Frisk and Photoshop Flowey should not be Tier 8

[Rodri_"Dante"]

So the logic for them being 8-B and 8-A respectively is pretty simple: a human soul is legitimately 8-B via matching the power of every monster in the Underground combined. Frisk has one while P. Flowey has 6.
However, this goes against the lore of the game.

From Snowdin's Librarby:
"While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water.[...]"
"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL.[...]"

From Waterfall's glyphs:
"[..]But humans have one weakness. Ironically, it is the strength of their SOUL. Its power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death. If a monster defeats a human, they can take its SOUL. A monster with a human SOUL... A horrible beast with unfathomable power."

The takeaway here is that, since humans are not made of magic like monsters, their bodies are not attuned to their soul (At least not to the extent that monsters are) and their AP shouldn't scale to their soul. Flowey is not a human, but his body isn't made of magic either.

Where does that leave the Tier 8 ratings?

Frisk's 8-B becomes "At least 9-A" unless I'm missing something. Their 8-B durability becomes "At most 8-C" via barely surviving this attack.
Photoshop Flowey would be "High 8-C" via this feat.
The Humans souls retain their rating, is just that only Asriel with Chara's soul scales.

Other stuff

Determination is not Soul Power

Soul Power is a term used in Alphys' Lab entries prior to the discovery of Determination, and most likely the unit of measurement used in the Underground to, well, measure how powerful souls are. However, both terms are not synonyms of each other given:

1. Alphys goes out of her way to give Determination it's own name, which wouldn't be necessary if both therms mean the same.
2. Soul Power has a fixed value, while Determination wildly fluctuates.
3. Monsters can directly tap into the power of the human souls they absorb without needing to feel particularly determined.

The Waterfall Glyphs do not prove that Determination is Soul Power

Specifically the part that I quoted earlier, coupled with the True Lab Entry 5:

"Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs.
I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death.
The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate.
Let's call this power...
"Determination.""

Keep in mind that Monster souls work differently than Human souls: Human souls persist after death thanks to determination, while Monster souls do so out of sheer strenght (That's why Undyne the Undying's soul doesn't persist after death even though she has more determination than Asgore, whose soul does persist after death)

So it's clear that monsters just put 2 and 2 together with what they knew about monster souls and what they found out about human souls ("Boss Monster's souls persist after death because they are strong and human souls are as strong as every monster soul combined. Therefore, human souls persist after death because they are strong")

Determination-based AP boost do not depend on your Soul Power

Well, that's a half lie. Stronger souls produce more determination on average, but that's about it.

Frisk has been overpowered 2 times by beings with both less Soul Power and less Determination: Flowey at the beginning of the game (He almost one-shots them) and Undyne the Undying (Frisk only beats her due to having unlimited tries and memorizing her attacks).

The other example is Undyne the Undying. Her Determination boost made her surpass Asgore and Toriel in power, but her soul is still weaker than both of their's as it did not persist after death.

tl;dr: No matter how determined they are shown to be, we have no reason to scale Frisk or Flowey to their soul(s) as Determination is not Soul Power nor does it scale to Soul Power outside of how much can be generated.

Frisk's AP and Durability don't scale linearly after certain level

Frisk at the peak of their determination can barely tank low 2-C attacks from Asriel but are unable to hurt them back, and the highest their AP has gone beyond any doubt is 9-A. So we don't know when does their AP start falling behind their Durability and we can't tell what's their AP at the peak of their determination.

Photoshop Flowey's abilities aren't related to AP

I've seen pointed out several times that since P. Fowey shows so much control over the new powers he gets from his souls, then he should be able to access their full power. But not only are Flowey's abilities something that has been done by several, weaker characters (Except having more than a singular save file, changing some text from the intro of the game, and... something that I believe is meant to be a pocket dimention?), but none of that can be linked to AP.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This should be interesting.

 

[Arceus0x]

Undertale on its way to another nerf

 

[Deleted member 16409]

No, let me explain.

You told that Flowey attacks would NOT be 8B, but there's one thing that you missed.

Do you remember SOUL attacks when everytime, SOUL appears and attacks us?
That's gonna be 8-B at least because of there's no way their attacks being physical one.
And Frisk still tank it and Flowey can still damage Frisk.

