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Glass cannons vs stone walls bracket round 1: Shoto Todoroki vs Ghost Rider (Grace)

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Ghost Rider has 8-A durability and 9-B~8-C AP. Todoroki is 8-C physically but he’s 8-A with both sides of Half Hot Half cold.
Speed is equal
Everything else is SBA.

Todoroki: 1
Ghost Rider (Movie Version): 7
Incon: 0

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Seems like the rider has the advantage; he can win without trying to burn Todoroki to death (BFR + Penance Stare).
Trying to burn Ghost Rider to death is probably not a good idea, and Ghost Rider is unbothered by being submerged underwater so the ice will just be a temporary and brief incap.
 
Id say Ghost Rider. Given he resists Todoroki’s flames, and how Todoroki doesnt have enough AP to oneshot, Johnny just comes up and penance stares GG
 
Not necessarily, it was done to Mephisto because of iRoNy. Death isn't a factor to it.

He doesn't use it for anyone else so it's likely OOC.

Hellfire usually affects the soul and Penance Stare is a guaranteed wincon here, so likely that Ghostie takes this, no?
 
I think Penance Stare is an insta gg for ghost rider although I forgot if it could be resisted in any way
Also Shoto logically should be able to tank His flames Since Shoto can take his own flames which are immensely superior in raw fire power
So Im siding with Inconclusive unless if Penance stare is an invincible insta KO
 
Yeah but Hellfire is presumed to be dura negging by our system... for some reason
 
Yeah but Hellfire is presumed to be dura negging by our system... for some reason
That doesn’t make the most sense unless if the specific fire is just dura negging as it being from hell can mean so many different things from story to story plus I don’t think Ghost rider when he’s attacked by fire in the films had to face fire on the level of Shoto’s
 
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Unless the hellfire of that verse is specified or proven to bypass durability, we shouldn't count it as such. Should be case by case
 
Staff had a discussion where the general consensus was to delete Hellfire Manipulation.

But to be sure, is anyone arguing that Todoroki will be able to melt/vaporize Ghost Rider?
GR has win conditions, what are the win conditions for Shoto?
 
Staff had a discussion where the general consensus was to delete Hellfire Manipulation.

But to be sure, is anyone arguing that Todoroki will be able to melt/vaporize Ghost Rider?
GR has win conditions, what are the win conditions for Shoto?
Shoto’s win conditions would be to tag Ghost Rider with Half Cold as at least based on what he did to the Usj Nomu he can choose to freeze someone inside and out and it broke apart the Nomu and that thing had Low 7-B durability so if Ghost Rider gets tagged by it he’s done
(Ofc the reason why Shoto doesn’t do this more often in series is because he doesn’t wanna kill of the get go)

but then again Penance Stare could just be an insta gg plus Shoto doesn’t have resistance to soul manipulation
 
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Shoto’s win conditions would be to tag Ghost Rider with Half Cold as at least based on what he did to the Usj Nomu he can choose to freeze someone inside and out and it broke apart the Nomu and that thing had Low 7-B durability so if Ghost Rider gets tagged by it he’s done
(Ofc the reason why Shoto doesn’t do this more often in series is because he doesn’t wanna kill of the get go)

but then again Penance Stare could just be an insta gg plus Shoto doesn’t have resistance to soul manipulation
Does this count as a vote for ghost rider?
 
Ghost Rider.
Iffy about Shoto being able to freeze Ghost Rider into an icicle, or that he'll be able to safely attempt to do so without risking getting hax'd.
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First off, most of the arguments about penance stare are bad because Ghost Rider needs to be close to do it. Shoto fights and freezes at range, and moves around by sliding with his ice, so Ghost Rider would need to catch him first.

Second, Ghost Rider can’t even hurt Todoroki if we’re treating hellfire the same as normal fire, so he will spend the entire fight getting stomped on while dealing no damage himself outside of physical attacks. Which Shoto can block with his ice or dodge.

Third, Shoto literally cannot win a fight against someone who is immortal. Why was this match created.
 
Does Ghost Rider even have resistance to ice on Todoroki’s level? If he just gets spam frozen, why would he be able to keep getting out.
 
Actually Kingofwolves999 raises some good points, they're starting at a good distance away, so why can't Shoto just spam ice walls? Not like it's OOC for him to do so. Does GR have any answer to that?
 
It is questionable that Shoto can freeze from the inside from a distance. While it seems he did it on an immobile Nomu, this didn't happen when freezing a lake with Chimera in it, and when he froze Chimera from the inside he had to get to close range when Chimera is immobalized and literally shooting ice in his open mouth (and even then, this didn't kill Chimera).
Shoto_freezes_Chimera.gif

So freezing from the inside is no more unlikely than the Penance Stare, and it is unlikely to work considering that water submerging doesn't bother Ghost Rider or his flames.

If Shoto rides on his ice, he will be limited to shooting fire which is useless. If Shoto gets far then Ghost Rider can ride his motorcycle which creates passive AoE attacks, and if Shoto gets close then Ghost Rider can tag him with his Chain Manipulation.
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Getting wrapped in the chain leads to a BFR win even if Shoto is completly immune to hellfire.
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As for the ice walls, Ghost Rider can summon fire walls.
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Remember that Heaven-Piercing Ice Wall is restricted since it is Tier 7 (not that Shoto can spam it due to stamina), and Ghost Rider will eventually melt through it.
 
It doesn't have to be Heaven-Piercing Ice Wall or freezing from the inside, though. Think back to Deku vs Todoroki, he started the fight by just standing in place and sending ice at Deku.
 
Shoto couldn’t freeze Chimera easily because, unlike Ghost Rider, Chimera was way stronger than Shoto both physically and elementally. His fire and pure physical might were enough to destroy his ice regardless, and he proved himself actually capable of breaking out of the ice instantly when caught in it. Ghost Rider has no feats on Chimera’s level, so why would he be capable of doing this?

Being under water and having your entire body frozen instantly are two very different things. There are 0 reasons Ghost Rider can get out of Shoto’s ice, especially when his flames are horrendously weaker power wise, several times. Unless he has a resistance to this, what exactly can he do to retaliate?

Shoto can still attack with his ice while he’s riding it, he just manipulates the ice he’s riding on to attack at the same time. He does this pre-Endeavor Agency arc when taking out some thugs. And the AoE from Ghost Rider’s motorcycle is still fire, which makes it not affective vs Shoto.

Ghost Riders fire walls are weaker than Shoto’s ice walls, so they’re irrelevant and will get smothered.

I’m not referring to Heaven piercing ice wall, these are basic ice waves. He can do these attacks for as long as he wants, especially since he can counter the freezing with his fire side. He hasn’t had stamina issues like that since the sports festival, with Chimera being an outlier as he explicitly didn’t try to heat himself up.
 
Ghost Rider has 8-A durability, so yes his durability is comparable to Chimera. If GR is unbothered by being underwater and can casually insta-melt steel, the onus is on you to demonstrate that he is especially vulnerable to being surrounded by ice or that he can't melt his way out. (Looking at the justification, Movie Ghost Rider's durability feat is 9-A to 8-C at best, but that is for a CRT after he is out of the bracket. For now he has 8-A durability)

If you mean this scene:
0219-006.png

Then it appears that Shoto created the ice while stopping or at least he significantly slowed down to create it, so there isn't sufficient evidence that he can simultaneously ride ice and attack as normal.

Shoto is still lacking in winning conditions, so his best case scenario would be inconclusive.
 
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