Fate/Extra CCC p&a cleanup (Part 1?)

[TyphonEX]

Far Side of the Moon BB and Gil currently have resistance negation via Potnia Theron and Ten Crowns, respectively. However, this is completely ungrounded and there's no proof given for either of them having resistance negation (resistance negation isn't even in BB's P&A section lmao, it's hidden away in her attacks & techniques). As a result, this resistance negation should be removed from BB (Fate/Extra CCC) and Gilgamesh's profiles.

Also, BB (Fate/Grand Order) is listed as having causality manipulation and invincibility via Ten Crowns even though her ability is quite clearly downgraded to rank D since she's outside the Far Side of the Moon and that shit doesn't work outside of it (open the BB section and then open the "Keywords" subsection, then scroll down to "03 - Khakkara" to find the linked quote). She's also listed as having invulnerability due to Potnia Theron, but there isn't actually anything about Potnia Theron that gives invulnerability or causality manipulation.

BB's Potnia Theron should also be listed as having a weakness to those who "separated from the earth, aims to venture into outer space, and has finished their childhood as an intelligent lifeform". This isn't contradicted by it affecting Servants and masters within the Moon Cell either because the masters' bodies are still on earth, and the servants didn't leave due to "ending their childhood as intelligent lifeforms" but rather because they were just copied into the Moon Cell.

Since Gilgamesh's Ten Crowns is said to be the same as BB's Ten Crowns, we should also add a weakness to Gil's profile saying that his Ten Crowns ability doesn't work outside of the Far Side of the Moon. If BB's Ten Crowns got downgraded due to moving out of the Far Side of the Moon, then why wouldn't Gilgamesh's? On top of that, it should be clarified that Gil's Ten Crowns EX doesn't necessarily apply to his original self as we have no proof that his living self ever used Ten Crowns EX. In fact, it is made quite clear that Gilgamesh cannot reach the origin of this power. Edit: Further supporting the idea that Gilgamesh's Ten Crowns EX wouldn't work outside of the Far Side of the Moon just like BB's is the fact that Gilgamesh had to give up 90% of his belongings just to travel to the Near Side of the Moon, similar to how BB got downgraded after leaving the Moon Cell. It was a downgrade so bad that Hakuno described him as being "level one".

Due to this, I think we should actually split Gil's tier 1 keys into "living" and "within the Far Side of the Moon". Only the latter key would have Ten Crowns EX and the hax and resistances associated with it. This is of course unless I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "original power" and that this key is only intended to apply to FSotM Gil anyways and living Gil isn't supposed to have a key, so I'm not quite sure about this last proposal.

Proposals and Evaluations:​

Remove resistance negation from Gil's profile and BB's FSotM profile:

Remove causality manipulation and invulnerability from BB's F/GO profile:

Add weakness to both of BB's profiles against those who separated from the earth, aims to venture into outer space, and have finished their childhood as an intelligent lifeform:

Add weakness to Gil's profile clarifying that Ten Crowns doesn't work outside FSotM:

Split Gil's keys between "Original Power" and "Within the Far Side of the Moon" with the "Original Power" key being the same as "Within the Far Side of the Moon" except lacking the hax associated with Ten Crowns EX:

 

[Robo432343]

why only resistance negation and causality

literally none of the abilities in her profile have scans

 

[Fezzih_007]

why only resistance negation and causality

literally none of the abilities in her profile have scans

It does trought,

However, this is completely ungrounded and there's no proof given for either of them having resistance negation (resistance negation isn't even in BB's P&A section lmao, it's hidden away in her attacks & techniques). As a result, this resistance negation should be removed from BB (Fate/Extra CCC) and Gilgamesh's profiles.

Why removal, you should just ask for the scan to the thing so we can put on the page.

Trought, I not sure If It was a Scan, but the thing got accepted here.

 

[Eseseso]

Looks fine

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I'm not as knowledgeable on Fate/Extra CCC, so forgive me if I mess up some stuff.

Also, Nasu stuff is outdated, and the profiles suck.

Far Side of the Moon BB and Gil currently have resistance negation via Potnia Theron and Ten Crowns, respectively. However, this is completely ungrounded and there's no proof given for either of them having resistance negation (resistance negation isn't even in BB's P&A section lmao, it's hidden away in her attacks & techniques). As a result, this resistance negation should be removed from BB (Fate/Extra CCC) and Gilgamesh's profiles.

It's because of two reasons as far as I know. A) Potnia Theron, per it's description, makes it so that those born of the "Earth" (which actually applies to humans, Servants, Divine Spirits, etcetera), unable to go against her since it's a rebellion against the "system" itself, and B) it's an Authority, and higher Authorities are accepted as being able to negate lower Authorities, including their resistances.

(The Resistance Negation being in BB's Attacks & Techniques instead of her Powers & Abilities is a byproduct of Nasuverse profiles being outdated, and BB's profile being really old).

Also, BB (Fate/Grand Order) is listed as having causality manipulation and invincibility via Ten Crowns even though her ability is quite clearly downgraded to rank D since she's outside the Far Side of the Moon and that shit doesn't work outside of it (open the BB section and then open the "Keywords" subsection, then scroll down to "03 - Khakkara" to find the linked quote). She's also listed as having invulnerability due to Potnia Theron, but there isn't actually anything about Potnia Theron that gives invulnerability or causality manipulation.

