Dragon Ball's Main Cannon Timeline number downgrade

[Omegabronic]

got permission from @Damage3245 to create this thread, doing in a staff thread given the unbelievable amount of bloat created in past threads about the topic when made in normal CRTs
Forget this up above

This thread's objective is to cover up some misconceptions about the Dragon Ball cosmology we currently have, will separate into numerical points for better organization

1 Trunks' Statement​

For some reason we treat the statement trunks made about time travel in the OG manga as this:
"Trunks cites that each action in a timeline creates a new timeline. He states that there's a timeline where Goku is alive and a timeline where he is dead, listing the endless possibilities." i don't understand why an non translated japanese text is being used as evidence tbh
when in context.....Trunks is not talking about that at all? here is the full conversation with the context, in panel 1 the characters are discussing what could they do to deal with the androids, in which Trunks suggests using the time machine to go further back in time to destroy them before they are activated, in panel 2 Gohan asks if that would help, in which Trunks remembers that, even if he went back in time, nothing would change as by that point he would be going into another timeline, in panel 3 Trunks explains that he traveled not to change his future, but because his mom Bulma wanted to at least create a future where the androids didn't dominated the Earth, which gives context to what Trunks said earlier about "many different futures are created over the smallest things" is talking about the different futures that can be created from different changes made with time travel, as that was the entire context of the entire conversation, this is also corroborated in Super, which brings me to my next point

2 Time Rings​

for some reason we take the chamber where the time ring box was as if every cabinet in there had a time ring, thus countless timelines:
"The full DB cosmology contains countless timelines."
well, that is wrong, severely so, first of, nothing indicates that all those cabinets have time rings of their own, nothing is ever stated about that room that even remotely indicates that only time rings are there, that is not even implied to be why they are there, when questioned where the time rings are Gowasu only says that he "stored it in a safe place" implying that they are only there simply because he choose to put them there

with that out of the way, the series directly goes against more time rings then the ones in that singular box, as we can see here, the entire context in which Beerus goes to check the time rings, they show the singular box containing 5 and say that these are "all of them(time rings) are there" aka only 5 times currently exist, each time ring represents an alternate timeline/world so if the verse with MWI where each possibility creates a new timeline/countless timeline exist and are constantly being created..........then obviously far more than 5 would exist, in fact, creating new timelines is implied to even be against the rules, here for full context, Gowasu explains to Zamasu that going to the past is forbidden because of the high risks it has, which he implies that are the alternate worlds created as that is what he immediately explains after talking about the "great risks" even calling the act of new worlds being created as "foolish"

in the manga similar is said about the creation of alternate timelines, with the addition of Gowasu's surprise reaction when he notices another time ring was created, which would be weird if countless alternate worlds are constantly created, likewise, it wouldn't make sense to check only a singular box if supposedly an endless amount of them exist with an endless amount of Time Rings

3 Whis' statement​

Whis explains early on why changing the time and the past is prohibited, because time is supposed to only flow in one direction only, with only direct alterations making it go differently, aka from the examples of earlier, creating alternate timelines, thus not only is there no evidence for Cannon DB to run on MWI/Having countless timelines, but the series goes directly against it entirely, saying that creating alternate worlds at all is a crime and alternation of natural way of things

Conclusion​

All alternate worlds we currently accept as cannon alternate worlds, such as the Toei Anime, all the movies, DBGT, etc, should now be considered non-cannon alternate worlds, aka not part of the cannon cosmology, and vice versa, the main cannon shouldn't be considered a cannon alternate timeline to them as well, since no time travel made in the main cannon could have created them and the number of Time Rings/Alternate world in super doesn't add up taking them into consideration, as such, cosmological elements currently shared because of it will now not be shared anymore

Agree: @Maverick_Zero_X @Damage3245 @Deagonx

Disagree:

Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Omegabronic]

So what does this change?

staff thread, need to ask for permission to post

but just to summarize: Cannon multiverse would not be 2-B anymore, but 2-C, and cosmology elements and abilities currently shared between continuities would not be shared anymore

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @Theglassman12 @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @GarrixianXD @EliminatorVenom @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens @CrimsonStarFallen @Damage3245

What do you think about this?

 

[Damage3245]

I've seen the OP earlier and I agree with the arguments presented.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am mostly confused with what is being proposed, but will make some clarifications. It's not so much that DBS or Toei are canon to one another, but both are canoncally considered alternate worlds within the Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse cosmology. As in both having one-sided canon connections to that extended multiverse. There were also Dr Slump manga chapters where Arale was shown interacting with the GT cast when she traveled to other worlds.

