Fate/Extra CCC MMC Servants Are Inferior To BB

[Regidian]

And i didn't come agressively tho, i just not understand why you litteraly try to denied all the thing that relies extella to extra by just the thing that some being don't have star rank. (Like even using your extella CCC for fgo and extella being weaker, it would still mean that BB had do the same thing than in Extra since fgo BB is a BB that have lose her control over moon cell and got sealed and this BB have too the authority she got from moon cell + her mat litteraly tell she came from fate extra CCC)

 

[Zencha9]

W pfp

anyways yeah @RandomGuy does make more sense to me so i'll agree with him

 

[CrystalValley]

And i didn't come agressively tho, i just not understand why you litteraly try to denied all the thing that relies extella to extra, extra to fgo by just the thing that some being don't have star rank

in your very first post you accused me of being a BB fanboy even though I don't like her at all.

Like even using your extella CCC for fgo and extella being weaker, it would still mean that BB had do the same thing than in Extra since fgo BB is a BB that have lose her control over moon cell and got sealed and this BB have too the authority she got from moon cell + her mat litteraly tell she came from fate extra CCC

Extella BB getting in control of an inferior Moon Cell means nothing. we saw Regalia Servants with the power of Extella's Moon Cell and it was haxless fodder that could get taken down by Top Servants with basic Servant parameters. why didn't the Regalia Servants have access to all of the abilities the Moon Cell records? why didn't they get Ten Crowns? even BB got it before fusing with the Moon Cell. even THEY got it when not fused with the Moon Cell. yet they clearly don't have it with authority over the Moon Cell and can get damaged by normal people. it's clear what controlling the Moon Cell entails is vastly different than what it is in the original.

She was not compared to them it's just litteraly she take their authority and she have do it when she merged with Moon cell not before.

it said she got her authority from the goddesses she compiled.

The event of fgo is litteraly An Extra Event not a extella one. You litteraly decide whatever you want lol.

that doesn't mean anything. it's just a name. GO uses things from Extella like Sefar. Extella's power levels also match up better with GO, unlike Extra. GO cannot work if it scaled to Extra. 99.9% of the cast would apparently be useless in all aspects in GO if Beasts were really that strong and fast.

The her compared to buddha is buddhavista. The one compared to true daemon is mother earth goddes kiara.

i cannot understand what you're saying here due to the misspellings. The Kiara compared to True Demons and Buddha is the same one at the end of the game.

Only Far side Moon cell is in universe of record. The near side is not in it. And you know that INS is in universe of record too bruh...

yes and the core as well. both the Far Side and the core is the only place where all of the multiversal stuff comes from.

how the Universe of Record's higher dimensions are treated isn't explained like in CCC. and it's clear Tiamat isn't multiversal, unless you think all of the other Beasts are, which makes no sense. and even if she is, she certainly isn't 8-D just because she vaguely has a higher-D statement. that's 4-D by the standards of this wiki.


ugh, the TM wiki removed it in the references section that was an interview, so until I find it, here's still proof that she isn't from Tsukihime.

Saber: Mu? But I'm of the impression that Tsukihime characters appeared within the primary material of the game. Was that a hallucination?
Sakura: It wasn't a hallucination, but -- the matter is that there is no direct continuity of lineage from the History of Man that exists as of Tsukihime. To put it bluntly, it was fanservice.

Extra also implies that perhaps Extra Arcueid was created by the Moon Cell

Rumor also speaks of her as a creation of the Moon Cell.

this is in the details section of her matrix.

The only insconcistency you mention is the star rank....

wrong.

saying Tsukihime Arcueid is above Extra Arcueid makes almost everyone from Tsukihime 1-C with immeasurable speed. Sion damaged a fully healed Arcueid after Tsukihime and survived her attacks. a weaker avatar of Nanaya (Tatari) toyed with her casually until she became Archetype-Earth. Akiha in the Kohaku Route is stated to be above a rampaging Arcueid, which would be her at full power. and this is backed up by an even weaker Akiha beating a fully healed Arcueid later on Melty Blood. so are these characters and many other (basically all) Tsukihime characters 1-C with immeasurable speed? absolutely not. they certainly are unreasonably low-balled here, but multiversal? ha. no. only Archetype-Earth.

Your only argument is the star rank bruh

then you either haven't been reading or understanding what i've been saying.