That's more about the Staff of Rulership, rather than Ten Crowns from what I can tell, which is evidenced by BB's Ten Crowns working as a Skill in Fate/Grand Order despite never being in the Moon Cell at all, let alone the Far Side of it. Plus, despite it being a downgraded version, it still has the same function (if it didn't the description would say so like other skills in the Nasuverse). Also, as you can tell by her commentary in her own profile, BB is (at least in part) intentionally lowering the Rank of her super overpowered Skills; it's not a result of not being in the Moon Cell, it's just that she's not her final boss self.

Potnia Theron has a sort of Invulnerability since beings born of "Earth" can't go against her, but it's mainly from Ten Crowns (which is part of the description on her profile, but you're right that it should be reworded).

BB's Potnia Theron should also be listed as having a weakness to those who "separated from the earth, aims to venture into outer space, and has finished their childhood as an intelligent lifeform". This isn't contradicted by it affecting Servants and masters within the Moon Cell either because the masters' bodies are still on earth, and the servants didn't leave due to "ending their childhood as intelligent lifeforms" but rather because they were just copied into the Moon Cell.

This is actually not talking about about beings that are on Earth or Outer Space. It's talking about beings who are completely alien to Earth and Earth's systems (the comment about separating from Earth and venturing into space is in reference to an event in the far, far flung future of humanity called the Age of Will where humanity transcends their humanity, becoming something more). (Also, it's referring to "actual" Outer Space since the entire universe we see is actually part of Earth, and it's not representative of how those celestial bodies actually are, which sounds stupid, I know, but that's how the Nasuverse works).

Plus, Hakuno is a being exclusive to the Moon Cell, and yet this works on them.

Since Gilgamesh's Ten Crowns is said to be the same as BB's Ten Crowns, we should also add a weakness to Gil's profile saying that his Ten Crowns ability doesn't work outside of the Far Side of the Moon. On top of that, it should be clarified that Gil's Ten Crowns EX doesn't necessarily apply to his original self as we have no proof that his living self ever used Ten Crowns EX. In fact, it is made quite clear that Gilgamesh cannot reach the origin of this power.

Gilgamesh does gain it in Fate/Extra CCC, but I can't refute your argument here since I don't actually know where the scan of Gilgamesh claiming that it's his original power is. I know it exists, but I don't remember the context of what he's referring to.

 

[TyphonEX]

It's because of two reasons as far as I know. A) Potnia Theron, per it's description, makes it so that those born of the "Earth" (which actually applies to humans, Servants, Divine Spirits, etcetera), unable to go against her since it's a rebellion against the "system" itself, and B) it's an Authority, and higher Authorities are accepted as being able to negate lower Authorities, including their resistances.

A) Her authority is "no other than the power give birth to death simultaneously with life" (note that this is not talking about death manip, but death as a result of physical causes such as those from "the whirling tides and tornados of the sea and the craters of volcanos"). Outside of Cursed Cutting Crater, this authority doesn't involve hax. And she likely can't even use Cursed Cutting Crater since it is the maximum usage of Potnia Theron, and she needs her Khakkara of Domination/Bishop Staff of Rulership to make maximum usage of her authority. It being unable to be defied is a matter of power, not hax. So what resistances would she even negate? B) When was this accepted? And why? Even if so, BB's EX rank authority doesn't mean much since Zeus's A+ rank authority is able to negate Demeter's A++ rank authority, so authority negation isn't based on who has the highest rank. So we have no way of deciding what BB's Potnia Theron is a "higher Authority" in comparison to in the first place.

Also, this still doesn't change the fact that Gilgamesh's Ten Crowns doesn't negate resistances and should be removed.

Another thing to note is that resistance negation is specifically the ability to remove a resistance entirely, not to overpower someone's resistances. Authorities bypassing resistances of lower authorities would be layered hax, not resistance negation.

That's more about the Staff of Rulership, rather than Ten Crowns from what I can tell, which is evidenced by BB's Ten Crowns working as a Skill in Fate/Grand Order despite never being in the Moon Cell at all, let alone the Far Side of it. Plus, despite it being a downgraded version, it still has the same function (if it didn't the description would say so like other skills in the Nasuverse). Also, as you can tell by her commentary in her own profile, BB is (at least in part) intentionally lowering the Rank of her super overpowered Skills; it's not a result of not being in the Moon Cell, it's just that she's not her final boss self.

No, the description on her profile does indeed say that the skill lacks its invincibility functions since it's all in the past. BB didn't even imply it was intentional, she was just saying she didn't need the invincibility aspect of Ten Crowns. The fact of the matter is that BB's matrix straight-up says that her staff of rulership (which is literally the thing that lets her use full use of her authorities including Ten Crowns) is limited to the Far Side of the Moon. It's that simple. What more do we need?

Also, it's referring to "actual" Outer Space since the entire universe we see is actually part of Earth, and it's not representative of how those celestial bodies actually are, which sounds stupid, I know, but that's how the Nasuverse works

Where are you getting this from? From my knowledge of worlds and textures in nasuverse, this sounds like headcanon.

As for the stuff about outer space, I'll have to look more into that. But to be honest I'm not too sure about that weakness, it seems kind of vague. I'll concede this for now.

 

[TyphonEX]

It does trought,

Why removal, you should just ask for the scan to the thing so we can put on the page.

Trought, I not sure If It was a Scan, but the thing got accepted here.

Why do you spell "though" like that?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Why do you spell "though" like that?

Anyway, Gilgamesh Ten Crowns can make things "Non existent" or something, so he can negate resistance by doing that. Is because of his Subjective Reality.
Based on the CRT I send above atleast.

 

[TyphonEX]

Anyway, Gilgamesh Ten Crowns can make things "Non existent" or something, so he can negate resistance by doing that. Is because of his Subjective Reality.
Based on the CRT I send above atleast.