Problems?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

No, let me explain.

You told that Flowey attacks would NOT be 8B, but there's one thing that you missed.

Do you remember SOUL attacks when everytime, SOUL appears and attacks us?
That's gonna be 8-B at least because of there's no way their attacks being physical one.
And Frisk still tank it and Flowey can still damage Frisk.

Problems?

And probably, yes, Omega would still be At least 8-A for some reason I said above it, but. Frisk AP MAY be nerfed to At least 9-A because they can't damage Flowey normally.

But, Frisk's durability would still be At least 8-A because they're tanked Flowey attacks.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Do you remember SOUL attacks when everytime, SOUL appears and attacks us?
That's gonna be 8-B at least because of there's no way their attacks being physical one.

Mad Dummy's knife, Photoshop Flowey's vines that are clearly part of his body, and it's not Undertale but Kris can physically grab their own soul.

But, Frisk's durability would still be At least 8-A because they're tanked Flowey attacks.

Yeah, when Flowey was holding back.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Mad Dummy's knife, Photoshop Flowey's vines that are clearly part of his body, and it's not Undertale but Kris can physically grab their own soul.

How can you say that their attacks aren't magical while there wasn't 100% answer to that?

And still, when 6(six) soul's attacks us, attacks probably magical because of...
Dunno, how book words can be physical and 9-A while attacking us? Same with EMPTY gun bullets and hella a lot of knifes with (insert every attack)

Yeah, when Flowey was holding back.

Oh I missed something.
"At least 8-B" because of Frisk could only tank SOUL's attacks.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

How can you say that their attacks aren't magical while there wasn't 100% answer to that?

*Because you can't run out of knifes if they are magical, like how Undyne doesn't run out of spears.
*Flowey isn't made out of magic, so if he attacks with vines I must assume they are part of his body.

And still, when 6(six) soul's attacks us, attacks probably magical because of...

At least those attacks resemble any other magical attack in the game, most of Flowey's don't

Oh I missed something.
"At least 8-B" because of Frisk could only tank SOUL's attacks.

...what.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

*Because you can't run out of knifes if they are magical, like how Undyne doesn't run out of spears.

Fair.

*Flowey isn't made out of magic, so if he attacks with vines I must assume they are part of his body.

But at least you can't say sure if that so, but what the problem in 8-A vines?

At least those attacks resemble any other magical attack in the game, most of Flowey's don't

Seems like you didn't understand.

1. Frisk tanked 8-B soul attacks

2. Flowey can damage Frisk

3. Flowey is 8-B while holding back

...what.

I forgot what to say.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

But at least you can't say sure if that so, but what the problem in 8-A vines?

That they have no 8-A feats nor valid 8-A scaling because his body is not magical

Seems like you didn't understand.

1. Frisk tanked 8-B soul attacks

Read above

2. Flowey can damage Frisk

3. Flowey is 8-B while holding back

Feat? Calculation? Proof that non-magical beings can tap on the full power of a soul?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

That they have no 8-A feats nor valid 8-A scaling because his body is not magical
Read above

Read what? They have some calculations.
But anyway, that don't work because of some reasons.

Feat? Calculation? Proof that non-magical beings can tap on the full power of a soul?

Calculation? Sure, there was some where 13000 monsters were calculated into one.

And still, you're wrong because SOUL attacking with MAGICAL attacks, ya know?

Debunked.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Magic is a universal power source, and the calculation was like 13000 monsters calced into one. So....

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I'm gonna abridge this
Monsters' bodies are attuned to their soul due to being made out of magic. This is why a monster with a human soul is way stronger than a human with a human soul.
Frisk and Flowey aren't made out of magic, therefore the 8-B rating of the human souls doesn't apply to them.
"But P. Flowey's attacks affect the soul, so they must be magical."
Not only can non magical things can interact with souls, but even if they were magical Flowey's physiology is way too different from a monster's to even try to apply the same logic.
"But souls in PF have magical attacks, and souls are 8-B"
We don't have any feats or statements for how much of that 8-B power a human soul can output by itself. If anything, Yellow Mode should prove that human souls can't dish out 8-B attacks (Unless you want to make Mettaton EX 8-B and begin a circular scaling chain).

