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Frisk and Chara changes (but better)

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og thread, just felt like I should make a new one that's cleaner, only has the important changes and provides actual/more detailed arguments for them

chara's intelligence shouldn't be "presumably incredibly high"
there isn't even a justification provided on their profile and it's probably just based on headcanon/assumptions honestly, the only reasoning I could think of for that is that they're kinda wordy and speak in an "intellectual" manner but that's not nearly enough to assume their actual intelligence is "incredibly high"

going off what the game actually gives us, chara knows how SOULs work since they were able to make a basic plan revolving around them in their attempt to free the monsters, but they also lack common sense since as far as we know they genuinely thought that putting flowers in a pie wouldn't have any negative consequences, also important to note that chara is still a child and their consciousness can't be any older than their body since their consciousness was only brought back after frisk fell

so I think, using the intelligence rankings, chara would be about average

genocide frisk should be in frisk's profile, not chara's
this one is pretty simple, chara obviously isn't possessing frisk throughout the entire genocide route, they only do it briefly a few times and either way, whoever's controlling it, it's still frisk's body and it's still frisk's power, therefore it should be in frisk's profile

not totally sure about this but I don't really think chara should have reality warping
creation sure since they recreate the game after we give them our soul but we never, at least explicitly, see them warp reality, the only example I could think of where they possibly do it is in the soulless pacifist ending where the photograph is different
true%20genocide.jpg

but changing the photograph itself like it is here could easily be done just drawing over it or even taking control of frisk's body briefly for when the photo was taken, but I'll admit those are kinda unlikely and don't explain the text changing color
it's also possible this isn't even chara or anyone's doing, it could just be the game being symbolic or something idk lol, I just think jumping immediately to reality warping is weird and, if chara could bend reality itself to their whims, I feel like they'd do it more throughout the rest of the game post-genocide and give you more spooky reminders of your crimes than just a spooky photo at the end of one route

chara should have fourth wall awareness
it seems to be generally agreed upon that chara communicated with the anomaly/player and "stole their soul" after the genocide route, and interacting knowingly with the real life player = fourth wall awareness, idk why they don't have it

frisk should have supernatural willpower
for obvious reasons, also frisk is literally listed on the supernatural willpower page as one of its users, but it isn't in the powers and abilities section of their profile lol

and here's a thread for high determination frisk being upgraded, that's prolly a bigger discussion and shouldn't be squeezed here and also that thread was just made first
 
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there isn't even a justification provided on their profile and it's probably just based on headcanon/assumptions honestly, the only reasoning I could think of for that is that they're kinda wordy and speak in an "intellectual" manner but that's not nearly enough to assume their actual intelligence is "incredibly high"
This is true, there should be scans presented as well for a claim like that.
going off what the game actually gives us, chara knows how SOULs work since they were able to make a basic plan revolving around them in their attempt to free the monsters, but they also lack common sense since as far as we know they genuinely thought that putting flowers in a pie wouldn't have any negative consequences, also important to note that chara is still a child and their consciousness can't be any older than their body since their consciousness was only brought back after frisk fell

so I think, using the intelligence rankings, chara would be about average, possibly even below average
Well to be fair that's more like a silly mistake rather than some huge anti-feat which is dwarfed by her knowledge in other particular situations like SOUL mechanics so personally I think average - above average is fine.
this one is pretty simple, chara obviously isn't possessing frisk throughout the entire genocide route, they only do it briefly a few times and either way, whoever's controlling it, it's still frisk's body and it's still frisk's power, therefore it should be in frisk's profile

Agree with this.

creation sure since they recreate the game after we give them our soul but we never, at least explicitly, see them warp reality
Well the ability to save is described as "reshaping the world" here. And well after chara stole the anomaly's soul they had enough determination to recreate it so I think the interpretation of warping reality is valid. So I disagree for now.
yeah, who cares about lifting strength
I don't really have interest in this point, sorry.
 
Well the ability to save is described as "reshaping the world" here.
I don't think that's referring to the function of the save ability itself, it's just a neat reference to how frisk can sorta indirectly shape the world around them by choosing who to kill and who to spare, since life in the underground for its remaining inhabitants can drastically change in response to frisk's actions, and also how flowey himself presumably did the same sort of things back when he had the power to save
not sure how to word it but basically the save n' load stuff is essentially just time travel and immortality, but you can use those powers, at least in the context of undertale, to "play god" and "shape the world" like flowey says here

though, if the save n' load stuff actually did double as at least some kind of minor reality warping when the user is determined enough then it would explain all the shit frisk is able to do during the asriel fight
 
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And well after chara stole the anomaly's soul they had enough determination to recreate it
the way chara talks in that scene sounds more like they were just holding the world hostage in exchange for our soul, rather than they needed our soul in order to recreate the world, and other than some reasonable assumptions there isn't really any evidence that it was determination based anyway

actually the most reasonable interpretation is that chara didn't even recreate the world, they simply rewinded time to before it was destroyed and nobody kept the deja vu feeling they have after a normal reset, just like the "true reset" frisk can do after a true pacifist route
 