I suppose I'm neutral for now, but want to think about what would further be proposed as a result of this.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yes, cosmology contains countless timelines.



To begin with, it is said in the work itself that there are tons of parallel worlds




What are the consequences of changing history?

The future of the world was saved because Goku and Gohan defeated Cell, but in the future in which Trunks lived, it is he who defeats Cell. In other words, the fact that Goku was cured of the fatal disease created at least two different futures, just as there is a future in which Trunks is killed by Cell. A small detail altered in the past can create countless parallel worlds.

Launched in Japan in 2003 by Shueisha and in Brazil by Conrad in 2005, the Dragon Ball Z Encyclopedia

By the way, Shin himself has a time ring, which further confirms that there are other parallel worlds in Universe 7

It is said that all Kaioshins have their own rings, refuting the fact that there are only 5 timelines, but there are several other parallel worlds in the 12 Universes.

The website itself mentions that Kaioshin are capable of going to parallel worlds in their Universes

He kills his former master, Supreme Kai Gowasu, and steals his Ring of Time, a tool that allows the Supreme Kais to travel between parallel timelines. He discovers Future Trunks' timeline where the Supreme Kai and God of Destruction had already passed away and heads there to destroy it, thereby becoming its one and only god.

Well... For those who don't know, there is a room full of time rings only in Universe 10

Shin mentions that he has traveled to several parallel worlds, multiple times, which means that it was not just 5 parallel worlds, but several of them.

Those time rings are only for Universe 10, where he travels through the future to their respective Universes

Yes, there is solid evidence that the work works with MWI, the website itself mentions it, talking about time travel

Parallel Worlds and Time Paradoxes

ow that we've all hopefully got at least a vague understanding of how time machines could work, I decided to ask about parallel worlds and time paradoxes. Time paradoxes occur when some kind of contradiction or loop is created due to your travels to and from the past and future, and in order to enable time travel, we'd have to find a way to resolve them.Even within Dragon Ball, Trunks altered his universe's history slightly by going back to the past to discover the Androids' weakness. It's this process that gives rise to multiple futures, i.e., parallel worlds.

Being a crime does not guarantee you to refute MWI, especially because parallel worlds are created by smaller things, with thousands of them existing through simple time travel.

Furthermore, in the anime itself it is shown that there are other parallel worlds besides those mentioned in Universe 10



Not only that, but the following is said on the official Dragon Ball website

Three years pass, and Androids 19 and 20 attack South City. Once again Trunks returns from the future, but the Androids that attacked South City are not the Androids that Trunks knows. One small change in history can cause many possible futures, so it seems that the past that Trunks arrived in was not the past he knew.

In other words, MWI continues to exist, many futures are created by some nonsense, so the Multiverse still continues to be 2-B with MWI.

And to begin with, you don't even know the real reason Dragon Ball toei, GT exists with an alternative line, GT has his canon demonstrated to exist in the same Universe as Dr. Slump, film existing in the same multiverse, all multiverses are connected by the work itself that shows it exists in the shared multiverse and existing as alternate lines like Trunks'.

Every explanation of why the GT is part of the shared multiverse is here

Dragon Ball itself says that Arale lives next to the city where all the events in the story take place and Goku can also travel to Penguin Village via teleportation



If you have any doubts about this, look at the manga itself, where even the characters exist in the same location as Dr Slump

The principle of a "parallel world" is that when a certain person's actions change, it results in a new future being created. When Trunks came to the world of the past, it was not to change his era, where the Artificial Humans are in control. Even if Goku and the others defeat the Artificial Humans, it will only mean that a peaceful future will come about in an alternate dimension. Bulma's sentiment of "let there at least be peace in another universe" is quite heartrending.

TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu

(ドラゴンボールZ 孫悟空伝説) is a guide released by Shueisha on October 3, 2003. This guide covers the episodes of the original Dragon Ball Z anime. Its "sequel" is TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Densetsu.