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I am just going to make it known that I disagree with downgrading Omega Flowey and Frisk by removing their 8-B Rating with the reasons that @DaReaperMan and @Originlima have given.

... Although, it isn't like Frisk or Flowey are ever going to get into a match with their reset bullshit, but meh~ That's another topic for another day.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I am just going to make it known that I disagree with downgrading Omega Flowey and Frisk by removing their 8-B Rating with the reasons that @DaReaperMan and @Originlima have given.

... Although, it isn't like Frisk or Flowey are ever going to get into a match with their reset bullshit, but meh~ That's another topic for another day.

I'm only agree about FRISK AP downgrade.
But not about Frisk durability downgrave because Frisk durability at maximum can scale to Asriel

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

But Asriel is low 2-C, not 8-B.

 

[DaReaperMan]

But Asriel is low 2-C, not 8-B.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

But Asriel is low 2-C, not 8-B.

Seems like you didn't even understood. Fine.

IF Frisk via DT can endure Low 2-C attacks
Then, what is their problem to endure 8-B attacks?

And aaanyway.

It's the truth that Frisk AP should be nerfed because Frisk didn't do colossal damage to Defence 0 Photoshop Flowey, ya know, only 237 or something like that.

But, the durability part is OK.


Now going to Photoshop AP's.
His AP should be left 8-A FRA.

Voting Frisk's AP nerf FRA

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Wish I caught these replies when I wasn't in class.

IF Frisk via DT can endure Low 2-C attacks
Then, what is their problem to endure 8-B attacks?

That those 8-B attacks don't exist.

Now going to Photoshop AP's.
His AP should be left 8-A FRA.

Based on what?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Wish I caught these replies when I wasn't in class.

Timezones, huh?

That those 8-B attacks don't exist.

Your argument doesn't exist.

Based on what?

Based on UT recalculation.

It said that the Monsters who absorb souls will turn into scary creatures with huge power.

Is there power? Yes.
Did Flowey transformed into horrible looking creature?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Your argument doesn't exist.

* sigh *
The reason why Frisk shouldn't keep their 8-B durability is because they have never tanked 8-B attacks. Even though a character with variable stats could potentially reach any Tier between their peak and bottom, we shouldn't give them whatever stat we feel like.

Based on UT recalculation.

It said that the Monsters who absorb souls will turn into scary creatures with huge power.

Flowey's still not a monster.

Is there power? Yes.

Yes, enough to one shot a child that by that point has took 9-A attacks at best.
Also, Flowey is obviously not going to become weaker.

Did Flowey transformed into horrible looking creature?

That is harsh and not an argument.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

* sigh *
The reason why Frisk shouldn't keep their 8-B durability is because they have never tanked 8-B attacks. Even though a character with variable stats could potentially reach any Tier between their peak and bottom, we shouldn't give them whatever stat we feel like.

sigh - this thingy doesn't give you more intellect and etc.
And you never given even an example why they(Frisk and OF) doesn't have 8 tier.

Flowey's still not a monster.

I know.

Yes, enough to one shot a child that by that point has took 9-A attacks at best.
Also, Flowey is obviously not going to become weaker.

Funny, but I already gave an explain why it's not 9-A.

That is harsh and not an argument.

As well as yours.

Anyway, here's the real one.
Since Flowey ACTUALLY became a lot of time stronger because he got Reality Warping abilities which explains that he CAN use 8-A attacks because he can USE the power of SOUL's, and he even said that his power source is SOUL's when he says "Where's my powers?" when SOUL's goes against him.

And SOUL's attacks are still magical, ya know.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

And you never given even an example why they(Frisk and OF) doesn't have 8 tier.

Please don't ask me to prove a negative

Funny, but I already gave an explain why it's not 9-A.

Is not 9-A so it is 8-B? You have to prove a possitive, not a negative.

Since Flowey ACTUALLY became a lot of time stronger because he got Reality Warping abilities which explains that he CAN use 8-A attacks because he can USE the power of SOUL's, and he even said that his power source is SOUL's when he says "Where's my powers?" when SOUL's goes against him.

Yes, and solar vehicles use the power of the sun. But they can't ram at you with High 6-A power.

And SOUL's attacks are still magical, ya know.

Souls aren't monsters.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Hello. I am one of the people responsible for the current rating.

First, let's talk about False Equivalency.