Berserk arceuis with normal sanity have the same stat just a control over her authority. It doesn't exist a Extra arceuid fully restricted as Arceuid can't exist in Extra whitout fan service.

never stated anywhere that her authority would be the same if her sanity was restored. she is stated to be able to use the Moon Cell as her reality marble and the core is apart of her normally, yet she cannot do this while insane as a Berserker in conjunction with Gatou's delusions of her nerfing her further.

They don't have any mention to be changed and Nero with regalia who is tell to be stronger than CCC nero have normal stat.

there doesn't need to be a mention. BB has star rank stats. the MMC Servants can hold their own against her, which would be impossible with normal stats. that means the only conclusion is that they have star rank stats. why would the writers giver her star rank stats if it had absolutely no bearing on her power or the people who can fight her?

Moon cell in extella is only threatened by Sefar a being made from the same civilisation than him. And if you take extella link it's by a being that had pirated it little by little. Go is not using only extella to scale of. The even was litteraly an EXTRA event. Not an extella one.

Saber Venus does not have star rank stats, who can defeat Sefar who is a threat to the Moon Cell. and top Servants do not have star rank stats either, who are a threat to Regalia users who wield a large portion of the Moon Cell's power. and like I said before, it being called Extra means nothing when GO seems to follow Extella logic and the fact it quite literally cannot scale to Extra without the story and everything we've been shown breaking. please tell me how Servants can hold off immeasurable speed Tier 1 beings?

You didn't you just tell "the other time axis could be higher dimmension time" when Her feat and lore tell no.

that is a solid explanation, but the other one is the one me and the others were discussing earlier. Nasuverse is not one unified canon anymore.

For the lostbelt thing i was thinking you talked about the planet class rank since you had mentionned fgo just before.

sorry, but that sounds like a last minute excuse. i made it very clear what i was talking about.

Never tell moon cell cosmoly was wame than as outside world (even tho only far side is different) and even extella and fgo got thing from universe of record so it doesn't make it different from other work.

already addressed this.

I don't tell it was the berserker we fought? I tell it was berserker arcueud that was compared to her because it was litteraly stated.

ok, i'm sorry dude, but can you spell better? i mean that without the intent to roast you. i actually cannot understand what you are saying at this point. let me just put it simply.

unrestricted Extra Arcueid >>>>>>>> Berserker Arcueid with her sanity restored that is a threat to Amaterasu >>>>>>>> The Extra Servants > Berserker Arcueid without her sanity restored, which is the one they fought. your logic dictates that normal Servants without any special hax or multiversal amps beat a Moon Cell+ level being. i don't need to explain why that makes no sense.

The regalia is used as the name of authority of moon cell in extra, it's like litteraly tell that regalia=manifestation of it.

the only thing the Moon Cell grants the HGW victor is access to the Moon Cell core where they temporarily become one with it and can grant any wish they want. there is no giving the victor some ring of authority that gives them a fraction of the Moon Cell's power to defend against the Umbral Star.

You would never tell that extra even is an extella event.

I not and you clearly don't too...

i'm sorry but i cannot understand what you're saying. i know i don't use perfect grammar or anything since i'm lazy, but i cannot understand what you are saying at all. type a little slower if you need to. take your time.

Never tell that extra arceuid is stronger than tsukihime one lol when the whole point of it it's her being downgraded of her statue.

the entire cast of Tsukihime by the time of Melty Blood is not 1-C with immeasurable speed. you are arguing this indirectly since there are characters that can fight normal Arcueid and even beat her. and there are characters above her at full power even outside of Archetype-Earth, like Roa Akiha and Prime Roa potentially. i really don't need to explain why Tsukihime characters aren't multiversal outside of Archetype-Earth, do i?

 

[Harith0cell]

Randomguy makes sense here.

 

[MrBallins]

Your sure to have read the story? Extra Arcueid is litteraly tell to have less power acces to less authority than in tsukihime or her type form.

Extra Arc is not Tsuki Arc, Extra Arc is only there for fanservice since it is impossible for her to exist in a timeline where the Moon Cell is present

 

[Paul_Frank]

Extra Arc is not Tsuki Arc, Extra Arc is only there for fanservice since it is impossible for her to exist in a timeline where the Moon Cell is present

This is a misunderstanding of what's said

The statement is not that it impossible for Arc to exist, it's impossible for the events of Tsukihime to have taken place, i.e, the event where Arc gets some of her power back

 

[Paul_Frank]

in your very first post you accused me of being a BB fanboy even though I don't like her at all.


