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:mjlol:
Did you like...are you up to date? Muzan literally gave the Throne to Salt and didn't bother fighting back
furthermore the time manipulation was done to affect SALT HIMSELF not Muzan
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Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
- Start date
- Status
:mjlol:
Did you like...are you up to date? Muzan literally gave the Throne to Salt and didn't bother fighting back
furthermore the time manipulation was done to affect SALT HIMSELF not Muzan
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Muzan not trying to fight back doesn't somehow lower his stats to below 1-A, wouldn't make sense for him to be effected for time manip when he is supposed to be above all extensions of it just because he isn't fighting back
Also why would it be said that it is a time manipulation that created a parallel universe if he just used it to...affect himself?
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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Oh this, this was the city that was cut off from the rest of creation and
Anyway its irrelevant anyway
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I'm going to stay neutral for now; but Yuri did make a very elaborate OP so far, but like to give Sleepy a chance to counter IIRC was the main opposition to the OP.
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Sleepy said he wouldn't involve himself more in the last thread if I'm not mistaken.
Edit: Just saw Sleepy's comment, so I likely misunderstood I guess.
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This is correct, yes. Everybody please try to calm down and stay civil.
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No i won't
I wanted to explain the misconception about Salt but its whatever, not worth the time
I wanted to explain the misconception about Salt but its whatever, not worth the time
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Hello. As I have exams very soon, I might not be able to contribute for now. If I get free time later, sure, I can try. Apologies.
For now I am Neutral, I believe the defending side needs some time to sort out its quotes and any potential counter (ditto for opposing) before deciding wether this fits into the tiering system. They're those who read KKK after all.
Have a nice day everyone.
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Alright, I've heard some new arguments from people on Discord who are knowledgeable on Shinza Banshō, so here we go:
According to an explanation of the history of the cosmology, creation was initially only a single, four-dimensional universe.By the time of Mercurius' reign, however, he modified creation to be a twelve-dimensional multiverse. The world then expanded even further when Hajun took the Throne, to twenty-four dimensions.
However, all of this is still contained within creation, which from the perspective of a God, is like a canvas that can be painted over at will. This is what leads us to this analogy:
Actually, speaking of the Throne, there is one piece of text given out (without a scan, but the provider is an expert on Shinza Banshō, IIRC) which describes it as follows:
Finally, it may be of interest to note that Yakou Madara, someone whose effective Taiji value is 0 due to him lacking a color (i.e., a desire) and therefore doesn't count as a God, can create higher-dimensional barriers, while a Hadou God with as little as 1 Taiji can potentially access the Throne which, as established, sits at the limit of higher dimensions and thus would encompass them as a principle. Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that.
According to an explanation of the history of the cosmology, creation was initially only a single, four-dimensional universe.
However, all of this is still contained within creation, which from the perspective of a God, is like a canvas that can be painted over at will. This is what leads us to this analogy:
These scans talk about how what is drawn in a painting, no matter how realistic it may be, can never affect the painter. Meanwhile, the painter can easily destroy this painting if they so chose. I think we all are well aware of the fact that creation is compared to a canvas that whoever holds the Throne can paint on at will, so I hope I don't need to elaborate on that. The point is that the canvas of creation can accommodate higher dimensions without issue.
Actually, speaking of the Throne, there is one piece of text given out (without a scan, but the provider is an expert on Shinza Banshō, IIRC) which describes it as follows:
With this in mind, the Throne's description as 超次元 (chō jigen) can much more easily be interpreted as meaning "beyond dimensions." It should be viewed as a supportive detail and not as a critical argument, though.
Finally, it may be of interest to note that Yakou Madara, someone whose effective Taiji value is 0 due to him lacking a color (i.e., a desire) and therefore doesn't count as a God, can create higher-dimensional barriers, while a Hadou God with as little as 1 Taiji can potentially access the Throne which, as established, sits at the limit of higher dimensions and thus would encompass them as a principle. Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that.
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KingPin brought up some valuable points to me as well. He seems to make sense now.
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A correction to my previous post: Mercurius' world didn't have any higher dimensions. The 12-D thing was in reference to Muzan's multiverse, and it was also ten dimensions, not twelve. Even then, the "dimensions" aren't literal dimensions according to another Shinza Banshō expert, since they correspond to the Sephiroth of the Kabbalah, with the Throne where Muzan dwells being the Sephirah of Kether.
