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Everyone's Favorite Type of Thread (Nard Revision)

AlternativePrinciple

AlternativePrinciple

574
273
Hello Nard fans, miss me? Your favorite discussion rule adder, Alt, has returned with another “minor” CRT and this time its everyone's beloved Tier-2 Nard thread.🥳🎊
I am sure everyone, are much delighted with the presence of such a thread so I won't waste any more time and begin.

Note that this for the anime version of Nard
​

Yin-Yang​

Yin-Yang Release consists of Yin Release, which governs mental energies and imagination that can create form from naught, and Yang Release, which governs physical energies that can instill life into any form created. It is said that these two opposing forces are what give rise to all things in the universe. This statement is exemplified by the existence of the jutsu Creation of All Things, which has been stated to be able to turn imagination into reality and create all things from naught using the Yin-Yang Release.

Genjutsu capable of creation?​

The genjutsu, Izanag as stated by Danzo is able to turn illusion into reality. The way this is done is by removing any harmful realities and replacing them with beneficial ones for the user, this is supported by Itachi’s description of the jutsu where it portrays the users of Izanagi as creating branching realities every time they use the jutsu. The Creation of All Things as mentioned before can turn imagination into reality and is stated that the Izanagi is the practical application of the CoAT.

This means that every time someone uses the Izanagi is creating physical realities that overwrite the real one and all of this is accomplished using genjutsu. This is further supported by this statement by Kakashi in which he says “to rewrite the world in an instant and make it reality, this is just like genjutsu”, proving that genjutsu can have physical effects on reality.

Creation Feat​

During the beginning of the movie Obito places Nard and Sakura under a jutsu which Nard and Sakura at first believed to be a genjutsu but when they try to release it makes no difference leading them to the only conclusion that they were sent to “another world”. Obito clarifies that this jutsu was an experimental version of the limited tsukuyomi called the limited Tsukuyomi. He then goes onto say that this is “another world” which represents a mirror image on the water surface, with the power of the seven Tailed Beasts it creates “another reality” that is a perfect copy of this world. The word perfect as defined is
  • having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
this is in combination with the definition of reality, which means
  • the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
This means that Obito, when utilizing the power of Limited Tsukuyomi, is creating a perfect physical copy of the real world. This is supported by the narrative as mentioned before that both Nard and Sakura both believe that this is not a genjutsu. Zetsu questions that both worlds are not entirely identical, Obito responds by saying that the differences formed are simply the desires of those he puts into them. This world being physical is further supported by this statement by Kakash and that Obito can travel between both worlds using Kamui, a space-time ninjutsu.

This jutsu is performed by using the power of seven Tailed Beast and Gedo Mazo to make a seven Tome Rinnesharingan to reflect moonlight off of. Exactly similar to how the Infinite Tsukuyomi is performed but with less Tailed Beast.

I also believe that the Limited Tsukuyomi is indeed a genjutsu and that Naruto, Sakura & Kakashi have yet to experience a genjutsu that can rewrite/create realities in this way.

As stated before the LT (Limited Tsukuyomi) is called an experimental version of IT (Infinite Tsukuyomi) meaning that IT when casted upon the world is creating millions of physical alternative realities. The only argument against this is that IT is referred to as a genjutsu by the anime.

This would be true if not for the Izanagi being referred to as a genjutsu as well. As mentioned before the Izanagi does the same thing I mentioned above by creating branching realities. Danzo used the Izanagi to rewrite the world, create an alternative reality to avoid his death and Madara did the exact same thing when he fought Hashirama. Taking into account that the CoAT can turn imagination into reality and that the Izanagi being the practical application of CoAT, further supporting the idea of these characters being able to create dimensions with their minds using genjutsu and considering kaguya literally does the exact same thing when fighting Nard and Sasuke as well. When Kakashi is describing Kaguya’s dimension, he literally says “to rewrite the world in an instant and make it reality, this is just like genjutsu” when in fact she was just creating them, any other jutsu kakashi knows of that can do that is the LT. Not just that but in the official Nard website the description for Nard Shippuden #647 stated that Ten Ten was “transported to” even though she is trapped in IT.

With the removal of nard's UES, there's not much to use for scaling characters to these feats. Furthermore with the introduction of Uzuhiko, any hope of getting these feat to scale to anyone at all has been eliminated before it took form.