They misunderstand Ten Crowns EX. It doesn't make BB's Ten Crowns nonexistent as they claim, it just cancels it out.

 

[ShionAH]

If the scan cannot be founded it can be removed, please provide a scan before starting this argument

 

[TyphonEX]

If the scan cannot be founded it can be removed, please provide a scan before starting this argument

Do I need to get staff approval to remove an ability with no scan?

 

[Fezzih_007]

If the scan cannot be founded it can be removed, please provide a scan before starting this argument

It don't even a scan when It got accepted in the CRT, is just pure reasoning.

 

[TyphonEX]

It don't even a scan when It got accepted in the CRT, is just pure reasoning.

That reasoning doesn't work though. By their logic, if someone has existence erasure, they'd also have resistance negation via erasing their resistances. But we don't do that here. If you have existence erasure, you only have existence erasure. And if you resist existence erasure, you resist it entirely. It does not proceed to erase your abilities.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I agree with the downgrade,

why only resistance negation and causality

literally none of the abilities in her profile have scans

I mean, this is definitely a good start to fixing the verse.

 

[TyphonEX]

This is actually not talking about about beings that are on Earth or Outer Space. It's talking about beings who are completely alien to Earth and Earth's systems (the comment about separating from Earth and venturing into space is in reference to an event in the far, far flung future of humanity called the Age of Will where humanity transcends their humanity, becoming something more). (Also, it's referring to "actual" Outer Space since the entire universe we see is actually part of Earth, and it's not representative of how those celestial bodies actually are, which sounds stupid, I know, but that's how the Nasuverse works).

Either way, the weakness that I proposed should be added since it is a word-for-word quote from the lore. What's disputed is what it actually entails.

 

[TyphonEX]

@CrimsonStarFallen @DemonGodMitchAubin @Sir_Ovens @DarkDragonMedeus @Agnaa @Armorchompy @AKM sama

May we get evaluations?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

@CrimsonStarFallen @DemonGodMitchAubin @Sir_Ovens @DarkDragonMedeus @Agnaa @Armorchompy @AKM sama

May we get evaluations?

Normal users can't ping others, you need to go to their message wall and ask them for evaluation. PS don't forget to link the CRT.

 

[TyphonEX]

Normal users can't ping others, you need to go to their message wall and ask them for evaluation. PS don't forget to link the CRT.

Thanks

 

[ShionAH]

Do I need to get staff approval to remove an ability with no scan?

Ask that in all purpose thread, you may be able to just remove it maybe

Reasoning sucks anyway

 

[Vietthai96]

Do I need to get staff approval to remove an ability with no scan?

No, every change in abilities, stats, rating need to be done in CRT, no scan or not, because CRT allow for discussion, if you remove an ability without scan but there are actually scans for it and supporters just forogot to add it, they are forced to make a new CRT just to add them back. You can only be able to remove it if supporters can't bring up evidences to defend it

 

[Wankbreaker]

Gilgamesh doesn’t even have 10 crowns, lmao.

I agree

 

[TyphonEX]

Gilgamesh does gain it in Fate/Extra CCC, but I can't refute your argument here since I don't actually know where the scan of Gilgamesh claiming that it's his original power is. I know it exists, but I don't remember the context of what he's referring to.

The most that Gilgamesh has said that resembles that is that his armor is the same as the armor that he used when fighting Enkidu. But there's no proof that Ten Crowns EX was somehow integrated into that armor. Think about it, do you really think Gilgamesh has Ten Crowns EX when fighting Enkidu? That would completely contradict what happened between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

A) Her authority is "no other than the power give birth to death simultaneously with life" (note that this is not talking about death manip, but death as a result of physical causes such as those from "the whirling tides and tornados of the sea and the craters of volcanos").

Outside of Cursed Cutting Crater, this authority doesn't involve hax.

If you read a little further down, you'll see the lines about the children of Earth being unable to oppose her since she's the system itself. (Also, it being "no other" does not mean it does not have more abilities).

It absolutely does involve hax. It's the same ability that Gorgon and Tiamat use in Fate/Grand Order's Bablyonia chapter (also, as a composite of all Earth Mother Goddesses' Authorities, BB should have Tiamat, Demeter, Ishtar, etcetera's Authorities).

After coming back to this after a day or two (I forgot about this), I've actually found out why BB's profile lists both Ten Crowns and Potnia Theron as having invulnerability and causality manipulation; it's because Ten Crowns is Potnia Theron (if you ctrl+f Potnia Theron, just scroll up a little bit and you'll find it).

And she likely can't even use Cursed Cutting Crater since it is the maximum usage of Potnia Theron, and she needs her Khakkara of Domination/Bishop Staff of Rulership to make maximum usage of her authority.

BB does not need the Staff of Rulership to use Cursed Cutting Crater. She uses it in Fate/Grand Order, but she was bored of it so she turned it into Cursed Cupid Cleanser instead.

It being unable to be defied is a matter of power, not hax. So what resistances would she even negate?

No, it's definitely hax. Authorities are all laws and concepts.

(This is my favorite description of Authorities. It's not the only one, but I just think it's really funny).

B) When was this accepted? And why?

Layers got accepted here (if you scroll up and go back through the thread, you'll see why). We still need to get the number of layers approved (but no one has done that yet).

As for Resistance Negation, I'm trying to find it, but I've been doing this for so long, that at the moment, I don't feel like it. Sorry about that. I'll get back around to it at some point.

Even if so, BB's EX rank authority doesn't mean much since Zeus's A+ rank authority is able to negate Demeter's A++ rank authority, so authority negation isn't based on who has the highest rank. So we have no way of deciding what BB's Potnia Theron is a "higher Authority" in comparison to in the first place.