Even if you want to render DBGT, Toei, and all the films, they still exist as an alternate timeline according to Shueisha itself.

x.com

x.com

Furthermore, even Daima himself treats Dragon Ball as part of the Dragon Ball timeline, but of course, all of this exists in an alternative timeline

@Antvasima gave me permission

 

[Omegabronic]

It's not so much that DBS or Toei are canon to one another, but both are canoncally considered alternate worlds within the Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse cosmology.

this thread isn't changing that for Heroes and Xenoverse, but currently that is what is accepted for the main cannon as well, which is what is being proposed to change

There were also Dr Slump manga chapters where Arale was shown interacting with the GT cast when she traveled to other worlds.

well, the only thing i know of is the Dr Slump's author avatars drawing DBGT chars......but like, Dr Slump already breaks to 4th wall so much that i don't think of that as anything more than a mere reference, specially when DBS completely shuts off any possibility of DBGT existing as a cannon alternate timeline

I suppose I'm neutral for now, but want to think about what would further be proposed as a result of this.

noted

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with the proposal.

I've seen the OP earlier and I agree with the arguments presented.

Please, right? At least listen to the counter arguments before wanting to vote, they are the same things every time.

 

[Damage3245]

Please, right? At least listen to the counter arguments before wanting to vote, they are the same things every time.

Just because staff members give an initial vote on the OP itself doesn't mean they won't read counter-arguments.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Just because staff members give an initial vote on the OP itself doesn't mean they won't read counter-arguments.

But you always don't read the counter arguments, this happens every time, at least keep neutrals before the counter arguments.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yes, cosmology contains countless timelines.



To begin with, it is said in the work itself that there are tons of parallel worlds




What are the consequences of changing history?










The website itself mentions that Kaioshin are capable of going to parallel worlds in their Universes










Yes, there is solid evidence that the work works with MWI, the website itself mentions it, talking about time travel

Parallel Worlds and Time Paradoxes







Furthermore, in the anime itself it is shown that there are other parallel worlds besides those mentioned in Universe 10



Not only that, but the following is said on the official Dragon Ball website



In other words, MWI continues to exist, many futures are created by some nonsense, so the Multiverse still continues to be 2-B with MWI.

And to begin with, you don't even know the real reason Dragon Ball toei, GT exists with an alternative line, GT has his canon demonstrated to exist in the same Universe as Dr. Slump, film existing in the same multiverse, all multiverses are connected by the work itself that shows it exists in the shared multiverse and existing as alternate lines like Trunks'.



Dragon Ball itself says that Arale lives next to the city where all the events in the story take place and Goku can also travel to Penguin Village via teleportation



If you have any doubts about this, look at the manga itself, where even the characters exist in the same location as Dr Slump





TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu

(ドラゴンボールZ 孫悟空伝説) is a guide released by Shueisha on October 3, 2003. This guide covers the episodes of the original Dragon Ball Z anime. Its "sequel" is TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Densetsu.

Even if you want to render DBGT, Toei, and all the films, they still exist as an alternate timeline according to Shueisha itself.

x.com

x.com

Furthermore, even Daima himself treats Dragon Ball as part of the Dragon Ball timeline, but of course, all of this exists in an alternative timeline

@Antvasima gave me permission

Now regarding the films

My sincerest gratitude to all those who bought this Dragon Ball movie DVD box! With these movies, the Dragon Box series finally comes to a close.In most cases with the movies, the script writers used their marvelous techniques to write up an original story, based on my original work. The original work develops in such a way that it makes it difficult to come up with side-stories, so i think they really did a good job.

I was very busy during serialization, so I couldn’t really help them out, but every once in a while the producer would ask me to design an original enemy character for the movies, so that was the only time that I’d collaborate with them a little bit. But that sure was hard… Even though I had all these strong-looking characters appearing in the manga, and was already at my limit material-wise, i still had to think up even stronger designs… Really, they’re all such a strong-looking bunch that it raises my blood pressure.

Still, this allowed them to make these amazing movies that are so powerful and effective, so what am i complaining about?

As the creator of Dragon Ball, I’m thoroughly made aware of what a happy manga it is, blessed by its fans and staff.

You can find this interview with Akira Toriyama here

Being a parallel story does not take away its canonicity, in fact if it is parallel i imagine it coexists with the original work

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

People are allowed to vote, I often vote but change in stance when more counterarguments arrive. So it's not like Damage or Maverick are doing anything wrong.

well, the only thing i know of is the Dr Slump's author avatars drawing DBGT chars......but like, Dr Slump already breaks to 4th wall so much that i don't think of that as anything more than a mere reference, specially when DBS completely shuts off any possibility of DBGT existing as a cannon alternate timeline

That is a fair point, but I still have other concerns.