Hence these feats will not scale to anyone, like ETSO and will be added to future anime profiles listed below, when finished for trophy indexing purposes.
  • Juubito- possibly L2C via Creation/Limited Tsukuyomi
  • Juubidara- 2B via Creation/Infinite Tsukuyomi
  • Kaguya- 2B via Creation/Infinite Tsukuyomi

Agree-

Neutral-

Disagree-
 
Last edited:
Before we get into arguments, was there a thread that canonized Road to Ninja? Or was it always canon. And if I missed some info regarding the canon status from the OP, please quote it to me.
 
Well I'm going to take y'alls word for it for now and assume there are no contradictions. I will go through the thread. Also haven't watched Road to Ninja (I know).
 
Godernet said:
no
Click to expand...
War-Cat-meme-88f6yf.jpg
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
Hello Nard fans, miss me? Your favorite discussion rule adder, Alt, has returned with another “minor” CRT and this time its everyone's beloved Tier-2 Nard thread.🥳🎊
I am sure everyone, are much delighted with the presence of such a thread so I won't waste any more time and begin.

Note that this for the anime version of Nard
​

Yin-Yang​

Yin-Yang Release consists of Yin Release, which governs mental energies and imagination that can create form from naught, and Yang Release, which governs physical energies that can instill life into any form created. It is said that these two opposing forces are what give rise to all things in the universe. This statement is exemplified by the existence of the jutsu Creation of All Things, which has been stated to be able to turn imagination into reality and create all things from naught using the Yin-Yang Release.

Genjutsu capable of creation?​

The genjutsu, Izanag as stated by Danzo is able to turn illusion into reality. The way this is done is by removing any harmful realities and replacing them with beneficial ones for the user, this is supported by Itachi’s description of the jutsu where it portrays the users of Izanagi as creating branching realities every time they use the jutsu. The Creation of All Things as mentioned before can turn imagination into reality and is stated that the Izanagi is the practical application of the CoAT.

This means that every time someone uses the Izanagi is creating physical realities that overwrite the real one and all of this is accomplished using genjutsu. This is further supported by this statement by Kakashi in which he says “to rewrite the world in an instant and make it reality, this is just like genjutsu”, proving that genjutsu has a physical effect on reality.

Creation Feat​

During the beginning of the movie Obito places Nard and Sakura under a jutsu which Nard and Sakura at first believed to be a genjutsu but when they try to release it makes no difference leading them to the only conclusion that they were sent to “another world”. Obito clarifies that this jutsu was an experimental version of the limited tsukuyomi called the limited Tsukuyomi. He then goes onto say that this is “another world” which represents a mirror image on the water surface, with the power of the seven Tailed Beasts it creates “another reality” that is a perfect copy of this world. The word perfect as defined is
  • having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
this is in combination with the definition of reality, which means
  • the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
This means that Obito, when utilizing the power of Limited Tsukuyomi, is creating a perfect physical copy of the real world. This is supported by the narrative as mentioned before that both Nard and Sakura both believe that this is not a genjutsu. Zetsu questions that both worlds are not entirely identical, Obito responds by saying that the differences formed are simply the desires of those he puts into them. This world being physical is further supported by this statement by Kakash and that Obito can travel between both worlds using Kamui, a space-time ninjutsu.

This jutsu is performed by using the power of seven Tailed Beast and Gedo Mazo to make a seven Tome Rinnesharingan to reflect moonlight off of. Exactly similar to how the Infinite Tsukuyomi is performed but with less Tailed Beast.

I also believe that the Limited Tsukuyomi is indeed a genjutsu and that Naruto, Sakura & Kakashi have yet to experience a genjutsu that can rewrite/create realities in this way.

As stated before the LT (Limited Tsukuyomi) is called an experimental version of IT (Infinite Tsukuyomi) meaning that IT when casted upon the world is creating millions of physical alternative realities. The only argument against this is that IT is referred to as a genjutsu by the anime.

This would be true if not for the Izanagi being referred to as a genjutsu as well. As mentioned before the Izanagi does the same thing I mentioned above by creating branching realities. Danzo used the Izanagi to rewrite the world, create an alternative reality to avoid his death and Madara did the exact same thing when he fought Hashirama. Taking into account that the CoAT can turn imagination into reality and that the Izanagi being the practical application of CoAT, further supporting the idea of these characters being able to create dimensions with their minds using genjutsu and considering kaguya literally does the exact same thing when fighting Nard and Sasuke as well. When Kakashi is describing Kaguya’s dimension, he literally says “to rewrite the world in an instant and make it reality, this is just like genjutsu” when in fact she was just creating them, any other jutsu kakashi knows of that can do that is the LT. Not just that but in the official Nard website the description for Nard Shippuden #647 stated that Ten Ten was “transported to” even though she is trapped in IT.