Extella BB getting in control of an inferior Moon Cell means nothing. we saw Regalia Servants with the power of Extella's Moon Cell and it was haxless fodder that could get taken down by Top Servants with basic Servant parameters.

Why is the mooncell suddenly inferior, regalia servants not being as haxed as BB doesn't mean the mooncell is worse, that's a horrid jump in logic

why didn't the Regalia Servants have access to all of the abilities the Moon Cell records? why didn't they get Ten Crowns?

Because Ten Crowns is BB's ability, and who's to say the regalia servants wouldn't get the records if, I don't know, their power wasn't split between 3 rings or something, mayhaps its because it wasn't designed to give that level of control either as that negates the purpose of the mooncell, crazy I know.

even BB got it before fusing with the Moon Cell. even THEY got it when not fused with the Moon Cell. yet they clearly don't have it with authority over the Moon Cell and can get damaged by normal people. it's clear what controlling the Moon Cell entails is vastly different than what it is in the original.

Controlling the mooncell in different ways doesn't mean the entire mooncell is different, rather than give complete control, the regalia simply makes them an administrator, you know, like Archimedes, not BB level control.

it said she got her authority from the goddesses she compiled.

She still wasn't compared to them, she just simply had their data, and through that their authority

that doesn't mean anything. it's just a name. GO uses things from Extella like Sefar. Extella's power levels also match up better with GO, unlike Extra.

Your only argument for this being true is the regalia not making people BB level, when if you look into the ring at all, it makes perfect sense as its currently split into 3, and was never meant to give that level of power, as we see an administrator and they don't have that level of power. Someone like BB was never supposed to happen in the mooncell, why would it give someone else her level of control, when it negates the entire purpose of its existence "an impartial observer who doesn't have emotions" if one person had absolute control over it, it's entire function fails.

The Kiara from the event explicitly merged with the one from the CCC incident, you can't just decide that doesn't count because you think CCC is entirely separate from everything.

GO cannot work if it scaled to Extra. 99.9% of the cast would apparently be useless in all aspects in GO if Beasts were really that strong and fast.

I hope you understand that the entire cast bar a few people is useless against Beasts.

Goetia: Solomon erases him, the pillar fights are kinda odd but it can be implied that the Servants are in a Heroic Spirit form, or closer to Gilgamesh from the end of Babylonia considering they summoned themselves from the throne just like him there

Tiamat: Had a 70 step plan with the help of 3 goddesses and Merlin, had a grand impose death on her, and had Gilgamesh use Enuma Elish and she's back anyway

Kiara: Had to be nerfed 70000 times to even be fought

Kama: Had to abuse special things to stand a chance, while she was underestimating us

None of these fights just have random Servants help, it's the few people who do scale that deal with it

yes and the core as well. both the Far Side and the core is the only place where all of the multiversal stuff comes from.

This just isn't true, but that's not relevant here

how the Universe of Record's higher dimensions are treated isn't explained like in CCC. and it's clear Tiamat isn't multiversal, unless you think all of the other Beasts are, which makes no sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense, you haven't actually given a reason, the number of people who actually fight Beasts are remarkably small

and even if she is, she certainly isn't 8-D just because she vaguely has a higher-D statement. that's 4-D by the standards of this wiki.

No she's 8-D because of scaling not just because of a vague statement.

To add onto the something besides the scaling, let's think of it this way, if BB has 8d power, and this even partially came from part of Tiamat's power, how is Tiamat not 8d? Adding on various explicitly weaker goddesses to a portion of Tiamat couldn't boost her from 4d like you think she is, to 8d which her power helped bring BB to. So either way she'd scale without a directly scaling chain between the CCC incident and FGO (which, funnily enough, exists)

ugh, the TM wiki removed it in the references section that was an interview, so until I find it, here's still proof that she isn't from Tsukihime.

I explained this above, nothing says this isn't the same Arc as normal, in fact the line from her profile(?) where it mentions her normal master is Shiki, implies she is. What's being said is that the events of Tsukihime where she gets her powers back, and DAAs roam free through the city, can't occur because Extra contradicts it (not only is this line questionable as it comes from an interview where they said the mooncell only exists in Extra which is false, but this doesn't even mean Arc herself isn't the same)

Extra also implies that perhaps Extra Arcueid was created by the Moon Cell

this is in the details section of her matrix.

A rumor is pretty bad as evidence for this, especially when the mooncell attempts to reject her existence

wrong.

saying Tsukihime Arcueid is above Extra Arcueid makes almost everyone from Tsukihime 1-C with immeasurable speed.