Ranks don't determine the potency of Authority of whose Authority is higher; it's related to Divinity or how much Authority one has. BB has the Authority of all of the Earth Mother Goddesses (including Tiamat, Ishtar, Demter, etcetera), so her Authority is very high.

Also, this still doesn't change the fact that Gilgamesh's Ten Crowns doesn't negate resistances and should be removed.

It nullified BB's Authorities and abilities (Authorities also include resistances, and she herself has inherent resistances), so I don't necessarily agree with that.

Another thing to note is that resistance negation is specifically the ability to remove a resistance entirely, not to overpower someone's resistances.

No? Resistance Negation can be just bypassing resistances, nullifying/negating them, removing them, etcetera. Just look at Arceus who has Resistance Negation for all of those reasons, as an example.

Authorities bypassing resistances of lower authorities would be layered hax, not resistance negation.

It doesn't just effect those with lower Authorites; BB's Authorities were negated because the Playable Servants gained an Authority equal to hers, and Ereshkigal overpowered Tiamat's abilities because of Ereshkigal's Authority over the Underworld made it so everyone except her was powerless there (then Tiamat managed to override Erershkigal's Authority, even though she was powerless at first).

No, the description on her profile does indeed say that the skill lacks its invincibility functions since it's all in the past. BB didn't even imply it was intentional, she was just saying she didn't need the invincibility aspect of Ten Crowns.

BB says this, "Just kidding. That's all in the past. You know, an invincibility cheat is just shameful. This is a skill unnecessary for the beautiful and cute BB this time around☆ Oh, but you can use it a little bit. See, like this!" The way she worded it implies that she didn't feel like she needed it, and it would be "shameful" to have an invincibility skill as a cute heroine (BB's just kind of like that), but that last line implies that she can still use it, just to a lesser extent.

Her Material Book entry emphasizes both of these things more.

The fact of the matter is that BB's matrix straight-up says that her staff of rulership (which is literally the thing that lets her use full use of her authorities including Ten Crowns) is limited to the Far Side of the Moon. It's that simple. What more do we need?

Except the statement is a little different than that. It says, "A device that lets her make full use of her authority as an advanced level AI. Although limited to the Far Side of the Moon, this allows BB to modify the spiritron laws (game rules) within the SE.RA.PH."

The thing that's limited to the Far Side of the Moon is her ability to modify the Spiriton Laws/Game Rules of SE.RA.PH., not that she is unable to use her Authorities outside of the Far Side of the Moon (which is why she can still use her Authorities in Fate/Grand Order, for example).

Where are you getting this from? From my knowledge of worlds and textures in nasuverse, this sounds like headcanon.

Lostbelt 5 in Fate/Grand Order is probably the best example of that since one of the main antagonists, Kirchstaria Wodime, has a spell called Anima Animusphere. In Proper Human History, we've the best the spell can do is summon small meteors (I would show the clip from the Case Files anime, but I can't find it on YouTube), while in the Greek Lostbelt, he can do this. This is because the cosmology of the Greek Lostbelt is the same as in Greek mythology (the stars are orbs, fixed in place, or something like that), which is more compatible with the Animusphere magecraft.

As for the stuff about outer space, I'll have to look more into that. But to be honest I'm not too sure about that weakness, it seems kind of vague. I'll concede this for now.

Cool.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

The most that Gilgamesh has said that resembles that is that his armor is the same as the armor that he used when fighting Enkidu. But there's no proof that Ten Crowns EX was somehow integrated into that armor. Think about it, do you really think Gilgamesh has Ten Crowns EX when fighting Enkidu? That would completely contradict what happened between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

In that post (and as of right now), I was agreeing with you. I don't know the context of whether or not it's his original power of not.

 

[TyphonEX]

It absolutely does involve hax. It's the same ability that Gorgon and Tiamat use in Fate/Grand Order's Bablyonia chapter (also, as a composite of all Earth Mother Goddesses' Authorities, BB should have Tiamat, Demeter, Ishtar, etcetera's Authorities).

No. Absolutely not. Potnia Theron is not an all-encompassing power that includes all of their abilities. You need to prove that it is, as you've provided zero proof of that.

After coming back to this after a day or two (I forgot about this), I've actually found out why BB's profile lists both Ten Crowns and Potnia Theron as having invulnerability and causality manipulation; it's because Ten Crowns is Potnia Theron (if you ctrl+f Potnia Theron, just scroll up a little bit and you'll find it).

I think you're reading into that incorrectly but honestly that doesn't even matter much. She'd have those hax either way. What's relevant is that it's made blatantly clear that they're separate in F/GO at least. Not only are they listed separately, but how else would BB have rank D Ten Crowns but rank EX Potnia Theron?

Layers got accepted here (if you scroll up and go back through the thread, you'll see why). We still need to get the number of layers approved (but no one has done that yet).

Not really. All he said was "I can somewhat see the Mysteries and Authorities being treated as some form of layers, however some scans make it a bit vague like the whole "I can't hurt tiamat thing" sounds more AP focused rather than resisting an ability. [emphasis added]" That's an indecisive evaluation if I've ever seen one. Also, note that they never ever accept the specific idea that "higher authorities" automatically negate "lower authorities."

The thing that's limited to the Far Side of the Moon is her ability to modify the Spiriton Laws/Game Rules of SE.RA.PH., not that she is unable to use her Authorities outside of the Far Side of the Moon (which is why she can still use her Authorities in Fate/Grand Order, for example).