With the removal of nard's UES, there's not much to use for scaling characters to these feats. Furthermore with the introduction of Uzuhiko, any hope of getting these feat to scale to anyone at all has been eliminated before it took form.

Hence these feats will not scale to anyone, like ETSO and will be added to future anime profiles listed below, when finished for trophy indexing purposes.
  • Juubito- possibly L2C via Creation/Limited Tsukuyomi
  • Juubidara- 2B via Creation/Infinite Tsukuyomi
  • Kaguya- 2B via Creation/Infinite Tsukuyomi

Agree-

Neutral-

Disagree-
Click to expand...
I don't have much to say about the tailed beast yada yada but I want to address Izanami and izanangi. Izanagi does not create new realities , what it does is create an illusion then tie reality to that Illusion. The illusion still remains what it is "an illusion", It's just that izanagi finds a way to tie this illusion to reality thereby changing fate
 
I’m just going to address the first spoiler argument so we aren’t exchanging walls of text.

Your first argument claims that any jutsu that utilizes Yin-Yang release will be creating form/the physical from nothing, and you use the existence of CoAT to substantiate claim. My issue here is that you’re introducing a false equivalence with the abilities of CoAT and the theoretical capabilities of any Yin-Yang jutsu. Simply having the same constituents doesn’t entail that you’ll be able to do every single thing other objects of the same constituents will be able to do. And we see that is true throughout Naruto with a high preponderance, as there exists a plethora of jutsu “constructed” of the same chakra types that are capable of performing different tasks and possessing different abilities. As such, the onus falls on you to substantiate or prove that jutsu being constituted of the same chakra types that comprise CoAT would grant them the same ability of creation, which is a burden you have not fulfilled.

Regarding Izanagi, over half of your links are broken or blocked in the US, so if you could fix those by throwing them in proper Imgur links or whatever that’d be great. Until then I can’t exactly comment on the truthfulness behind your claims since I cannot view the scans you’re interpreting.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I’m just going to address the first spoiler argument so we aren’t exchanging walls of text.

Your first argument claims that any jutsu that utilizes Yin-Yang release will be creating form/the physical from nothing, and you use the existence of CoAT to substantiate claim. My issue here is that you’re introducing a false equivalence with the abilities of CoAT and the theoretical capabilities of any Yin-Yang jutsu. Simply having the same constituents doesn’t entail that you’ll be able to do every single thing other objects of the same constituents will be able to do. And we see that is true throughout Naruto with a high preponderance, as there exists a plethora of jutsu “constructed” of the same chakra types that are capable of performing different tasks and possessing different abilities. As such, the onus falls on you to substantiate or prove that jutsu being constituted of the same chakra types that comprise CoAT would grant them the same ability of creation, which is a burden you have not fulfilled.

Regarding Izanagi, over half of your links are broken or blocked in the US, so if you could fix those by throwing them in proper Imgur links or whatever that’d be great. Until then I can’t exactly comment on the truthfulness behind your claims since I cannot view the scans you’re interpreting.
Click to expand...
the links should work now
 
AlternativePrinciple said:

Yin-Yang​

Yin-Yang Release consists of Yin Release, which governs mental energies and imagination that can create form from naught, and Yang Release, which governs physical energies that can instill life into any form created. It is said that these two opposing forces are what give rise to all things in the universe. This statement is exemplified by the existence of the jutsu Creation of All Things, which has been stated to be able to turn imagination into reality and create all things from naught using the Yin-Yang Release.

Genjutsu capable of creation?​

The genjutsu, Izanag as stated by Danzo is able to turn illusion into reality. The way this is done is by removing any harmful realities and replacing them with beneficial ones for the user, this is supported by Itachi’s description of the jutsu where it portrays the users of Izanagi as creating branching realities every time they use the jutsu. The Creation of All Things as mentioned before can turn imagination into reality and is stated that the Izanagi is the practical application of the CoAT.

