I don't think so...if Diamond Realm Nanashi=Adam Kadmon then character like Aleph is top 3 strongest, which I don't think that's the case.
According to these comments, the scaling chain looks something like this:
Can't click on the link.
Yes that's true, but Nanashi has never fought a "full power" Stephen while Joker has damaged and tanked attack from enraged Adam Kadmon. The Stephen Nanashi fought is only playing around with them, you can see that he doesn't even has a defeat animation on the DLC.
Wasn't Stephen casual and also just testing the Messiahs? Unlike AK, who was out to kill the Phantom Thieves
They should be fine now. Thanks for letting me know.
Nanashi did, in fact, fight against full-power Stephen.
Stephen is explaining how he's having trouble restricting himself. If anything, that's more evidence to support that he is fighting at full power.
How does this support anything? All it means is that full-power Stephen has high durability.
He is absolutely not holding back. He verbatim says this is the first time he’s ever had to go all out.
This is also not true at all, Maruki had no intention of killing the Phantom Thieves - especially because he’s not even evil. He just says if he wins, he overrides all of existence for his reality, a world without suffering.
We also don’t use this anymore.
Chokmah and Binah < Tree = Kether < Realm Beyond the Earth and Heavens < YHVH's Universe < Monado < Stephen < Axiom
Is Stephen still equal to AK? Also, if Nanashi and the Messiahs have the potential to fight the Great Reason, wouldn't that add a "potentially higher" to their page?
That actually makes sense. Thanks, Luke and Milly. Though I think Joker still wins this one.
No, even Stephen isn't capable of doing that, not yet anyway. If we do that then every human on MegaTen would have it.
well, humans are said to have the most potential of all, so i can't see why not
While this is true, it is important to understand that any human in Megami Tensei can easily reactively evolve and grow at an extremely accelerated rate in order to face adversity.
I'm not sure where this notion comes from. There are major revisions being planned, but currently Stephen and AK are treated as being roughly equal.
You have a point there, but I'm afraid that I will have to show my point tomorrow gotta some work to do so see ya.
I didn't know this. What are some of the changes planned?
I like surprises! Keep up the hard work!!
I promised you a reply, so here is.
Nanashi certainly has an advantage in this regard, but Joker has dealt with users of Type 2 Cognition before - namely Yaldabaoth and Maruki. While Maruki severely limited his use of Actualization against the PTs because of their propinquity, Joker does have methods of dealing with most applications of Cognition.
(Just to clarify, they don't use Observation to rapidly evolve. Their RE/AD is simply an extension of certain characters' supernatural willpower). Joker's fatehax have already been shown to be effective against Takuto Maruki, who was reactively evolving during their fight.
I'm willing to bet that Nanashi's RE/AD would activate later than Joker's. The ability requires the user to have great resolve and be experiencing heightened emotions. If Nanashi is aware of the initial power gap between him and his opponent, which is likely to become apparent during the first moments of combat, then he'd have little reason to feel any consternation, thus preventing the ability from triggering.
Outside of being a Type 2 Cognition user, Stephen has no feats of fate manipulation. There's nothing to suggest he was using either ability on the Messiahs during their fight either.
Adam Kadmon is layers above Mr. Big Head ontologically, and as stated before, Joker's fatehax were able to affect him.
Okay, but Nanashi Observation stills far better because it's related to the Axiom itself, that is above Kadmon. Probably even better than Stephen since Stephen's observation wasn't enough to give form to Hero's soul as a stated before.
You have a good point there, he wouldn't feel so threatned to the point that he would fear Joker and then RE/AD. But still, I believe that his fate manipulation resistance must, somehow, scale with him, of course I cannot prove you this point, because for this I'd need someone that knows more. However, what I'm saying isn't that Joker's fatehax wouldn't work, I'm saying that just wouldn't be so effective. I don't know how much it affected Kadmon, but I presume it was kinda hard, since by what I saw you guys saying, he had a hard time dealing with him and had to manipulate Kadmon's weakness in order to win against him.
The Axiom bestowed a special, empowered version of Observation (Type 2) to Nanashi, but the potency of the ability doesn't scale to The Axiom itself. Adam Kadmon's Observation is of comparable potency, as he occupies the same layer of existence as Diamond Realm Nanashi.
Nanashi's resistance to fate manipulation simply comes from his ability to fight various demons who have jurisdiction over fate (such a Pisacas, who curse humans to die within nine months of meeting them). There's no evidence that Nanashi's fate resistance scales to his ontological standing, either. Joker's passive fate manipulation unbinds from any predetermined outcomes, which in the context of Megami Tensei, restricts beings who operate on a fundamentally different system of cause and effect. On a smaller scale, he's able to defy Chihaya's precognitive abilities, which are otherwise perfectly accurate.
It was an uphill battle, yes, but Maruki himself stated that he couldn't have won against the Phantom Thieves, even if he tried again. Regardless, Joker's fate manipulation is an entirely passive ability that Nanashi wouldn't be aware of.
I think you're misinterpreting me. Maruki was able to rapidly evolve during the fight, transforming his persona into Adam Kadmon.
Again, you're conflating Observation and RE/AD. The latter is activated through extreme willpower, emotion, and desire.
| "The phenomenon of Understanding, also referred to as Observation or Cognition, refers to the a special ability inherent to the human race in Megami Tensei, which allows the masses to influence, shape and command reality itself based on their collective thoughts and beliefs, controlling the underlying informational backdrop of all existence, which is identical in substance to human thought, and thus able to be influenced by it." |
| "But how would Joker's fatehax prevent Nanashi from starting to comprehend his chances of winning that battle and thus making it happen?" |
I never once asserted this? Here's what I said:
The word "latter" refers to the second of two mentioned objects, which in this case is RE/AD.
I never asserted this either. That last part is just blatantly incorrect as well, given that Cognition and the "will of the masses" are mentioned a multitude of times throughout both vanilla Persona 5 and Royal. My point was that Nanashi would have no way of determining Joker has fate manipulation, as it isn't something that is actively used by Joker.
I never said it would? When the battle begins, Nanashi would have an extremely noticeable advantage in terms of physical/magical prowess, which would become apparent as the battle continues. That's why Joker's RE/AD would activate and Nanashi's wouldn't.
When did Cognition ever effect a Type 5 Acausal?
I think it's plausible a Messiah's Observation can potentially even surpass Stephens. However, I am suspicious whether that's a valid feat, or if there were other factors that prevented Stephen from reviving the Hero. Stephen links the Hero's soul to Nanashi's and begins to fight the latter, believing that Nanashi's experiences and actions as Messiah will help the Hero remember his role, thus resurrecting him. To me it seems more like Stephen lacked the knowledge and identity of a Messiah to revive the Hero, as opposed to the potency.
Nobody in this thread has discussed the combat abilities of either character. If you're referring to raw power, we've already discussed RE/AD.
I can agree with an incon, due to ambiguous nature of both abilities. The entire debate revolves around whether or not Joker's fate manipulation works is resilient against (potentially) enhanced Type 2 Cognition, which is hard to prove either way. 1-A matches aren't allowed to be added to profiles anyway, and, as Milly stated, Megami Tensei is undergoing major revisions.
This is a rather odd claim, considering the fact that happens - all the time. Philemon & Nyarlathotep, YHVH are key examples.
I enjoy both series, I’m not one or the other.
I wonder how high Joker would scale