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the way chara talks in that scene sounds more like they were just holding the world hostage in exchange for our soul

It is accepted that chara destroyed the timeline though. That's their exact justification feat https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chara

and other than some reasonable assumptions there isn't really any evidence that it was determination based anyway
Well yes that's why we use tools like Occam's razor to determine what's viable and what's not. However what's the contradiction in chara having needed our soul? After all, by functionality chara and frisk have reality warping due to their causality/time manipulation via save points which are made via determination. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_Warping
actually the most reasonable interpretation is that chara didn't even recreate the world, they simply rewinded time to before it was destroyed and nobody kept the deja vu feeling they have after a normal reset, just like the "true reset" frisk can do after a true pacifist route
Unfortunately, since I'm not fully aware of undertale scaling, you'd need to talk to Eficiente about that. Plus that's a MASSIVE assumption so you might want to post contextual evidence for such claims.
 
It is accepted that chara destroyed the timeline though.
they were holding the timeline hostage then, the game, whatever you wanna refer to it as, I just said "world" cuz chara says "world" and it has less letters than "timeline" lol
However what's the contradiction in chara having needed our soul?
"Perhaps.
We can reach a compromise.
You still have something I want.
Give it to me.
And I will bring this world back."

it sounds more like a trade offer, like "oh you want the world back now? give me your soul and I'll bring it back then" and not "oh you want the world back now? give me your soul so that I can bring it back then", and it just being a trade would also fit with chara calling themselves a demon and deals with the devil often being "your soul in exchange for x thing"

idrk why I challenged the thing being done through determination honestly lol
Plus that's a MASSIVE assumption so you might want to post contextual evidence for such claims.
fair enough, it is basically an assumption and in the abyss dialogue they say "bring this world back" (which could still just mean reversing time to before its destruction tbf), it just doesn't really make sense to me lore/story-wise that the revived consciousness of a dead human child would just be able to casually recreate a whole ass timeline through determination or otherwise, although the limits of what an undertale character with immense determination can actually do are vague

I just think them rewinding time to "bring the world back" would be more "reasonable" or at least safe since rewinding time is an already established and consistent ability that the characters with the most determination have (flowey, frisk), and we've seen frisk be able to use the "true reset" at the end of a true pacifist route, where they're at their most determined, which effectively has the same function as what chara does here and is considered to simply be rewinding time
Well yes that's why we use tools like Occam's razor to determine what's viable and what's not.
idk what that is I'm new to this stuff
 
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I don’t really want to refute anything else, sorry.
You can put me in an ‘agree’ stance, however I’d really like if this thread became a bit bigger so I can see other people’s verdicts and come to one myself.
 
bump again, any random other people reading this if you have objections to any of these can you say so and if you agree with any of them can you also say so pls
 

Therefir

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After Chara destroyed the world, most of the game files seem to have been deleted, and it stays that way until you make a deal with Them, so I think Chara does bring back the whole world instead of just holding it hostage as Justkillme42069 is arguing.

Reality Warping should probably stay, but the other changes are fine.
 
I suppose every change except the chara reality warping one is fine for now
the chara reality warping one is probably a discussion that needs its own thread tbh
 
Okay. Please summarise the intended changes.
change chara's intelligence, probably to something like "average, possibly above average, is knowledgeable about SOULs and was able to come up with a basic plan revolving around them but seems to lack common sense to a degree since they believed putting flowers in a pie wouldn't have any negative consequences"

move genocide frisk's key from chara's profile to frisk's profile bc chara only possesses them briefly a few times and it's still frisk's body and strength either way (as a result would also give frisk fear manipulation)

add fourth wall awareness to chara's profile bc it's agreed that they talk directly to the real life player
add supernatural willpower to frisk's profile for obvious reasons

while we're at it could we also get 'skilled hand-to-hand combatant' and weapon mastery for frisk, they're able to fight well using literal garbage they find on the ground and the ballet shoes and tutu specifically should hinder them more than anything but they can fight well even using them
 
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Antvasima

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What do the rest of you think, and would somebody with better language structure be willing to apply what has been accepted here?
 
After Chara destroyed the world, most of the game files seem to have been deleted, and it stays that way until you make a deal with Them
actually I think that would just fall under data manipulation, and it could still just be chara true resetting to before those files were deleted since I think frisk true resetting also affects file0 and 9 and resets them back to how they were originally so them messing with time could also mess with the game's files
 
I think every change here except the chara reality warping one can be accepted for now, the chara reality warping one is still up for debate
 
What do the rest of you think, and would somebody with better language structure be willing to apply what has been accepted here?
I can still do the non-chara-intelligence ones if you think my wording there is bad, the genocide frisk key movement would just be copy-pasting and the ability additions would need little to no explanation since they're just pretty obvious
 
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Antvasima

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Can you list all of the pages that I need to re-lock please?
 
Can you list all of the pages that I need to re-lock please?
 
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