To quote you,

The takeaway here is that, since humans are not made of magic like monsters, their bodies are not attuned to their soul

... And?

Their bodies not being attuned to their SOULs is not a counterargument for Frisk being able to harness this much power from their SOUL in the first place. Flowey can clearly do it too, his body even changed shape to whatever he wanted thanks to the power of said SOULs. His vines are a byproduct of SOUL power, so it should absolutely scale.

The greatest example of SOUL power being able to be harnessed without the body being magical is when the SOULs literally turned Flowey into a magical being (Asriel) by having enough power to do so.

So no, Frisk can harness the power of their SOUL to the fullest extent at their peak, that's how they're not dead against Flowey.
So can Flowey, clearly. During the whole fight, he does nothing but that.

Second, let's talk powerscaling.

"It lacks feats", being literally every Tier 9 monster combined should be enough for Frisk against Flowey, as they're literally facing a monster capable of warping and affecting the whole underground. Same applies to Flowey, it's literally a one-time thing.

Now, let's talk about how 8-B, and 8-A respectively, are actually low ends.

The Power of a SOUL to not just additive, no. The more SOULs, the more power, in a much greater scale than simply A+B, or even A×B.

Asriel is the literal proof of this, a singular human SOUL is 8-B, or 9-A, but (an equivalent of) 7 SOULs gives him enough power to greatly affect a timeline, and completely destroy it with his presence alone. So saying 6 SOULs is 8-A when 7 are Low 2-C is very generous.
This also tells us that 8-B for a singular SOUL is quite generous as well, given how 7 of them give someone Universal power.


Overall, I greatly disagree with this.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Their bodies not being attuned to their SOULs is not a counterargument for Frisk being able to harness this much power from their SOUL in the first place.

It is.
That's why monsters with human sould are stronger than humans with their own souls

Flowey can clearly do it too, his body even changed shape to whatever he wanted thanks to the power of said SOULs. His vines are a byproduct of SOUL power, so it should absolutely scale.

Why? Just because your power source is at certain level doesn't mean you scale to it. The only reason monsters directly scale to the souls they have is because they are made of magic, so unless Flowey has feats that show he can pull off tier 8 attacks we shouldn't assume he can.

The greatest example of SOUL power being able to be harnessed without the body being magical is when the SOULs literally turned Flowey into a magical being (Asriel) by having enough power to do so.

Ok, if you can prove Flowey is a magical being as Photoshop Flowey like when he is Asriel then we should be done here.

So no, Frisk can harness the power of their SOUL to the fullest extent at their peak, that's how they're not dead against Flowey.

Frisk is not dead because Flowey was toying with them, and was stripped of his power before he could finish them off.

So can Flowey, clearly. During the whole fight, he does nothing but that.

Yes, he can harness enough power to one shot a child that by that point had at most tanked 9-A attacks. That's not 8-A

"It lacks feats", being literally every Tier 9 monster combined should be enough for Frisk against Flowey,

I have no idea of what you wrote here.

as they're literally facing a monster capable of warping and affecting the whole underground.

...what monster? Asriel? What does Asriel have to do with this?

Same applies to Flowey, it's literally a one-time thing.

What applies to Flowey?
You either didn't word this correctly or I'm loosing reading comprehension

The Power of a SOUL to not just additive, no. The more SOULs, the more power, in a much greater scale than simply A+B, or even A×B.

Asriel is the literal proof of this, a singular human SOUL is 8-B, or 9-A, but (an equivalent of) 7 SOULs gives him enough power to greatly affect a timeline, and completely destroy it with his presence alone. So saying 6 SOULs is 8-A when 7 are Low 2-C is very generous.
This also tells us that 8-B for a singular SOUL is quite generous as well, given how 7 of them give someone Universal power.

Ok, if you can figure out how much power can Flowey in particular pull from a human soul, the exponential grow rate from getting more, and prove that is 8-A or above then we should be done here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It is.
That's why monsters with human sould are stronger than humans with their own souls.

No? I just proved that the addition of SOULs is NOT linearly additive.

Monsters with Human SOULs is exponentially higher than just Human SOUL + Monster SOUL.

Why? Just because your power source is at certain level doesn't mean you scale to it.