I do for example still think using Toriyama's illustration which was something he actually planned to write for his original manga, but hasn't gotten around to it and basically finished it during the ongoing production of the Anime. But he clearly has intended it to be part of the original manga and is shown to be consistent with the Anime statements. Those that's just an example that can be used to indexing both as a baseline, but I pretty much agree that in other areas it may not be 1 to 1 when it comes to other details.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes, cosmology contains countless timelines.



To begin with, it is said in the work itself that there are tons of parallel worlds

give the context and episode from this scene please, Pilaf asking it has little relevance when everything else said about the system of timelines contradicts this completely

What are the consequences of changing history?

yes, altering the past with Time Travel creates new timelines/branches them, that much is obvious as is said in the OP

the arc makes it pretty clear that each universe has their own versions of the 5 rings, like how the time travel in U7 created a ring even in U11, so no, each universe having its own version of the 5 rings doesn't mean that more than 5 of them exist, each universe only has each version of the 5, nothing more, it is made pretty clear that only 5 exist, if there were more, then there would be more in the box Gowasu showed

The website itself mentions that Kaioshin are capable of going to parallel worlds in their Universes

nope, it is said that it allows them to travel to other timelines, it is never said "parallel worlds in their Universes"

THERE ISN'T A ROOM FULL OF TIME RINGS, did you even read the OP? such assumption that there is time rings in the other cabinets is both unfounded and contradicted by the statements in the series, the singular box with five is said to be ALL OF THEM, therefore that can't be MORE THAN 5 IN U11

each universe has their versions of the 5 rings, true, they time travel to the future of the timeline, not the future only within their universes, such a thing isn't said in your link at all

Yes, there is solid evidence that the work works with MWI, the website itself mentions it, talking about time travel

there isn't, a secondary source that contradicts what is said in the source material then it can be ignored, if it is talking about Time Travel creating prallel worlds.......then yeah? again, that is also considered in the OP

Parallel Worlds and Time Paradoxes

a real physicist talking about the theory irl matters for the logic in verse because? outside the fact that Whis, Gowasu and the entire Black arc contradicts this

have you.......have you read the OP? that scan is used there, that isn't talking about each action creating alternate worlds, but that time travel creates alternate worlds, also no, THOUSANDS OF TIMELINES BEING CREATED, that is nothing you inventing things that aren't there at all

Furthermore, in the anime itself it is shown that there are other parallel worlds besides those mentioned in Universe 10

Goku Black is reliable beause? he himself says he doesn't what that is, he is but speculating, even then, what he speculates isn't that it is a portal to another timeline, but to another universe or that it is to the past or the future, considering that from there mist clones come from it is made quite clear it is something else

Not only that, but the following is said on the official Dragon Ball website



In other words, MWI continues to exist, many futures are created by some nonsense, so the Multiverse still continues to be 2-B with MWI.

first of all, secondary source is ignored when it contradicts the the main source

second of all, this is going AGAINST MWI, this one is corroborating with the idea that alternate Timelines are only born when one changes history with time travel, meanwhile MWI works by making all possibilities become new timelines, so again, this isn't proof for MWI or against the OP, but proof IN FAVOR OF THE OP, aka AGAINST MWI

And to begin with, you don't even know the real reason Dragon Ball toei, GT exists with an alternative line, GT has his canon demonstrated to exist in the same Universe as Dr. Slump,

as i said to DDM, this contradicts the Series with the number of Time rings and their explanation, Dr Slump referencing GT is nothing more than a 4th wall break that is common in Dr Slump

film existing in the same multiverse, all multiverses are connected by the work itself that shows it exists in the shared multiverse and existing as alternate lines like Trunks'.

i know the statements of secondary cannon guides......however, they are not very useful when the main series contradicts it as it VERY CLEARLY does

Dragon Ball itself says that Arale lives next to the city where all the events in the story take place and Goku can also travel to Penguin Village via teleportation



If you have any doubts about this, look at the manga itself, where even the characters exist in the same location as Dr Slump

never claimed Dr Slump isn't cannon and i have no idea why you think you need to prove this, try not to clog this thread ok?

TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu

(ドラゴンボールZ 孫悟空伝説) is a guide released by Shueisha on October 3, 2003. This guide covers the episodes of the original Dragon Ball Z anime. Its "sequel" is TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Densetsu.

again, this is but going AGAINST MWI as it is saying that one create alternate worlds by DIRECT MANIPULATION OF HISTORY/TIME TRAVEL, so once again, this isn't proving MWI but it is going AGAINST IT

Even if you want to render DBGT, Toei, and all the films, they still exist as an alternate timeline according to Shueisha itself.

x.com

x.com

DBGT Alternate Timeline Revision Part 1: relax nothing really changes

"GT is also accepted as one of those endless possibilities/alternate timelines with Toriyama stating it’s a grand side-story and Shuiesha recognizing GT as canon in the chronological events of timelines presented in the screening." very simple stuff, it was recently accepted that dbgt is...

vsbattles.com

this was already rejected and removed, you even agreed with it when it was removed, quite weird you are using now eh?, don't use non accepted information please

Furthermore, even Daima himself treats Dragon Ball as part of the Dragon Ball timeline, but of course, all of this exists in an alternative timeline

nothing about this says anything of what you are saying, it only shows recaps of the anime over years to celebrate its longevity, nothing about timelines at all

 

[Omegabronic]

People are allowed to vote, I often vote but change in stance when more counterarguments arrive. So it's not like Damage or Maverick are doing anything wrong.

btw currently me and Luffy are in "ignore" mode with each other's posts, as this is making difficult for me to see his posts to get notifications, could you deactivate the ignore function for me and him for the time of this thread? just so that we can talk more easily since we will obviously be arguing against each other

That is a fair point, but I still have other concerns.

I do for example still think using Toriyama's illustration which was something he actually planned to write for his original manga, but hasn't gotten around to it and basically finished it during the ongoing production of the Anime. But he clearly has intended it to be part of the original manga and is shown to be consistent with the Anime statements. Those that's just an example that can be used to indexing both as a baseline, but I pretty much agree that in other areas it may not be 1 to 1 when it comes to other details.

pretty sure all of those things, including the map, were rejected in this thread before

Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

This is my tribute to the passing of the great Akira Toriyama I'm going further than that, i'm even saying that all the material in the Dragon Ball Z anime is canon to the main one, this original story and complements all of Akira's original work Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 10 (Supplementary): TV...

vsbattles.com

altho the point about they sharing cosmology aspects without alternate worlds logic, which isn't what is used currently, would be better suited for another thread


for the moment, what is your position about them being or not alternate worlds and the seeminly statements against MWI/2-B number of timelines? that is what this thread is about

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I forgot to mention this, where the official website lists works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Z as part of the story.



In addition to the Toei website treating Dragon Ball GT as an original series

"Dragon Ball GT" is the third installment of the "Dragon Ball" TV anime series! The original comic book written by Akira Toriyama was serialized in Weekly Shonen Jump for about 11 years (December 1984 to November 1995) and was a great success!

This original story was portrayed in the anime Dragon Ball' and Dragon Ball Z." And "Dragon Ball GT" is an original version of the anime that portrays the "after" of the original work! This is a new Son Goku adventure story, a little different from the comics!

source

If this isn't part of the timeline i don't know what is...

 

[Omegabronic]

Now regarding the films










You can find this interview with Akira Toriyama here

Being a parallel story does not take away its canonicity, in fact if it is parallel i imagine it coexists with the original work

1 none of these statements are saying that the movies are alternate timelines

2 even if they were, iirc you already tried to use them and they were rejected

3 even if they were saying that the movies are alternate timelines......all the overwhelming evidence saying the opposite in the OP takes precedence as it is in the series itself, thus this would fall under death of the author it is the name of the term, it is just unfortunate under this context

 

[Omegabronic]

I forgot to mention this, where the official website lists works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Z as part of the story.



In addition to the Toei website treating Dragon Ball GT as an original series





source

If this isn't part of the timeline i don't know what is...

"part of the timeline" no, GT has too many plotholes with Super to be in the same timeline as it

also.......yeah, they are describing GT as it was broadcasted and as an original animation(which it is regardless)........what is this supposed to prove regarding if it is or not a cannon alternate timeline? this quite literally never mentions it at all

 

[Omegabronic]

btw @LuffyRuffy46307 Ant only allowed you to, in his words, make a "few" well written and explained posts, he didn't gave permission of unlimited posts, so i suggest to tone it town and stop the spam of several posts, just edit your earlier posts to put new evidence

 

[Deagonx]

The arguments in the OP make sense to me

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Omega come on, i know you can do better than that, try a little harder, i know you can...

Dude, literally the creator of the work mentioned that the films are original, existing in the same multiverse, in fact I had it closed to create a blog about the shared cosmology, but solid arguments from the author and creator himself are worth more than a simple guess, it's okay for you to disagree with something.

I can't see your comments, because you've been blocked, so I don't know if I'll be able to answer you properly, but you can see his own work where the little guy has a lot of knowledge about the other parallel worlds.