This means that every time someone uses the Izanagi is creating physical realities that overwrite the real one and all of this is accomplished using genjutsu. This is further supported by this statement by Kakashi in which he says “to rewrite the world in an instant and make it reality, this is just like genjutsu”, proving that genjutsu has a physical effect on reality.
Click to expand...
You might wanna change your argument from "genjutsu always has a physical component" to "genjutsu can have a physical component"
Also
AlternativePrinciple said:
imagination into reality
Click to expand...
Not working
 
I agree but I think Kaguya should be given that rating in her ETSO along side the creation ability
since they are compared to her dimensions their destruction should likely be L2C as well

Also it might be reasonable to think it might scale to her AP as she wants to get back her chakra it might make sense to employ more chakra in getting rid of her opponents than putting in for IT or that which obito used for the RTN dimension (you can always devour shinobis chakra later but if you get sealed it's over forever so her strongest offensive jutsu like the god hands thingy should get that rating too )
 
Ghostimuscrime said:
I agree but I think Kaguya should be given that rating in her ETSO along side the creation ability
since they are compared to her dimensions their destruction should likely be L2C as well

Also it might be reasonable to think it might scale to her AP as she wants to get back her chakra it might make sense to employ more chakra in getting rid of her opponents than putting in for IT or that which obito used for the RTN dimension (you can always devour shinobis chakra later but if you get sealed it's over forever so her strongest offensive jutsu like the god hands thingy should get that rating too )
Click to expand...
This should be discussed in a separate thread.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I’m just going to address the first spoiler argument so we aren’t exchanging walls of text.

Your first argument claims that any jutsu that utilizes Yin-Yang release will be creating form/the physical from nothing, and you use the existence of CoAT to substantiate claim. My issue here is that you’re introducing a false equivalence with the abilities of CoAT and the theoretical capabilities of any Yin-Yang jutsu. Simply having the same constituents doesn’t entail that you’ll be able to do every single thing other objects of the same constituents will be able to do. And we see that is true throughout Naruto with a high preponderance, as there exists a plethora of jutsu “constructed” of the same chakra types that are capable of performing different tasks and possessing different abilities. As such, the onus falls on you to substantiate or prove that jutsu being constituted of the same chakra types that comprise CoAT would grant them the same ability of creation, which is a burden you have not fulfilled.

Regarding Izanagi, over half of your links are broken or blocked in the US, so if you could fix those by throwing them in proper Imgur links or whatever that’d be great. Until then I can’t exactly comment on the truthfulness behind your claims since I cannot view the scans you’re interpreting.
Click to expand...
Itachi’s video description of Izanagi is still blocked by VIZ, but I’ll comment on the Obito statement. Why does being a practical application of CoAT grant it the intrinsic creation properties of CoAT?
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
It is said that these two opposing forces are what give rise to all things in the universe.
Click to expand...
I'm going to hold your hand as I tell you this as gently as possible
It's literally impossible for COAT - a Hagoromo Jutsu - to give rise to ALL things in the universe. Given that humanity and the planet earth existed way before Hagoromo was even born. More glaring since you're using anime only materials. Anime where there's a whole backstory for Kaguya/Hagoromo
 
Testarossa002 said:
I'm going to hold your hand as I tell you this as gently as possible
It's literally impossible for COAT - a Hagoromo Jutsu - to give rise to ALL things in the universe. Given that humanity and the planet earth existed way before Hagoromo was even born. More glaring since you're using anime only materials. Anime where there's a whole backstory for Kaguya/Hagoromo
Click to expand...
I don't see any contradiction in this specific point tho. The statement isn't saying Hagoromo has created the entire universe. Just that light + shadow give rise to all things in universe. If we end up finding out that an entity created the known universe using Omnipotence, it can be argued that Omnipotence made use of some form of light + shadow bs. And since COAT uses that, it can give rise to anything. Hagoromo didn't create the main universe. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point (or Alt's).
 
What i find confusing is why you started the creation of anime profiles from God tiers. You can't even establish consistency as you are basically building a house from the roof. Why did you not start from part 1 then slow and steadily work your way up to the God tiers even though it might take up to a year or more actually. That would even appeal more to staffs and you can build consistency. I would be happy to help
 
karo_senpaii said:
What i find confusing is why you started the creation of anime profiles from God tiers. You can't even establish consistency as you are basically building a house from the roof. Why did you not start from part 1 then slow and steadily work your way up to the God tiers even though it might take up to a year or more actually. That would even appeal more to staffs and you can build consistency. I would be happy to help
Click to expand...
Probably cuz trying to get RTN accepted as canon would take more effort than just to get a Tier 2 anime profile
 
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