"Just because your power is 8-A, doesn't mean the power you use is 8-A"
It does mean that, I don't know what you're even trying to say.
And I don't know why you think the SOULs are like the Chaos Emeralds and just give part of their energy to its user.

Flowey can harness the power of the SOULs to do all the things he is doing (including SAVE states), but suddenly he can't use it in the most basic way possible, which is Magic? (Aka, the basic thing even Base Flowey can do?)

Ok, if you can prove Flowey is a magical being.

I don't have to, that's not a requirement to use the power of your SOUL, as proved by Frisk ability to use their SOULs determination.

Frisk is not dead because Flowey was toying with them, and was stripped of his power before he could finish them off.
Yes, he can harness enough power to one shot a child that by that point had at most tanked 9-A attacks. That's not 8-A.

You mean the same child that tanks a Low 2-C attack not 10 minutes after this fight? Yeah, that's crazy.
You said it yourself, Flowey CAN harness the power of the SOULs, you're just assuming he can't use it all for some unexplainable reason.

I have no idea of what you wrote here

A+B in treated as the sum of its parts when supported by a clear power spike.
The sum of the underground applies to Frisk and Flowey, it doesn't need Tier 8 feats, as it's a LOW END.

....what monster? Asriel? What does Asriel have to do with this?

Omega Flowey.

You either didn't word this correctly or I'm loosing reading comprehension.

It's likely the latter.

Ok, if you can figure out how much power can Flowey in particular pull from a human soul, the exponential grow rate from getting more, and prove that is 8-A or above then we should be done here.

You're asking me to prove something as if the opposite is already true.

No, my guy. Flowey has shown to harness the power of the SOULs, which are 8-B, that's it. That's all I need to prove, if you want to assume Flowey can only harness a small portion of that power, you need to prove that.

You haven't done that, you're just under confirmation bias.

If someone has a 8-B Power, the standard assumption is that this particular someone can just use the power, unless we have a REASON to believe they can't.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

The sum of the underground applies to Frisk and Flowey, it doesn't need Tier 8 feats, as it's a LOW END.

Actually, it's lowest end possible because the difference in 6 SOULs and 7 SOULs is infinite.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Actually, it's lowest end possible because the difference in 6 SOULs and 7 SOULs is infinite.

Exactly. It's incremental. Omega Flowey is likely FAR higher than 8-A, which is even expressed in the profile.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

No?

YES! That's the whole point of the human/monster war.
A monster with a human soul > A human thanks to their magical bodies. The exponential growth has nothing to do with that.

"Just because your power is 8-A, doesn't mean the power you use is 8-A"
It does mean that, I don't know what you're even trying to say.

Because that's not what I said.
"Just because your power source is 8-A, doesn't mean the power you use is 8-A"
Your power source is the cap to your power output, not the power output itself.

And I don't know why you think the SOULs are like the Chaos Emeralds and just give part of their energy to its user.

I never said that.
I said that, depending of your body, you can harness less or more power from a soul.
You are physical? You can't harness the full power of a soul.
You are magical? You can.

Flowey can harness the power of the SOULs to do all the things he is doing (including SAVE states), but suddenly he can't use it in the most basic way possible, which is Magic? (Aka, the basic thing even Base Flowey can do?)

That's irrelevant. It has been made clear that what's important is the body.
Flowey can do all the magical or non-magical attacks he wants, his body can't exploit a soul to it's full potential.

I don't have to, that's not a requirement to use the power of your SOUL, as proved by Frisk ability to use their SOULs determination.

Yes, for several things that don't include dishing out 8-B attacks.

You mean the same child that tanks a Low 2-C attack not 10 minutes after this fight?

Which happened it a specific context where their determination peaked and literally refused death. So yeah, that child

You said it yourself, Flowey CAN harness the power of the SOULs, you're just assuming he can't use it all for some unexplainable reason.

Lore. The reason that the tier 8 ratings exist in the first place.

A+B in treated as the sum of its parts when supported by a clear power spike.

The sum of the underground applies to Frisk and Flowey, it doesn't need Tier 8 feats, as it's a LOW END..

YES, I GET IT! Frisk and Flowey have 8-B "batteries" inside if them. They never have dished out a tier 8 attack, nor is their body magical.

Omega Flowey.