Secondary guides only answer obvious what the work itself has shown, in addition not even you yourself believe that there are only 5 rings, all trips caused by Trunks created several parallel worlds, and those 5 are only from Universe 10, where Shin demonstrated to have a time ring, proving that Universe 7 itself has more other parallel worlds and removing all the Universes that contain their own Universe, besides that you are not an authority to contradict the work itself



Besides, the Dragon Ball website itself is referring to the time machine, all questions are related to the work itself, you have no authority to assume that it should not be used as additional evidence

"How Do Time Machines Work? Asking an Expert about Time Travel in Dragon Ball"

[How Do Time Machines Work? Asking an Expert about Time Travel in Dragon Ball] | DRAGON BALL OFFICIAL SITE

Around the beginning of Dragon Ball's Cell arc, a mysterious young man appears b

en.dragon-ball-official.com

 

[Antvasima]

I think that LuffyRuffy can continue to post here, but he should keep it to informative posts, with no spamming.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega come on, i know you can do better than that, try a little harder, i know you can...

of the few posts you were allowed to make, wasting them in jabs is not very wise, i suggest dropping it

Dude, literally the creator of the work mentioned that the films are original

because they, just as every original production based on any franchise is, this truly proves nothing

existing in the same multiverse

when does Akira says this? none of the links you showed him saying anything like this

in fact I had it closed to create a blog about the shared cosmology

3 mods disagreed with that thread, it was rejected, that is not in discussion

but solid arguments from the author and creator himself are worth more than a simple guess, it's okay for you to disagree with something.

"simple guess"..........i did not guesses, i am using the series itself and its several evidences against there being innumerable timelines, the author does not have more credential than the series itself

I can't see your comments, because you've been blocked, so I don't know if I'll be able to answer you properly,

so how about we remove that mutual block for the time being? just so that we can talk properly?

but you can see his own work where the little guy has a lot of knowledge about the other parallel worlds.

which again, isn't as much as the deities themselves, also you ingoring all evidence in the OP in favor of one scene, which can be interpreted as "traveling to the future will create a new timeline, thus we can access new timelines like that" to fall in line with everything else said in the series about alternate timelines, is to say the minimum, weird

Secondary guides only answer obvious what the work itself has shown

not really, as i have shown, the work goes AGAINST uncountable timelines multiple times, the guides are contradicting the series not supporting

, in addition not even you yourself believe that there are only 5 rings, all trips caused by Trunks created several parallel worlds, and those 5 are only from Universe 10, where Shin demonstrated to have a time ring, proving that Universe 7 itself has more other parallel worlds and removing all the Universes that contain their own Universe

as i said earlier, each universe has a version of said 5 rings, the time travel in u7 making a time ring in u11 shows that they are for the whole timeline, not for the individual universes, also Trunks is only ever noted to have created 1 parallel world, and in the end of the Black arc only 1 is ever said to have been created, so no, to say that he created several parallel is factually wrong and goes against the series

besides that you are not an authority to contradict the work itself

again, see the top part, jabs are not the best use of your very limited amount of posts you were allowed to make here, you should use your space better

Besides, the Dragon Ball website itself is referring to the time machine, all questions are related to the work itself, you have no authority to assume that it should not be used as additional evidence

"How Do Time Machines Work? Asking an Expert about Time Travel in Dragon Ball"

[How Do Time Machines Work? Asking an Expert about Time Travel in Dragon Ball] | DRAGON BALL OFFICIAL SITE

Around the beginning of Dragon Ball's Cell arc, a mysterious young man appears b

en.dragon-ball-official.com

i don't need autority to see that the scientist there is talking about theory irl, as he himself says it so

besides, even if he wasn't, he would be contradicting the series, so this tertiary at best source would be ignored as the main work itself has prevalence over it

 

[Omegabronic]

I think that LuffyRuffy can continue to post here, but he should keep it to informative posts, with no spamming.

just to know, you said "a few" in your permission, how many is that? or did you meant endless post permission? confused here is all

also, could you remove the "block" function that is making me and him unable to see eachother's posts? makes it very hard for us to argue our point if we can't see eachother's posts and do not get notifications

 

[Antvasima]

just to know, you said "a few" in your permission, how many is that? or did you meant endless post permission? confused here is all

I initially meant a few, but we need the opposition to be able to make a case here as well, so I extended the amount.