Not just that, but ALSO the ability to "make full use of her authority." And guess what? Cursed Cutting Crater is "maximum use of the EX skill "Conception of All Animals"". IF BB cannot make "full use of her authority" outside the FSotM, and Cursed Cutting Crater is "maximum use" of her authority "Potnia Theron", how can she use Cursed Cutting Crater outside the FSotM? You need to prove that she can.

Also, I never said that she can't use her authorities outside of the FSotM. She just can't make full use of it outside the FSotM.

No, it's definitely hax. Authorities are all laws and concepts.

Prove it. This is never stated.

BB says this, "Just kidding. That's all in the past. You know, an invincibility cheat is just shameful. This is a skill unnecessary for the beautiful and cute BB this time around☆ Oh, but you can use it a little bit. See, like this!" The way she worded it implies that she didn't feel like she needed it, and it would be "shameful" to have an invincibility skill as a cute heroine (BB's just kind of like that), but that last line implies that she can still use it, just to a lesser extent.

Prove that this "lesser extent" that she can still use includes causality manipulation or invulnerability. Otherwise, it should be removed from her F/GO profile.

It nullified BB's Authorities and abilities (Authorities also include resistances, and she herself has inherent resistances), so I don't necessarily agree with that.

Prove it that it nullified her authority entirely including her resistances. BB can still use Cursed Cutting Crater even when Gilgamesh cancels out her Ten Crowns, which blatantly contradicts what you're saying.

BB does not need the Staff of Rulership to use Cursed Cutting Crater. She uses it in Fate/Grand Order, but she was bored of it so she turned it into Cursed Cupid Cleanser instead.

Prove that she can still use it in F/GO. And no, her saying that she got bored of it does not mean that she can still use it, that's a non-sequitur. The Staff of Rulership allows her to make full use of her authority, and that's what Cursed Cutting Crater is.

Lostbelt 5 in Fate/Grand Order is probably the best example of that since one of the main antagonists, Kirchstaria Wodime, has a spell called Anima Animusphere. In Proper Human History, we've the best the spell can do is summon small meteors (I would show the clip from the Case Files anime, but I can't find it on YouTube), while in the Greek Lostbelt, he can do this. This is because the cosmology of the Greek Lostbelt is the same as in Greek mythology (the stars are orbs, fixed in place, or something like that), which is more compatible with the Animusphere magecraft.

The Greek Lostbelt seems to be pretty big, but I don't know why you're equating the size of earth's normal texture with that of the Greek Lostbelt.

You're making a lot of ungrounded claims here, which is the same problem that these outdated profiles face (that, and bad formatting). Either provide evidence for your claims or discard them.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

No. Absolutely not. Potnia Theron is not an all-encompassing power that includes all of their abilities. You need to prove that it is, as you've provided zero proof of that.

https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthre...ons-SPOILERS?p=1255987&viewfull=1#post1255987

If you scroll down to the description of Potnia Theron, the first line is "This is the goddess's authority that BB compiled and imported from the abyss of the Mooncell."

(I also should've clarified because I meant that BB should have the Authority of all of the Earth Mother Goddesses since she absorbed them into herself).

I think you're reading into that incorrectly but honestly that doesn't even matter much. She'd have those hax either way. What's relevant is that it's made blatantly clear that they're separate in F/GO at least. Not only are they listed separately, but how else would BB have rank D Ten Crowns but rank EX Potnia Theron?

How am I reading into that incorrectly? The Skill is shown to be derived from Potnia Theron. It kind of makes sense too since she can invert causality with Cursed Cutting Crater (which is a maximum use of Potnia Theron), and Potnia Theron's description includes the tidbit of these goddesses being depicted with crowns since they are often the guardian dieties of cities.

Anyway, sometimes Skills are derived from another thing, and those can have separate Ranks from each other. BB didn't downgrade Potnia Theron, but did downgrade Ten Crowns, which is just an aspect of Potnia Theron.

At least we both agree she would have those hax anyway.

Not really. All he said was "I can somewhat see the Mysteries and Authorities being treated as some form of layers, however some scans make it a bit vague like the whole "I can't hurt tiamat thing" sounds more AP focused rather than resisting an ability. [emphasis added]" That's an indecisive evaluation if I've ever seen one.

If you check the first page of the thread, layers for Authority are under the "accepted" category.

Also, because I'm dumb, I didn't link the post where they were fully accepted. Here's that (it's just a little further down the page from the earlier post).

Also, note that they never ever accept the specific idea that "higher authorities" automatically negate "lower authorities."

This is the post Theglassman12 was agreeing with.

Not just that, but ALSO the ability to "make full use of her authority." And guess what? Cursed Cutting Crater is "maximum use of the EX skill "Conception of All Animals"". IF BB cannot make "full use of her authority" outside the FSotM, and Cursed Cutting Crater is "maximum use" of her authority "Potnia Theron", how can she use Cursed Cutting Crater outside the FSotM? You need to prove that she can.
Prove that she can still use it in F/GO. And no, her saying that she got bored of it does not mean that she can still use it, that's a non-sequitur. The Staff of Rulership allows her to make full use of her authority, and that's what Cursed Cutting Crater is.

Her profile says that Cursed Cupid Cleanser was Cursed Cutting Crater, but BB transformed it into Cursed Cupid Cleanser because she got bored of using Cursed Cutting Crater all of the time (try saying that five times fast).

Also, Summer BB uses Cursed Cutting Crater as her Noble Phantasm.

Also, I never said that she can't use her authorities outside of the FSotM. She just can't make full use of it outside the FSotM.

You did say that, my bad.

Prove it. This is never stated.