Then

1. Don't call him a monster, is confusing.
2. "Capable of warping and affecting the whole underground" has been debunked in that blog linked in several UT profiles

It's likely the latter.

Well, I'm sorry, but I read "every Tier 9 monster combined should be enough for Frisk against Flowey" several times and still doesn't make sense as a sentence.

You're asking me to prove something as if the opposite is already true.

No, I'm asking you to prove the claim ("Flowey is 8-A") because that's how debates work.

I literally can't prove "Flowey is not 8-A" in the same way I can't prove any other negative. Because you don't prove negatives in debates, you prove possitives

No, my guy. Flowey has shown to harness the power of the SOULs, which are 8-B, that's it.

Ok, do it.

That's all I need to prove, if you want to assume Flowey can only harness a small portion of that power, you need to prove that

You haven't done that, you're just under confirmation bias..

You're literally asking me "Prove that Flowey is not 8-A". That's not how it works.

If someone has a 8-B Power, the standard assumption is that this particular someone can just use the power, unless we have a REASON to believe they can't.

They have an 8-B power source. Power source =/= Power output

 

[GodlyCharmander]

YES! That's the whole point of the human/monster war.
A monster with a human soul > A human thanks to their magical bodies. The exponential growth has nothing to do with that.

Again, you're just assuming that.
The exponential growth in power is a verifiable truth, a magical body being required to use one's power is an assumption.

Because that's not what I said.
"Just because your power source is 8-A, doesn't mean the power you use is 8-A"

You're assuming SOULs are a Power Source, when in actuality, they're just the strength of its user.

Determination is a Power Source to the user's SOUL. It's literally stated as such by Alphys.
If you have enough determination, you can harness the power of your SOUL.

That's all you need to tap into, Determination. Peak Determination Frisk can certainly tap into 8-B power, they literally tapped into enough power to tank a Low 2-C attack.

I said that, depending of your body, you can harness less or more power from a soul.
You are physical? You can's harness the full power of a soul.
You are magical? You can.

That's irrelevant. It has been made clear that what's important is the body.
Flowey can do all the magical or non-magical attacks he wants, his body can't exploit a soul to it's full potential.

Yes, for several things that don't include dishing out 8-B attacks.

Which happened it a specific context where their determination peaked and literally refused death. So yeah, that child

Lore. The reason that the tier 8 ratings exist in the first place.

YES, I GET IT! Frisk and Flowey have 8-B "batteries" inside if them. They never have dished out a tier 8 attack, nor is their body magical.

Then

1. Don't call him a monster, is confusing.
2. "Capable of warping and affecting the whole underground" has been debunked in that blog linked in several UT profiles

Well, I'm sorry, but I read "every Tier 9 monster combined should be enough for Frisk against Flowey" several times and still doesn't make sense as a sentence.

No, I'm asking you to prove the claim ("Flowey is 8-A") because that's how debates work.

I literally can't prove "Flowey is not 8-A" in the same way I can't prove any other negative. Because you don't prove negatives in debates, you prove possitives

Ok, do it.

You're literally asking me "Prove that Flowey is not 8-A". That's not how it works.

They have an 8-B power source. Power source =/= Power output

I am not asking you to prove Flowey is not 8-A, I am asking counter evidence for our way of rating Flowey. Prove he lacks the means to harness the full power of the SOULs that literally allow him to control the timeline.

SOULs are not a power source, they're not batteries, they're literally one's strength. Again, you're under confirmation bias.

"The user of a SOUL (with determination) can't harness the full power of their SOUL"
Why?
"Flowey can't use the SOULs he is literally using to manipulate time and space to their fullest extent?"
Why?

and your answer is ALWAYS, "Because he can't"
No, that's not enough. Unless you come with actual evidence, I am not replying anymore.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Exactly. It's incremental. Omega Flowey is likely FAR higher than 8-A, which is even expressed in the profile.

Any FINITE number is infinite smaller than Infinity.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

By the way THANK YOU @GodlyCharmander for helping and explaining, I was already tired dealing with him

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Again, you're just assuming that.
The exponential growth in power is a verifiable truth, a magical body being required to use one's power is an assumption.

No, it's literally part of the lore, which I guess I should re-quote.

From Snowdin's Librarby:
"While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water.[...]"
"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL.[...]"