Also, I noticed that the above translation I gave (the one regarding the Throne) is a DeepL translation, and those are known to be inaccurate. So, to make sure that I didn't make a big mistake, I ran it through two online translators (Google Translate and Yandex), and they both said the same thing. I even broke down the sentence itself, and I noticed that it contained the kanji for "kō jigen" (高次元).
My arguments may not be enough to 100% save the 1-A rating, but it still gives a reasonable case for it, IMO.
Also, I noticed that the above translation I gave (the one regarding the Throne) is a DeepL translation, and those are known to be inaccurate. So, to make sure that I didn't make a big mistake, I ran it through two online translators (Google Translate and Yandex), and they both said the same thing. I even broke down the sentence itself, and I noticed that it contained the kanji for "kō jigen" (高次元).
My arguments may not be enough to 100% save the 1-A rating, but it still gives a reasonable case for it, IMO.
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I've read up KingPin's stuff about Merc modifying the world up to 12D. Which kinda made me still wanna defend 1-A key.
In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.
Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.
Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
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I'm more annoyed on the misconceptions here cuz its ridiculous to many extents
Btw what kingpin mentions does exist in the throne page of atwiki which is a pretty accurate wiki on shinza and masada works in general.
Last i checked the cut the tenma statement was aimed to numahime who is the mother of all distortions so she not only didn't care, she shoved a better cut up his face (iirc even they were kikei boosted so it wasn't "natural").
Technically PL has higher dimensions since the angels need to be killed by higher dimensional energy (anti-angels can only interact the lower worlds via hosts)
I have to add yakou's essential value being 0 due to a lack of desire has reached the throne (he still had taiji doe).
And yes Marie has taiji due to being a gudou but with an unknown value.
Btw what kingpin mentions does exist in the throne page of atwiki which is a pretty accurate wiki on shinza and masada works in general.
Last i checked the cut the tenma statement was aimed to numahime who is the mother of all distortions so she not only didn't care, she shoved a better cut up his face (iirc even they were kikei boosted so it wasn't "natural").
And there is the fact higher dimensions exist unless you are really trying to downplay it to 1-B levels because we don't have a pure number other than how worthless such things are to a taiji user, the throne and singulairty. Like again all this hinges on 2 things that saying higher D = not being above dimenions and 2 ignoring aspects of some of the plot (i mention time armor to also explain that yeah their statements say they are higher D to the EE but it doesn't mean they are bound to it
I said its because other circumstances had allowed him to block the others attacks but the moment ootake got serious he got ******. The 4th is cuz he has taiji not so I don't get it. Alrfy had explain why it worked and without that which did happen against Yakou he got fisted.
Technically PL has higher dimensions since the angels need to be killed by higher dimensional energy (anti-angels can only interact the lower worlds via hosts)
I have to add yakou's essential value being 0 due to a lack of desire has reached the throne (he still had taiji doe).
And yes Marie has taiji due to being a gudou but with an unknown value.
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By this, you mean that Madara was able to reach the Throne despite having an effective Taiji value of 0 (because his Taiji is colorless), right? The only way that that can make sense, as far as I can see, would be for Madara's Taiji to have matched Hajun's at that point. After all, Tenma Yato couldn't reach Hajun even after drilling through his Singularity for thousands of years.
Speaking of which, there is a quote talking about how the depth of the Singularity is defined and comparing its depth under Hajun's rule to its depth during Mercurius' reign:
I don't have any exact translations, unfortunately, and I'd rather not discuss how high into 1-A the Shinza Banshō Gods are until after we've made sure that they are 1-A to begin with, but the text I just posted above should be of interest.
I edited my big post up above a few times. I hope it still makes sense. It would be wise to wait for the supporters to compile evidence for rebuttals, though, since I'm not a Shinza Banshō expert by any means. I just wanted to post relevant findings.
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No no no Yakou only got in because he wasn't opposing Hajun's hadou. Gudous can slip in the singularity because they don't directly fight the godhead. Yato due to being a hadou MUST fight hajun's taiji while Yakou and the EE later were gudous thus they can dive in. Btw Yakou's value was only 2 anyway which is lowest known in the series.
Which is more to explain that in comparison to merc who is one of the strongest hadous that expanded the singularity, it would only take as long as a normal person holding their breath while Hajun's is so deep that its ridiculous (Yakou still reached it though).
