in the editing rules:

"Verses that do not possess an official english translation are allowed as long as they meet the following criteria:
  • Do not add scans in a language different from english to profiles. The only exceptions are for explicitly visual feats, clear demonstrations of powers and everything that doesn't need to read a text to be comprehended.
  • Always make one or more blogs to explain and demonstrate the content of a profile, including powers, feats and everything that requires reading a text. Blogs must contain scans (or links to them), the original text that is written into them, the proposed translation, references to the source of said scans and any kind of explanation and context needed.
  • The author of said blogs shall provide any further evidence, explanation, scan and so on if asked them by staff members or regular users,
  • Blogs for 2-A or higher tier and particularly controversial powers will be subject to extra scrutiny and will need the approval of staff members.
This is what was accepted and decided until now, let me know if what's written above needs any tweak.
 
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SamanPatou said:
The following points should be added somewhere, like in a subsection in the editing rules:

"Verses that do not possess an official english translation are allowed as long as they meet the following criteria:
  • Do not add scans in a language different from english to profiles. The only exceptions are for explicitly visual feats, clear demonstrations of powers and everything that doesn't need to read a text to be comprehended.
  • Always make one or more blog to explain and demonstrate the content of a profile, including powers, feats and everything that requires reading a text. Blogs must contain scans (or links to them), the original text that is written into them, the proposed translation, references to the source of said scans and any kind of explanation and context needed.
  • The author of said blogs shall provide any further evidence, explanation, scan and so on if asked them by staff members or regular users,
  • Blogs for 2-A or higher tier and particularly controversial powers will be subject to extra scrutiny and will need the approval of staff members.
This is what was accepted and decided until now, let me know if what's written above needs any tweak.
Click to expand...
@AKM sama @Promestein @Ryukama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245

What do you think about this suggestion?
 
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Thank you. It seems to make sense to me as well.
 
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