Authorities work '“simply by making things happen because one has that right,”' which is pretty different from normal skills and abilties, which work because by being “able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle.” Authorities are also similiar to conceptual spells (Kasuga-no-Tsubone is basically elevated to the level of a diety here in Ooku). Also, gods themselves are concepts and the laws of nature were part of their Authorities (just watch this for a little bit). You and I both agree that Potnia Theron uses the laws of nature (it would be strange for the Earth mother goddesses to not have Authorities related to the laws of nature), and the description of Potnia Theron states the reason life of Earth cannot go against it is because that is a rebellion against the system of life itself.

Prove that this "lesser extent" that she can still use includes causality manipulation or invulnerability. Otherwise, it should be removed from her F/GO profile.

The description is "In simple terms, it's a skill that can make any injury or event outcome as if it had not happened. As long as she has this skill, BB is virtually invincible," which is the same as it is in CCC.

Prove it that it nullified her authority entirely including her resistances. BB can still use Cursed Cutting Crater even when Gilgamesh cancels out her Ten Crowns, which blatantly contradicts what you're saying.

Hm... I think I do have to concede that.

The videos I found show Archer negating Kiara's control over Hakuno, and Tamamo negating BB's "ability to decide events," but not their resistances. (Though, if we do accept the Authority stuff from earlier, they would still have it, but it would have to be reworded).

The Greek Lostbelt seems to be pretty big, but I don't know why you're equating the size of earth's normal texture with that of the Greek Lostbelt.

The Greek Lostbelt is "just" one Texture. Textures vary in size, but the main reason I brought up the Greek Lostbelt was to show how the cosmology of different Textures vary depending on human perception.

If you want more evidence of that, Ishtar's Noble Phantasm, An Gal Ta Ki Gal Šè, involves her warping to the Venus of the Age of Gods and firing its concept as a weapon. She's able to do this (which as her profile states, is actually a nuisance towards Venus as well as Earth) despite other dieties like Quetzalcoatal having control over Venus and Type Venus existing on the actual Venus because this Venus is the one in the Babylonian Age of Gods, not the Venus of another Age of Gods or the actual Venus.

Textures containing different cosmologies is also why various creation stories and apocalypses all happened in the Age of Gods without affecting the other mythologies (Surtr's Ragnorak destroyed the Norse world, but didn't affect the Greek world, for example).

As for other examples that are kind of similar,

Spoiler: big spoilers for Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon- ahead.

Arcueid's Lumina form contains a universe within it.

Also, Kama turned the innermost sanctum of the Ooku (which is just a normal room) into her body, which is the universe.

The Reverse Side of the World (which is a Texture of the Planet), is higher dimensional.

You're making a lot of ungrounded claims here, which is the same problem that these outdated profiles face (that, and bad formatting). Either provide evidence for your claims or discard them.

Which claims do you need me to provide further evidence for?

I do agree that the profiles suck.

 

[Wankbreaker]

https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthre...ons-SPOILERS?p=1255987&viewfull=1#post1255987

If you scroll down to the description of Potnia Theron, the first line is "This is the goddess's authority that BB compiled and imported from the abyss of the Mooncell."

(I also should've clarified because I meant that BB should have the Authority of all of the Earth Mother Goddesses since she absorbed them into herself).

How am I reading into that incorrectly? The Skill is shown to be derived from Potnia Theron. It kind of makes sense too since she can invert causality with Cursed Cutting Crater (which is a maximum use of Potnia Theron), and Potnia Theron's description includes the tidbit of these goddesses being depicted with crowns since they are often the guardian dieties of cities.

Anyway, sometimes Skills are derived from another thing, and those can have separate Ranks from each other. BB didn't downgrade Potnia Theron, but did downgrade Ten Crowns, which is just an aspect of Potnia Theron.

At least we both agree she would have those hax anyway.

If you check the first page of the thread, layers for Authority are under the "accepted" category.

Also, because I'm dumb, I didn't link the post where they were fully accepted. Here's that (it's just a little further down the page from the earlier post).

This is the post Theglassman12 was agreeing with.

Her profile says that Cursed Cupid Cleanser was Cursed Cutting Crater, but BB transformed it into Cursed Cupid Cleanser because she got bored of using Cursed Cutting Crater all of the time (try saying that five times fast).

Also, Summer BB uses Cursed Cutting Crater as her Noble Phantasm.


You did say that, my bad.

Authorities work '“simply by making things happen because one has that right,”' which is pretty different from normal skills and abilties, which work because by being “able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle.” Authorities are also similiar to conceptual spells (Kasuga-no-Tsubone is basically elevated to the level of a diety here in Ooku). Also, gods themselves are concepts and the laws of nature were part of their Authorities (just watch this for a little bit). You and I both agree that Potnia Theron uses the laws of nature (it would be strange for the Earth mother goddesses to not have Authorities related to the laws of nature), and the description of Potnia Theron states the reason life of Earth cannot go against it is because that is a rebellion against the system of life itself.

The description is "In simple terms, it's a skill that can make any injury or event outcome as if it had not happened. As long as she has this skill, BB is virtually invincible," which is the same as it is in CCC.

Hm... I think I do have to concede that.

The videos I found show Archer negating Kiara's control over Hakuno, and Tamamo negating BB's "ability to decide events," but not their resistances. (Though, if we do accept the Authority stuff from earlier, they would still have it, but it would have to be reworded).

The Greek Lostbelt is "just" one Texture. Textures vary in size, but the main reason I brought up the Greek Lostbelt was to show how the cosmology of different Textures vary depending on human perception.