Which is more to explain that in comparison to merc who is one of the strongest hadous that expanded the singularity, it would only take as long as a normal person holding their breath while Hajun's is so deep that its ridiculous (Yakou still reached it though).
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I hope i aint seeing anyone who is gonna say "You need infinite D and be above its concept to be 1-A"I've read up KingPin's stuff about Merc modifying the world up to 12D. Which kinda made me still wanna defend 1-A key.
In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.
Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
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The scans also directly talks about how Tenma’s are Higher-Dimensional compared to the painting. I know what logic you are getting at, but it interperting “No matter how fire is painted, it can’t burn the real world” as “Gods will be above higher infinities in canvas, no matter how many” needs sort of reaching.
This actually would just prove Throne is not 1-A since it calls it “extreme point of all higher dimensions” aka the highest point. It would still mean throne is dimensional. I also don’t think “extreme point” referd to anything more than being in top of already existing higher dimensions.
What exactly does this prove? If you mean to say she is above concept of dimensions because of that, that doesn’t grant 1-A on it’s own I believe and there are contradictions to that.
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What I'm trying to prove is Taiji is 1-A. Marie wouldnt exist outside The Worlds Concept without it anyways.
Which is?
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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So well I realized instead of trying to idk counter Yuri point by point, I will try and make my own explanation of the shinza banshou cosmology and hope o cover some of his point there. Please Yuri try and see cause I realized you had some misconceptions about the whole cosmology
N.B. Dont know how to post image here so I may just be copying and pasting statements directly if I can't find the said scans already on wiki
So here it goes
First taikyoku (taiji)
"Taikyoku" (in japanese, 太極) is just the romanized spelling of "Taiji" (in fact, the kanji read in KKK as Taikyoku literally mean "Taiji"). Taikyoku, simply put, is the Supreme Ultimate, the source of all of existence. In Taoist teachings, it's even the source of Yin and Yang. The concept is pretty much identical in Shinza. Taikyoku is the power of Gods in this universe. Hadou Gods, whose Taikyoku flows outwards from themselves, instead of generating an internal universe, are the source of what is perceived in Shinza as "reality". They are the sources of all phenomena, souls, and concepts.
I'm sure from what has been said and if you have read the shinza explanation page you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater......., so I will just skip and try and explain it
As Yakou tells us, Taikyoku is a Law which is absolute in regards to the World, and its nature is also enough to identificate its originator. He went further to say the laws and orders the world follows are mere physics and taikyoku is something, basically no matter what the law is the moment it become taikyoku the rest of creation follows suit(no matter the layers btw)
Now yakou made this quote also
み森羅万象から外れるという太極である。
Translation: My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
Taikyoku is the basis of reality in Shinza, not just a simple power. That reality you see in each game? It's the outflow of a Hadou God's Taikyoku. Souls, space, time, concepts, physics, even emotions, Taikyoku is the source of everything. And fights between Gods is basically painting over their opponent's worlds with their own Taikyoku. And Values determine The strength of these Laws They originate.
if you even have a value of 1 Taikyoku you are already above all reality including concepts, universes, multiverses and dimensions since they all originate from the taikyoku.
Basically everything originates from the taikyoku that powers the gods and the rest of creation (including everything in it dimensions, laws or whatever) was called a picture on multiple occasions in fact emanation was said to be a painting that uses the entire creation as its canvas,
And vs wiki standards is
"However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size."
Yes same way a picture or a painting can never affect reality I dont think expanding the layers of something they view as picture would even be enough to even reach their level of power.
The whole misconception comes from thinking taiji is a creation feat, no its way more than that its the source of creation like a painter is the source of its painting and the painting can't even reach the painter level of power.
I mean when soujiro tried to cut ootake the narrator said it's not cause of ootake durability but simply cause a fire depicted in a picture can never harm reality and ootake is simply disconnected from soujiro and the rest of creation.
Taikyoku gives them control of everything in creation while disconnecting them from it, (idg it will be really idk to say dimensions are not part of the said creation tbat taikyoku disconnects them from and also statements of the throne been in a beyond dimensional space e.t.c.)
I believe this is the explanation of taikyoku to the extent in which I can simplify it.