Incorrect, this would only be post Tsukihime at 50%, or more likely, after some amount of rest even further past that, meaning that she scales to quite literally no one

Sion damaged a fully healed Arcueid after Tsukihime and survived her attacks. a weaker avatar of Nanaya (Tatari) toyed with her casually until she became Archetype-Earth.

We don't use Melty Blood scaling for good reason rn. It's impossible to decide what actually happened because it's a fighting game without a main story, just a bunch of ladders, otherwise everyone would have already scaled to Red Arc or Dust of Osiris

Akiha in the Kohaku Route is stated to be above a rampaging Arcueid, which would be her at full power.

Incorrect, Arcueid at this point is still 9-A, rampaging or not doesn't suddenly put her at full power as even if one argues she stops holding back (which isn't true for her rampaging anyway), she still is outright missing power from Roa

and this is backed up by an even weaker Akiha beating a fully healed Arcueid later on Melty Blood

Again, Melty Blood scaling is bad for numerous reasons and not used, at best some statements are because those can be true without trying to decide which ladder is true, ans Arc isn't fully healed during it anyway, it takes place too close to Tsukihime for that

so are these characters and many other (basically all) Tsukihime characters 1-C with immeasurable speed? absolutely not.

Correct they're not, because we don't use Melty Blood

then you either haven't been reading or understanding what i've been saying.


never stated anywhere that her authority would be the same if her sanity was restored. she is stated to be able to use the Moon Cell as her reality marble and the core is apart of her normally, yet she cannot do this while insane as a Berserker in conjunction with Gatou's delusions of her nerfing her further.

Where is the part about her using it as a reality marble or the core as part of herself?

If you're arguing it's not stated her authority would be the same when her sanity is restored, why is it being argued it would be different? Her limits under Gatou are to her skill Ultimate One and her general abilities sure, this doesn't have to do with the mooncell core or anything. What issues are actually caused either way if she is or isn't the same level of authority

there doesn't need to be a mention. BB has star rank stats. the MMC Servants can hold their own against her, which would be impossible with normal stats.bthat means the only conclusion is that they have star rank stats. why would the writers giver her star rank stats if it had absolutely no bearing on her power or the people who can fight her?

I mean, star isn't an actual value it's just meant to represent her overwhelming cheat power. A level of power reached through the MMC, so it's no longer a cheat level of power in comparison, they don't necessarily have star stats, and that shouldn't exactly be assumed without proof.

Saber Venus does not have star rank stats, who can defeat Sefar who is a threat to the Moon Cell.

That's not inconsistent though. We can, for the sake of this, ignore my explanation above as to how the MMC people could have won without star rank. So the Sefar defeated her is a weakened 3rd stage Sefar, who threatens the mooncell through her power and abilities. Saber Venus has the power of the full regalia, an entire Goddess, the Photon Ray (which also has the power of the Umbral Star), and energy from a higher plane

At this point, her actual parameters could not matter any less, her actual strength far surpasses what's shown as her parameters, which is backed by the statement of her being the strongest servant there (something not true if you only look at her stats), her parameters clearly just don't matter.

and top Servants do not have star rank stats either, who are a threat to Regalia users who wield a large portion of the Moon Cell's power.

They're admins and nowhere near BB level, they just have a ring that gives them admin privileges and that's it, they aren't mega amped constantly or something

and like I said before, it being called Extra means nothing when GO seems to follow Extella logic and the fact it quite literally cannot scale to Extra without the story and everything we've been shown breaking.

Its called and shown to be Extra, your only reasons for saying it makes the story break is "I don't like these people being this strong, it means normal Servants can't have helped" which is absolutely true, they never could help.

please tell me how Servants can hold off immeasurable speed Tier 1 beings?

They can't

that is a solid explanation, but the other one is the one me and the others were discussing earlier. Nasuverse is not one unified canon anymore

This has both had multiple statements contradict it, and is supported by nothing but you not liking the level of power to scale between them

unrestricted Extra Arcueid >>>>>>>Berserker Arcueid with her sanity restored that is a threat to Amaterasu >>>>>>>> The Extra Servants > Berserker Arcueid without her sanity restored, which is the one they fought. your logic dictates that normal Servants without any special hax or multiversal amps beat a Moon Cell+ level being. i don't need to explain why that makes no sense.