If you want more evidence of that, Ishtar's Noble Phantasm, An Gal Ta Ki Gal Šè, involves her warping to the Venus of the Age of Gods and firing its concept as a weapon. She's able to do this (which as her profile states, is actually a nuisance towards Venus as well as Earth) despite other dieties like Quetzalcoatal having control over Venus and Type Venus existing on the actual Venus because this Venus is the one in the Babylonian Age of Gods, not the Venus of another Age of Gods or the actual Venus.

Textures containing different cosmologies is also why various creation stories and apocalypses all happened in the Age of Gods without affecting the other mythologies (Surtr's Ragnorak destroyed the Norse world, but didn't affect the Greek world, for example).

As for other examples that are kind of similar,

Spoiler: big spoilers for Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon- ahead.

Arcueid's Lumina form contains a universe within it.

Also, Kama turned the innermost sanctum of the Ooku (which is just a normal room) into her body, which is the universe.

The Reverse Side of the World (which is a Texture of the Planet), is higher dimensional.

Which claims do you need me to provide further evidence for?

I do agree that the profiles suck.

btw, OC3 confirms all Divine Spirits exist independently of the planet.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

btw, OC3 confirms all Divine Spirits exist independently of the planet.

I haven't been keeping up with Ordeal Call III stuff that much, so could you send me a link to that? I thought Archetypes were the ones that end up existing indepently from their planet.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I haven't been keeping up with Ordeal Call III stuff that much, so could you send me a link to that? I thought Archetypes were the ones that end up existing indepently from their planet.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Huh, neat. This does make sense (we have seen Divine Spirits do crazy things before, and we do have Divine Spirits that are not native to Earth like the Greek gods, Meso-American gods, and Wandjina).

Which chapter of Ordeal Call III is this from?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Huh, neat. This does make sense (we have seen Divine Spirits do crazy things before, and we do have Divine Spirits that are not native to Earth like the Greek gods, Meso-American gods, and Wandjina).

Which chapter of Ordeal Call III is this from?

its when Ciel comes in to stop Arcueid.
Divine spirits in general are supposed to be the concepts of the universe, so wouldn’t make sense for them be bound by earth either

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

its when Ciel comes in to stop Arcueid.

Cool.

Divine spirits in general are supposed to be the concepts of the universe, so wouldn’t make sense for them be bound by earth either

Ok, I guess.

 

[TyphonEX]

https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthre...ons-SPOILERS?p=1255987&viewfull=1#post1255987

If you scroll down to the description of Potnia Theron, the first line is "This is the goddess's authority that BB compiled and imported from the abyss of the Mooncell."

(I also should've clarified because I meant that BB should have the Authority of all of the Earth Mother Goddesses since she absorbed them into herself).

OK? None of that means that Potnia Theron encompasses all of their abilities. Potnia Theron wouldn't include Gorgon's petrification which surpasses Leonidas's Servant resistance for example.

The wording here implies that BB didn't absorb the goddesses themselves, but simply compiled and absorbed Potnia Theron from them. She compiled and imported the goddess's authority, not the actual goddesses themselves. However it is translated differently here, where the wording implies that she did in fact absorb the goddesses themselves. In addition to these conflicting translations, it's never specified which exact goddesses BB absorbed Potnia Theron from either, so I feel like while it is implied she absorbed goddesses like Tiamat and Ishtar, it should only be something that she possibly has.

The description is "In simple terms, it's a skill that can make any injury or event outcome as if it had not happened. As long as she has this skill, BB is virtually invincible," which is the same as it is in CCC.

You're blatantly ignoring the fact that the profile ALSO says that the author was only kidding, and that all of that was in the past. You need to prove that she STILL has abilities on that level in F/GO / outside of the Far Side of the Moon.

Authorities work '“simply by making things happen because one has that right,”' which is pretty different from normal skills and abilties, which work because by being “able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle.” Authorities are also similiar to conceptual spells (Kasuga-no-Tsubone is basically elevated to the level of a diety here in Ooku). Also, gods themselves are concepts and the laws of nature were part of their Authorities (just watch this for a little bit). You and I both agree that Potnia Theron uses the laws of nature (it would be strange for the Earth mother goddesses to not have Authorities related to the laws of nature), and the description of Potnia Theron states the reason life of Earth cannot go against it is because that is a rebellion against the system of life itself.

Sure, the laws of nature were among their authorities. That doesn't mean that every one of their authorities is conceptual. Your claim was that all authorities are laws and concepts, which is not true.

But yeah, I suppose Potnia Theron would in fact be a conceptual ability. But only in the sense that she is the system of life itself, and like in F/GO, it would be difficult to kill her since you'd either have to get rid of every living thing or somehow be able to destroy a conceptual being. There's no proof that it has any hax abilities other than that outside of its maximum usage, Cursed Cutting Crater.

If you check the first page of the thread, layers for Authority are under the "accepted" category.

Also, because I'm dumb, I didn't link the post where they were fully accepted. Here's that (it's just a little further down the page from the earlier post).

If you check the first page of the thread, layers for Authority are under the "accepted" category.

Theglassman12 did not agree with his post. All he said was "Then yeah I can see some layered hax for authority." The question of which authorities actually have layered hax was never answered. Nor was it ever accepted that all authorities have layered hax over lower authorities. As it is indicated on the profile, there is no proof that BB in particular has any sort of layered hax at all, in fact.

Her profile says that Cursed Cupid Cleanser was Cursed Cutting Crater, but BB transformed it into Cursed Cupid Cleanser because she got bored of using Cursed Cutting Crater all of the time (try saying that five times fast).