Would love to continue but I think I've rambled enough
N.B. Dont know how to post image here so I may just be copying and pasting statements directly if I can't find the said scans already on wiki
So here it goes
First taikyoku (taiji)
"Taikyoku" (in japanese, 太極) is just the romanized spelling of "Taiji" (in fact, the kanji read in KKK as Taikyoku literally mean "Taiji"). Taikyoku, simply put, is the Supreme Ultimate, the source of all of existence. In Taoist teachings, it's even the source of Yin and Yang. The concept is pretty much identical in Shinza. Taikyoku is the power of Gods in this universe. Hadou Gods, whose Taikyoku flows outwards from themselves, instead of generating an internal universe, are the source of what is perceived in Shinza as "reality". They are the sources of all phenomena, souls, and concepts.
I'm sure from what has been said and if you have read the shinza explanation page you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater......., so I will just skip and try and explain it
As Yakou tells us, Taikyoku is a Law which is absolute in regards to the World, and its nature is also enough to identificate its originator. He went further to say the laws and orders the world follows are mere physics and taikyoku is something, basically no matter what the law is the moment it become taikyoku the rest of creation follows suit(no matter the layers btw)
Now yakou made this quote also
み森羅万象から外れるという太極である。
Translation: My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
Taikyoku is the basis of reality in Shinza, not just a simple power. That reality you see in each game? It's the outflow of a Hadou God's Taikyoku. Souls, space, time, concepts, physics, even emotions, Taikyoku is the source of everything. And fights between Gods is basically painting over their opponent's worlds with their own Taikyoku. And Values determine The strength of these Laws They originate.
if you even have a value of 1 Taikyoku you are already above all reality including concepts, universes, multiverses and dimensions since they all originate from the taikyoku.
Basically everything originates from the taikyoku that powers the gods and the rest of creation (including everything in it dimensions, laws or whatever) was called a picture on multiple occasions in fact emanation was said to be a painting that uses the entire creation as its canvas,
And vs wiki standards is
"However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size."
Yes same way a picture or a painting can never affect reality I dont think expanding the layers of something they view as picture would even be enough to even reach their level of power.
The whole misconception comes from thinking taiji is a creation feat, no its way more than that its the source of creation like a painter is the source of its painting and the painting can't even reach the painter level of power.
I mean when soujiro tried to cut ootake the narrator said it's not cause of ootake durability but simply cause a fire depicted in a picture can never harm reality and ootake is simply disconnected from soujiro and the rest of creation.
Taikyoku gives them control of everything in creation while disconnecting them from it, (idg it will be really idk to say dimensions are not part of the said creation tbat taikyoku disconnects them from and also statements of the throne been in a beyond dimensional space e.t.c.)
I believe this is the explanation of taikyoku to the extent in which I can simplify it.
Would love to continue but I think I've rambled enough
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1-A seems fine as I said before.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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Actually it does grants the rating if you exist above and outside the concept of dimensions it does grant 1-A
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The contradictions presented in the thread itself? Gods still being higher-dimensional and such
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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It was not a contradiction it was a narration of the existence of the gods
Or because yato narrated and called himself a man, he is a man??
Lol
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
- 6,000
Please how do I post picture scansI've read up KingPin's stuff about Merc modifying the world up to 12D. Which kinda made me still wanna defend 1-A key.
In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.
Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
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You need to use a link somehow. Like maybe post your pic in discord and copy the link and paste it here
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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ThanksYou need to use a link somehow. Like maybe post your pic in discord and copy the link and paste it here
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Yes, and that narration said they are Higher-Dimensional, and than there is Soujiro’s Higher-D slash being able to cut them...This point is getting sort of repetetive.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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Yes exactly what I said its a narration to explain the existence of the gods compared to others.
Or how do you narrate something like that??
Or because featherine was called a higher dimensional being that means she is bound by dimensions?
The outer gods were also narrated to be of higher dimensions when they are not even bound by dimensions.
Please and please its a narration of their existence not that it means they are bound by dimensions
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Indeed. It would be stupid that Takashi Masada would call the Gods Outerversal cuz Higher D is still bounded by Dimensions
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It's not contradict everything, their existence as higher being should be like that, and doesn't make their 1-A rating removed
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I shouldnt comment here because its staff only, but I need to say only 1 thing, being called Higher Dimensional shouldnt be a reason to lose their 1-A rating, in the same way that being called Higher Dimensional doesnt upgrade any tier
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- Thread starter
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When your entire tier is about being above any possible higher D stuff, it should be.
You wouldn't give immunity to soul manipulation to someone with a soul.
Anyway gonna answer stuff now.
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