I do not know if LuffyRuffy is the best member to make a counter-argument though, or if he wants a member who is more knowledgeable about Dragon Ball to take over.

also, could you remove the "block" function that is making me and him unable to see eachother's posts? makes it very hard for us to argue our point if we can't see eachother's posts and do not get notifications

I have done so.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I also want to mention that it's not just time travel that can create other timelines, but also influences from third parties, such as Beerus erasing Zamasu in the present



The manga also mentions that Beerus can create a new timeline



What is confirmed later




What is confirmed by the website itself, where you don't need to go to the past to create new parallel worlds

So just to clarify, even if you never step foot in a time machine, the decisions you make from moment-to-moment spawn new universes...?!

Prof. Futamase: Precisely.

Dr Slump which also has shared cosmology, there are several other timelines existing and Dr Slump exists in the same Universe as Dragon Ball

I don't think Omega's argument is enough to unmask 2-B or anything like that, it's up to the administrators to see my points and decide


@Antvasima If i can, i can hand over my weights to @ProfectusInfinity he has great knowledge like me

 

[Omegabronic]

For personal reasons, i would like to have this thread closed for now, kind of "on pause"

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

For personal reasons, i would like to have this thread closed for now, kind of "on pause"

Very well.

 

[Omegabronic]

Asked this to be re open after much thought

I also want to mention that it's not just time travel that can create other timelines, but also influences from third parties, such as Beerus erasing Zamasu in the present

Which only happened due to time travel, as Zamasu wasn't originally erased, but since trunks changed things to make Beerus erase him, another timeline was created, aka exactly how it is explained that changing history is the only way to create new timelines

What is confirmed by the website itself, where you don't need to go to the past to create new parallel worlds

The scientis is, again, talking about IRL theories and not about the series itself, the way he explains doesn't line up with your example at all, and as i showed in the thread multiple times, the series directly goes against anything but direct changes in history creating new timelines

Also, Dr Slump is in the same seeting, but we don't cross scale its cosmology to DB, hence why DB Earth isn't 4 Billion KM long like the Dr Slump one

Again, DBS very strongly says that the only way to create new timelines is with time travel/changes in history

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with Omega about MWI not being in any way supported or used in dragon ball.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

But he clearly has intended it to be part of the original manga and is shown to be consistent with the Anime statements. Those that's just an example that can be used to indexing both as a baseline

Now that you mention it... I can't help but raise a concern about this thread's premise.

All alternate worlds we currently accept as cannon alternate worlds, such as the Toei Anime, all the movies, DBGT, etc, should now be considered non-cannon alternate worlds, aka not part of the cannon cosmology, and vice versa, the main cannon shouldn't be considered a cannon alternate timeline to them as well, since no time travel made in the main cannon could have created them and the number of Time Rings/Alternate world in super doesn't add up taking them into consideration, as such, cosmological elements currently shared because of it will now not be shared anymore

Why precisely would this be the natural outcome of the multiverse being reduced to several timelines? You're under the impression that we composite the cosmologies only because they're accepted as alternate timelines, when the vote from the last thread determined that the cosmologies would be composited irregardless.

GT/Movies being canon as alternate timelines:

Agree: 5 (@Lonkitt) @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima

Disagree: 4 (@Deagonx @Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @KingTempest)

Neutral: @LephyrTheRevanchist)

Composite cosmology independent of them being canon-alternate timeline:

Agree: 4 (@Lonkitt @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000) @LephyrTheRevanchist)(Agrees that the cosmology elements worked on by Toriyama on Z specifically are retained on both) @Antvasima (yes he agreed) @DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree: 3 (@Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @KingTempest) @Deagonx

Neutral:
This is the correct one

All the major staff in favor of a composite cosmology voted for both options at the same time, which should retain the composite cosmology even if the Teoiverse installations aren't parallel worlds to the main continuity.

 

[TiltedFN]

So what exactly does this change? Besides the number of timelines obviously, I'm a bit confused.

 

[Omegabronic]

Why precisely would this be the natural outcome of the multiverse being reduced to several timelines? You're under the impression that we composite the cosmologies only because they're accepted as alternate timelines, when the vote from the last thread determined that the cosmologies would be composited irregardless.

it was pretty split between staff actually, i counted the votes myself in that thread, the tally you are linking misinterpreted some people's positions which was pointed out

the true vote difference was of merely 1 for each side, therefore no real conclusion was ever made in that thread

All the major staff in favor of a composite cosmology voted for both options at the same time, which should retain the composite cosmology even if the Teoiverse installations aren't parallel worlds to the main continuity.