Why would his logic dictate that though? The Arcueid that's defeated is super heavily nerfed, I'm pretty sure it's directly stated that normally no one would be able to match her if not for Gatou

the only thing the Moon Cell grants the HGW victor is access to the Moon Cell core where they temporarily become one with it and can grant any wish they want. there is no giving the victor some ring of authority that gives them a fraction of the Moon Cell's power to defend against the Umbral Star.

The Regalia being given isn't contradictory though, it's just an extra detail added. In Extra all that was said is that they are able to enter the core and get a wish, and that's the end of it, we never hear about what happens after you get a wish. In Extella it's just said that in addition to that, they get the ring

the entire cast of Tsukihime by the time ofMelty Blood is not 1-C with immeasurable speed. you are arguing this indirectly since there are characters that can fight normal Arcueid and even beat her. and there are characters above her at full power even outside of Archetype-Earth, like Roa Akiha and Prime Roa potentially. i really don't need to explain why Tsukihime characters aren't multiversal outside of Archetype-Earth, do i?

Correct, because as stated, we just don't use Melty Blood, so the amount of characters that do actually scale is much much smaller

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

God, this is dumb.

Stay on topic for your own thread, OP. We are not separating canons for everything and we are not making it so the rest of Fate doesn't scale to CCC. It's just not gonna happen, period.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

God, this is dumb.

Stay on topic for your own thread, OP. We are not separating canons for everything and we are not making it so the rest of Fate doesn't scale to CCC. It's just not gonna happen, period.

He said so himself that that's not his intent with this thread.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Then why are we spending half the thread with massive walls of text discussing that

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Then why are we spending half the thread with massive walls of text discussing that

i said I'd drop this due to this misunderstanding of canonicity on this site.

however the rest of what you said is wrong. the reason a less than 1% chance would arguably not matter to Gil is due to SNI and no other reason. he gets shredded in hax and his power is stated to be the same rank as hers, not higher. and CCC Gilgamesh is far superior to his living self. i do not recall him ever stating that the power was far inferior to what he had in life. could you send that scan? because I'm totally on board with that if that's the case (only for his Fate/Extra living self though), but that sounds extremely incorrect and I don't remember ever seeing that. and I've played through CCC. and if that is the case, that would only apply to his Extra living self and should be a separate key from his MMC. and the other Servants would not scale to his living self in that case.

He wanted to drop it, but since people kept responding to it, it is what it is.

 

[CrystalValley]

Then why are we spending half the thread with massive walls of text discussing that

because people felt like bringing up Tiamat for some reason. if you want it to stop, then let's talk about the actual point. most people agree here about the initial post, so what about you?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

anyways, my main proposal is simply changing the AP justification for the MMC Servants as being equal or around the AP of BB, not stronger or "far above" in Gilgamesh's case. this does not change the tiers of the MMC Servants at all.

and a secondary proposal (secondary since i didn't mention it in my OP) that Ballins mentioned is that Beast Kiara is directly stated to be of lower scale than her CCC self. i'm not here to make revisions to what is canon to what. i just made this thread to correct these small things.

This is the only thing that matters for the purposes of this thread, @CrimsonStarFallen

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Haven't played CCC, waiting for the translation so I can't help yet.

But in FGO it was mentioned that Kiara was growing stronger and stronger, and seeing as she had absorbed the power of her CCC self, I don't really think it matters. She may have started weaker, but if Kama is any indication she would probably have gotten stronger eventually.

 

[CrystalValley]

Haven't played CCC, waiting for the translation so I can't help yet.

But in FGO it was mentioned that Kiara was growing stronger and stronger, and seeing as she had absorbed the power of her CCC self, I don't really think it matters. She may have started weaker, but if Kama is any indication she would probably have gotten stronger eventually.

disagree completely, but alright. so this thread is on hold then pretty much? like there's no reason to continue at this point in time since we all can't go further off-topic? disappointed I can't reply to Paul then, but it is what it is.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

You couldn't go off topic more if you tried yeah.

If you want to argue the actual point in the OP do so, but the moment it goes off rails again I'll close this thread.

 

[CrystalValley]

You couldn't go off topic more if you tried yeah.

If you want to argue the actual point in the OP do so, but the moment it goes off rails again I'll close this thread.

well you may as well close this thread then if you're waiting on that specific CCC translation, which won't be ready for quite a few more years and i certainly won't be around by then. so this will either be a dead thread with no conclusion or someone will come in and derail it more, so best to close it i reckon.