Also, Summer BB uses Cursed Cutting Crater as her Noble Phantasm.

So where's the proof that she can still use it?

Summer BB absorbed Pele, so that should be a separate key or even profile. It does not scale to her normal F/GO self.


Honestly I feel like I went a bit off-topic with the texture stuff. That doesn't really seem to have too much bearing on this particular thread.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

OK? None of that means that Potnia Theron encompasses all of their abilities.

The wording here implies that BB didn't absorb the goddesses themselves, but simply compiled and absorbed Potnia Theron from them. She compiled and imported the goddess's authority, not the actual goddesses themselves. However it is translated differently here, where the wording implies that she did in fact absorb the goddesses themselves. In addition to these conflicting translations, it's never specified which exact goddesses BB absorbed Potnia Theron from either, so I feel like while it is implied she absorbed goddesses like Tiamat and Ishtar, it should only be something that she possibly has.

The second translation fits more with what we know since BB did actually compile various Goddesses into herself, and also used those goddesses in the creation of her Alter Egos.

Potnia Theron wouldn't include Gorgon's petrification which surpasses Leonidas's Servant resistance for example.

That's an entirely different thing since Gorgon doesn't actually ahve Potnia Theron, nor is she an Earth Mother Goddess. She was just using Tiamat's Authority (and thought she was Tiamat) due to the Holy Grail.

(Though, it's possible that BB did compile her into herself at some point since Violet, one of the Alter Ego's BB created from herself, has Medusa as one of her components).

You're blatantly ignoring the fact that the profile ALSO says that the author was only kidding, and that all of that was in the past. You need to prove that she STILL has abilities on that level in F/GO / outside of the Far Side of the Moon.

The author? That's BB talking.

But fine, if you want definitive evidence that she can use it in Fate/Grand Order, it's her first Skill. You can use it in regular gameplay, anywhere.

Sure, the laws of nature were among their authorities. That doesn't mean that every one of their authorities is conceptual. Your claim was that all authorities are laws and concepts, which is not true.

That's what's accepted on the profiles. Plus, did check the other links I sent in that little section?

I feel like a lot of the confusion between us might be because I sent a lot of links together, which ended up looking like one, big, long link instead of multiple smaller ones, my bad.

But yeah, I suppose Potnia Theron would in fact be a conceptual ability. But only in the sense that she is the system of life itself, and like in F/GO, it would be difficult to kill her since you'd either have to get rid of every living thing or somehow be able to destroy a conceptual being. There's no proof that it has any hax abilities other than that outside of its maximum usage, Cursed Cutting Crater.

Are you ignoring that Ten Crowns is derived from it? Or that it's used to create monsters and beasts?

Theglassman12 did not agree with his post. All he said was "Then yeah I can see some layered hax for authority." The question of which authorities actually have layered hax was never answered. Nor was it ever accepted that all authorities have layered hax over lower authorities. As it is indicated on the profile, there is no proof that BB in particular has any sort of layered hax at all, in fact.

The post was about Authorities in general. That was what the post they were responding too was about, and they agreed. The first page of the thread even lists Nasuverse Authorities (and that's Authorities in general) as being accepted to be layered, just the number hasn't been decided yet.

So where's the proof that she can still use it?

Her profile outright says that Cursed Cupid Cleanser is Cursed Cutting Crater in a different form.

Summer BB absorbed Pele, so that should be a separate key or even profile. It does not scale to her normal F/GO self.

Summer BB is a different profile, but I brought it up to show that Cursed Cutting Crater is not limited the Moon Cell.

(Plus, BB can transform into her Summer self at will, like most Summer Servants).

Honestly I feel like I went a bit off-topic with the texture stuff. That doesn't really seem to have too much bearing on this particular thread.

That's fair.

 

[TyphonEX]

But fine, if you want definitive evidence that she can use it in Fate/Grand Order, it's her first Skill. You can use it in regular gameplay, anywhere.

That's what's accepted on the profiles. Plus, did check the other links I sent in that little section?

Of course she has Ten Crowns. I'm asking whether or not she can use Ten Crowns EX specifically in F/GO, with its "invincibility skill" and whatnot. On the contrary, we only have proof that she can use Ten Crowns D in F/GO, the downgraded skill that does NOT have the "invincibility skill" as that "invincibility skill" is all in the past.

Her profile outright says that Cursed Cupid Cleanser is Cursed Cutting Crater in a different form.

Where's the proof that she can freely use both "forms" of Cursed Cutting Crater at will?

(Plus, BB can transform into her Summer self at will, like most Summer Servants).

I don't have summer BB. Where's the proof that BB can freely transform into her Summer self at will? I guess if she has already become Summer BB then it would make sense for her to transform back and forth, but if she hasn't absorbed Pele yet, it doesn't really make sense for her to transform back and forth.

Resistance negation as opposed to resistance to resistance negation is currently based solely on Potnia Theron and Ten Crowns on Gil and BB's profiles so I'll just discuss those authorities for now as opposed to authorities in general. There's no proof that there are any authorities whose resistances Potnia Theron or Ten Crowns negate.

The second translation fits more with what we know since BB did actually compile various Goddesses into herself, and also used those goddesses in the creation of her Alter Egos.

We don't know which goddesses though, so we don't know which hax she got through Potnia Theron other than embodying the system of life itself (which would be type 5, type 1, type 2, type 3 and type 8 immortality like Tiamat).

Are you ignoring that Ten Crowns is derived from it? Or that it's used to create monsters and beasts?

I'm not sure Ten Crowns is derived from Potnia Theron? That doesn't sound right. And creating monsters and beasts, while obviously an ability, is not hax.