1 those weren't used for the justification nor were they ever implemented
2 a recent thread tried to implement them and more and it was rejected https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-canon.167216/

the current justification for composited cosmology is purely the fact that they are currently accepted as cannon alternate worlds.....that's it, and the other evidences of them being composited anyway were also rejected, so.......no, the current tally of what is accepted doesn't consider the statements that would suggest shared cosmology as remaining without them being cannon parallel worlds at all

 

[Omegabronic]

So what exactly does this change? Besides the number of timelines obviously, I'm a bit confused.

i put it in the conclusion section, guys come oooonnnn

All alternate worlds we currently accept as cannon alternate worlds, such as the Toei Anime, all the movies, DBGT, etc, should now be considered non-cannon alternate worlds, aka not part of the cannon cosmology, and vice versa, the main cannon shouldn't be considered a cannon alternate timeline to them as well, since no time travel made in the main cannon could have created them and the number of Time Rings/Alternate world in super doesn't add up taking them into consideration, as such, cosmological elements currently shared because of it will now not be shared anymore

 

[Ednaxel2]

Conclusion​

All alternate worlds we currently accept as cannon alternate worlds, such as the Toei Anime, all the movies, DBGT, etc, should now be considered non-cannon alternate worlds, aka not part of the cannon cosmology, and vice versa, the main cannon shouldn't be considered a cannon alternate timeline to them as well, since no time travel made in the main cannon could have created them and the number of Time Rings/Alternate world in super doesn't add up taking them into consideration, as such, cosmological elements currently shared because of it will now not be shared anymore

I feel really dumb for not realizing this part exists, mb for what I said before lol

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima If i can, i can hand over my weights to @ProfectusInfinity he has great knowledge like me

That seems fine to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

pretty sure all of those things, including the map, were rejected in this thread before

That thread was a long time ago and I believe it was before Executor N0 evaluated the translations and pointed out that the project was being worked on well before there was even Anime adaptation for Dragon Ball Z and implied it would mainly be for his original manga. Which was commonly assumed to just be for the Toei version. But all versions of Dragon Ball quite literally have the whole "Otherworld being separated from the Living World by barriers of space and time" ultimately causing the cosmology of U7 to be 2-C sized one. Was mainly something ProfectusInfinity was I believe was trying to argue for iirc.

Of course other details might be legit; there is no proof Toei continuity has their own version of Universes 1-6 and 8-12 next to U7, or possibly the 6 universes erased by Zeno long ago, or their versions of GoD per universe, their angels per universe, or even their own version of Zeno-sama. But even outside of those, there is most definately 2-C scaling minimum.

 

[Omegabronic]

That thread was a long time ago and I believe it was before Executor N0 evaluated the translations and pointed out that the project was being worked on well before there was even Anime adaptation for Dragon Ball Z and implied it would mainly be for his original manga. Which was commonly assumed to just be for the Toei version.

Actually iirc another thread with that taken into account, that being Luffy's thread i linked here a feel times already, and it was rejected, if someone wanted to do another thread to make it accepted they are free, but i wouldn't want to do that with this thread when it was rejected prior, also iirc Exe's translation were taken into account in the old thread as well

as we stand the only justification given for shared cosmology is that they are cannon timelines, that's all we have currently

But all versions of Dragon Ball quite literally have the whole "Otherworld being separated from the Living World by barriers of space and time" ultimately causing the cosmology of U7 to be 2-C sized one. Was mainly something ProfectusInfinity was I believe was trying to argue for iirc.

Afaik we don't have this information outside of the toei anime, Besides, space time barriers would proove space time, but not the size which, again, is only given via cross scaling with toei, making the universe low 2-C

Of course other details might be legit; there is no proof Toei continuity has their own version of Universes 1-6 and 8-12 next to U7, or possibly the 6 universes erased by Zeno long ago, or their versions of GoD per universe, their angels per universe, or even their own version of Zeno-sama. But even outside of those, there is most definately 2-C scaling minimum.

If it is because of some new founded statements of production with Akira not already used in luffy's thread(which would surprise me with the sheer amount he used) that would suggest the share of cosmology.......well everyone's free to a new thread to try and make that accepted, but as we stand currently, that isn't used to justify the composited cosmology

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That seems fine to me.

Ant, i would like to know what your opinion is on the counter arguments.

 

[Ednaxel2]

If this gets accepted, we'd need to redo the speed scaling too since we use the afterlife size from the toei canon, we'd have to calc it again in someway