If being made of magic is what makes your body attuned to your soul, then non-magical beings aren't attuned to their soul or a least not to the same degree monsters are. The proof of this is the fact that Frisk isn't 8-B at every given moment, unless you want to generate an endless upscaling chain than ends with Frisk and every monster that can hurt them rated 3-A.

You're assuming SOULs are a Power Source, when in actuality, they're just the strength of its user.

Then why is a monster with a human soul so powerful that they can wipe out an entire human village? Shouldn't every other human be capable of matching them and overwhelm them with numbers without having to rely on the monster not fighting back?

Determination is a Power Source to the user's SOUL. It's literally stated as such by Alphys.
If you have enough determination, you can harness the power of your SOUL.

That's all you need to tap into, Determination. Peak Determination Frisk can certainly tap into 8-B power, they literally tapped into enough power to tank a Low 2-C attack.

Yes, Frisk can, in theory, have any durability between 9-B and low 2-C with enough determination, including 8-B.

...prove that they have had that amount of determination at some point, otherwise you can put any value you feel like and it would hold the same weight. And of course, durability is not AP.

I am not asking you to prove Flowey is not 8-A, I am asking counter evidence for our way of rating Flowey. Prove he lacks the means to harness the full power of the SOULs that literally allow him to control the timeline..

Here's the thing:
The proof for Flowey's 8-A rating is "Human souls are 8-B and monsters directly scale to the strenght of the souls they possess thanks to their magical bodies. Photoshop Flowey has 6 human souls and became stronger because of them, so he's at least 6 times more powerful than a monster with a human soul"

The premises are correct, so I can't do anything except say "The conclusion is wrong, prove that he's 8-A".
And of course, controling a timeline is not 8-A.

SOULs are not a power source, they're not batteries, they're literally one's strength. Again, you're under confirmation bias.

No, I just never seen Frisk or Flowey dish out tier 8 attacks nor valid scaling that would make them tier 8.

"The user of a SOUL (with determination) can't harness the full power of their SOUL"
Why?
"Flowey can't use the SOULs he is literally using to manipulate time and space to their fullest extent?"
Why?

Let me rewrite that:
"We have never seen physical beings dish out tier 8 attacks despite having 8-B souls inside of them, nor have they been stated to be able to do so. Therefore, we have no reason to believe they can."

and your answer is ALWAYS, "Because he can't"
No, that's not enough. Unless you come with actual evidence, I am not replying anymore.

If that's what you think I have been doing then please do not reply anymore, you're clearly not understading what I write.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

No, it's literally part of the lore, which I guess I should re-quote.

From Snowdin's Librarby:
"While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water.[...]"
"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL.[...]"

If being made of magic is what makes your body attuned to your soul, then non-magical beings aren't attuned to their soul or a least not to the same degree monsters are.

I can't wrap my head around why you think being attuned to your own SOUL is the defining factor of how much power you can harness from it. It is not.
Being attuned to your SOUL, as the library says, only causes the monster's defense to weaken due to their will being weakened.

The proof of this is the fact that Frisk isn't 8-B at every given moment, unless you want to generate an endless upscaling chain than ends with Frisk and every monster that can hurt them rated 3-A.

Frisk is at least 8-B at their peak, they're not at their peak against any other monster other than Omega Flowey and Asriel.

Then why is a monster with a human soul so powerful that they can wipe out an entire human village? Shouldn't every other human be capable of matching them and overwhelm them with numbers without having to rely on the monster not fighting back?

Because it's not a human + a monster, it's exponentially stronger than that, as proven before.

Yes, Frisk can, in theory, have any durability between 9-B and low 2-C with enough determination, including 8-B.

...prove that they have had that amount of determination at some point, otherwise you can put any value you feel like and it would hold the same weight. And of course, durability is not AP.

They can still use that much determination, yet, "Using 8-B levels determination on AP is absurd".
Remember, DT is the source for the SOUL, if Frisk can use Low 2-C DT for durability, Harnessing 8-B levels of Determination through their SOUL is not absurd.

Here's the thing:
The proof for Flowey's 8-A rating is "Human souls are 8-B and monsters directly scale to the strenght of the souls they possess thanks to their magical bodies. Photoshop Flowey has 6 human souls and became stronger because of them, so he's at least 6 times more powerful than a monster with a human soul"

The premises are correct, so I can't do anything except say "The conclusion is wrong, prove that he's 8-A".
And of course, controling a timeline is not 8-A.

