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Does this have the mechanisms to be a Type 1 Concept?

TheUnshakableOne

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VS Battles
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Is the below information show enough properties, and nature, to be classified as a Type 1 Concept?

Karma is the framework that makes up everything in existence, and that is shown to us. it is more fundamental than "The essence of an individual" as it resides deeper than "essence" and deeper, more fundamental than the mind, and soul. Of Which "This essence" holds the energy for people to use supernatural abilities and includes things like memories, life forces, and emotions. its completely independent of the multiverse because its the "force" that drives the multiverse through "change." This implies that it is completely independent of those realities, and it can exist without them as those realities can disappear, and be rebirthed inside of this "force." Karma is the reason for the whole cycle of Samsara.

Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.


It is an "abstract essence" that is "independent of reality" so that satisifies Ultimas criteria.

"However, concepts should be... general... to use a vague term. Concepts, in our usage of them, are to laws of nature, what laws of nature are to matter. They are the cause of the laws, in a certain sense, and dictate how they work. Or perhaps it would be better to say they are the cause of the properties of the objects which dictate, based on the laws, how things work."DontTalk (DT)


"Changing the property of a flame to make it cold mean you change the property "being hot" into the property "being cold". Meanwhile, concept manip would take the property "being hot" and let the flame remain hot. Instead, it would make it so that things that are hot behave like being cold.
If inverting gravity is gravity manipulation, but changing the nature of gravity is law manipultion, then inverting a property should be property manipulation, but changing the nature of the property itself would be concept manipulation. That might be a good way to put it."

Also DontTalk (TD)


"I mean, we could change Type 3 to that if everyone prefers, but I see quite a big difference between changing the property of something and changing the nature of the property (i.e. concept) itself. One thing affects the object, the other thing affects the property. The target is different. As said, like the difference between manipulating gravity and changing the nature of gravity itself.
As long as it's separated it probably isn't vastly important what it is listed as, but separated it should be." - DT



Those aren't two separate definitions. It's two parts of the same definition. A Type 1 Concept has to be independent of reality and be a source of a property to those things that participate in them.

I'm not sure why you assume concepts can't participate in other concepts due to this definition. They don't have to be independent of other concepts, but from the governed reality i.e. the actual world. See this in contrast to Type 2 where alteration of every object governed can cause alteration of the concept.

Also, just in case, will point out that time, space and causality aren't concepts in themselves. They are actual non-abstract things. There are separate concepts of time, space and causality.


Thing is, all of this could also apply for type 3. Type 2 is more for concepts that aren't just abstractions of a single thing and more for concepts that grant a property to reality at large (like "circleness" making all circles round.) Ichibe seems to deal more with individual names of people.
Like, changing the name Yhwach probably affected nobody else that was named Yhwach besides his target.


But on the general level, what we have to this point would be:
Manipulating names as abstract things is either concept type 3 or 2. Per default it's 3, but if there is proof that the character can modify a name to not just modify the properties given by the name to one target, but all targets in some governed reality that share that name, it would be 2.


Krama changes the nature of anything inside of it. It dictates the properties, and nature of anything it has inside of it. As it is 1 of the 2 "principles of the world/true nature of the world." It controls the "force" that govern reincarnation, to controlling the "force" that governs the causality to controlling the "force" that causes "flow." It controls every phenomenon in nature and even Binds everything as an achor to "reality." it also acts as an anchor to ensure "fate." is running its course.
 
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DontTalk's is hyper specific which pretty much you can hardly find in fiction
true...

I feel like there should be an explanation somewhere for things that "act like" concepts when its not stated to be a "concept" because sometimes you have to string together a series of unconnected scans for a verse that has a lot of content to figure it out.
 
The basic knowledgea about concept is: abstract concept/idea that govern something in physical reality, manipulating it will create change to the thing is govern/influence. So Ultima's reason is slightly less strict which rather than force a namedrop, if something that is abstract in nature and behave like concept then sure it is concept, which you can find many out there, Lavos, Chaos Energy, etc.....
 
There was supposed to be "Essence Manipulation" which tbh will cover for what you mentioned, but I'm told Essence manipulation is between Concept and Manipulation and Information Manipulation Type 2 so idk
 
There was supposed to be "Essence Manipulation" which tbh will cover for what you mentioned, but I'm told Essence manipulation is between Concept and Manipulation and Information Manipulation Type 2 so idk
I'm told the exact same thing.... and it's confusing...
 
Depend on contexts, but yeah, generally speaking Essence Manipulation is somewhere between Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation

There is also supposely Abstract Manipulation......but bruhh it isn't that much different from Conceptual Manipulation
 
Depend on contexts, but yeah, generally speaking Essence Manipulation is somewhere between Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation

There is also supposely Abstract Manipulation......but bruhh it isn't that much different from Conceptual Manipulation
When did that become a thing? I've never heard of it.

Wait... abstract existence?
 
When did that become a thing? I've never heard of it.

Wait... abstract existence?
Hmm, it is a power that manipulate anything that is abstract, but not fall under concept, iirc QuasiYuri and DontTalk suggested it but got buried because no one care. The most common is manipulating Name. But it pretty useless and redundant, since like Ultima said, manipulating something that is abstract in nature and in turn make change to reality, is under conceptual manipulation bruhh
 
Hmm, it is a power that manipulate anything that is abstract, but not fall under concept, iirc QuasiYuri and DontTalk suggested it but got buried because no one care. The most common is manipulating Name. But it pretty useless and redundant, since like Ultima said, manipulating something that is abstract in nature and in turn make change to reality, is under conceptual manipulation bruhh
The double standards....
 
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