Yes, it is Low 2-C (if he's affecting it in any meaningful way, which he is not).
Omega Flowey isn't controlling the timeline itself, just time travelling, which is something only huge amounts of DT can do.

No, I just never seen Frisk or Flowey dish out tier 8 attacks nor valid scaling that would make them tier 8.

We've seen higher levels of Determination, so 8-B is far from impossible from a human SOUL.

"Also, never seen it, so it cannot be"?

Area of Effect Fallacy​

This is when someone uses a Destructive Capacity feat to counter an Attack Potency feat.

Possible Examples:

1. "The Raikage barely punched a hole in a hill with his full power punch, so he's barely above wall level".
2. "Goku Black was harmed by Vegeta's ki blasts which couldn't even destroy a city block, so he doesn't qualify for City Block level, much less Universal".
3. "Sonic hasn't been shown to destroy a planet, so he has no justification for his Planet Level tier on his profile".

The person in this example is ignoring the definition of attack potency, which states "A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the Pokemon FRA.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Oh well, based on the reaction above, I believe I made my disagreement clear. I also do not believe repeating the same thing will convince anyone of the OP's proposals, so I doubt this will go through unless something changes.
With that, I believe my job is done. If anything new comes up, please quote me again.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I can't wrap my head around why you think being attuned to your own SOUL is the defining factor of how much power you can harness from it. It is not.

So why are Monsters with a human soul so much strongers than humans then?

Being attuned to your SOUL, as the library says, only causes the monster's defense to weaken due to their will being weakened.

Maybe say that when it's not written as the justification for Kid Asriel's AP.

Frisk is at least 8-B at their peak, they're not at their peak against any other monster other than Omega Flowey and Asriel.

Then a soul is a power source, not Frisk's power output.
Also... why are you saying that Frisk was at their peak against Photoshop Flowey? There's literally nothing indicating they were at their peak then.

Because it's not a human + a monster, it's exponentially stronger than that, as proven before.

But you just said that a soul is the strength of its user. Which means that humans should be 8-B and be able to take on an 8-B monster.

...unless you mean the monster has the advantage because they have their own soul in addition to the human one, which is the point where I ask if this is a prank.

They can still use that much determination, yet, "Using 8-B levels determination on AP is absurd".
Remember, DT is the source for the SOUL, if Frisk can use Low 2-C DT for durability, Harnessing 8-B levels of Determination through their SOUL is not absurd.

See, when you rewrite what I'm saying then it's not what I'm saying anymore.

I don't think having 8-B AP is absurd, I think having 8-B AP is injustified. I could say that since Frisk's durability peaks at low 2-C then is not absurd to think that their AP should at least 3-C. I'm not wrong but I'm not giving proof

Yes, it is Low 2-C (if he's affecting it in any meaningful way, which he is not).
Omega Flowey isn't controlling the timeline itself, just time travelling, which is something only huge amounts of DT can do.

...ok?

We've seen higher levels of Determination, so 8-B is far from impossible from a human SOUL.

"Also, never seen it, so it cannot be"?

No, never seen it so I can't say is true.

Area of Effect Fallacy​

This is when someone uses a Destructive Capacity feat to counter an Attack Potency feat.

Possible Examples:

1. "The Raikage barely punched a hole in a hill with his full power punch, so he's barely above wall level".
2. "Goku Black was harmed by Vegeta's ki blasts which couldn't even destroy a city block, so he doesn't qualify for City Block level, much less Universal".
3. "Sonic hasn't been shown to destroy a planet, so he has no justification for his Planet Level tier on his profile".

The person in this example is ignoring the definition of attack potency, which states "A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

Show me the character that can withstand such forces.

 

[Sans2345]

Meh, i disagree with downgrading them, with what other people said about it.

Frisk can be at their peak when fighting characters like Asriel or Omega Flowey through determination alone, and i don't know where you got the "SOULs are batteries" thing.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I'm not being literal.
Though Alphys mentions "Soul Power".

 

[Psychomaster35]

I pretty much disagree with downgrading them as well for those reasons above.