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Deep Sea King, Tanktop Master & Genos CRT

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In trying to make a thread involving him, I was informed that Tanktop Master scales to Genos' Jet Drive Arrow (1.22 Megatons of TNT - Small City Level), and that Jet Drive Arrow scales to Genos' physicals. I disagreed with that, got told to make a CRT, and here I am.

I don't think that Tanktop Master should scale to Genos' Jet Drive Arrow, or Spiral Incineration Cannon if TTM is decided to scale to that too.
After taking and deflecting physical blows from Genos, Garou compared Genos to Tanktop Master, specifically saying that his "strength rivals Tanktop Master". Garou was implying this about Genos' striking strength, and then went on to speak about his heat cannon separately right after, acknowledging it as a separate threat from his physical strength.
Jet Drive Arrow doesn't rely on the heat cannon, but it does rely on extremely heavily powered boosters compared to the punches that Genos throws with rocket boosted arms at Garou.
Garou also didn't see Jet Drive Arrow or Spiral Incineration Cannon before he made that statement.

For the same reasons, Jet Drive Arrow should not set the bar for Post-Superfight Genos' physicals as a whole, its power should represent only the power of that move, or Genos' maximum physical capability.

The statement made by Garou doesn't set a standard for Tanktop Master to compare to Genos, it's the opposite. The time the statement was made was the first time seeing Genos' Post-Superfight upgrade, and its power was not yet proven through any major feats. Tanktop Master had already fought Garou, and his power had already been showcased, the statement should be used to set a baseline for Post-Superfight Genos' physical strength, as what Tanktop Master has been known to be capable of. This does however inform us that Tanktop Master is superior to Post-G4 Genos, which is better than anything he has actually showcased himself in series.

Post-G4 Genos defeated Hydrated Deep Sea King with just one rush of Machinegun Blows and a simple blast of his cannon. Post-Superfight Genos is supposed to be stronger than his previous upgrade and comparable to Tanktop Master in physical strength.

So Tanktop Master is vastly superior to Hydrated Sea King's High 7-C Tier, but that raises a problem, because that should probably keep Tanktop Master at Low 7-B, if not higher.

Then, why is Deep Sea King High 7-C? The blast which Deep Sea King tanks from BoS Genos is not the same as the blast which produced the High 7-C (113.9 Kilotons of TNT) feat. Genos used both hands cannons for that feat and the blast had an area of destruction which was massively more wide than what Genos did to Deep Sea King.

Deep Sea King is not an exceptional Demon-level monster, Post-G4 Genos who can easily defeat Deep Sea King continues to struggle with higher Demon-level monsters until his Post-Superfight and Post-Elder Centipede upgrades. Deep Sea King, and in turn Tanktop Master, should have their tiers lowered. Post-Superfight Genos' striking strength should be downgraded to match Tanktop Master's as well.

I'm not sure how qualified I am to actually suggest a new placement, but if I had to say, I'd place Deep Sea King closer to the Giant Crow higher in 8-A, when he is dehydrated, and high 8-A or Low 7-C when he is hydrated. Tanktop Master could get a placement somewhere in 7-C.
 
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The entire basis of JDA, scaling to Genos' physicals is because JDA is a physical attack, and if Genos had much lower durability then what his kick was performing, then his legs would've shattered.

Then, why is Deep Sea King High 7-C? The blast which Deep Sea King tanks from BoS Genos is not the same as the blast which produced the High 7-C (113.9 Kilotons of TNT) feat. Genos used both hands cannons for that feat and the blast had an area of destruction which was massively more wide than what Genos did to Deep Sea King.
Deep Sea King is literally able to trade blows with BoS Genos, who survived one of his cannons to the face. So DSK, scales in physicals. Also, the blast you're referring to comes from Arm-Mode Genos, who is superior to normal Genos.

Tanktop Master could get a placement somewhere in 7-C.
What is your proof for this?

I don't get what you're going off of trying to place TTM much lower than Genos. Using the scaling chain is enough to tell us that TTM would've easily destroyed BoS Genos. As just assuming that they don't scale to Low 7-B, it's still: TTM = Post superfight Genos > Post G-4 Genos > Arms Mode Genos > Bos Genos = High 7-C
 
First off, you need feats and statements in order to make Tier placements. You can't just randomly guess and estimate. A calculation is in most cases required or at the very least very much preferred. So, you'll need to refer to specific feats and statements to back up your suggested placements. If there aren't any appropriate calculations, then you can make calculation requests.

Regarding Genos' blasts, it's unlikely that Genos would massively hold back his fire power and one hand cannon should be capable of around half of what he did with both. You also need to take into consideration that area of effect isn't the same as Attack Potency. At the very least this is how it is treated on this wiki and that is generally what is the case in fiction as well. Provided Genos' smaller blasts can harm people or structures which can withstand attacks of similar magnitude to his High 7-C feat or can perform such attacks on a physical level, they scale to some extent even if they aren't as powerful.

Genos got hit by one of his blasts through Carnage Kabuto and it's very unlikely for him to have held back in this instance at all since all of his previous efforts in the fight failed and this was a last-ditch effort which means that his Durability scales. Since Deep Sea King could harm Genos with his physical strikes, he scales as well which affects both his Attack Potency and his Durability. This in turn makes Genos physical strikes scale as well since he can keep up in a physical fight. For more details, you can go to the profiles of Genos and Deep Sea King respectively.
 
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Post-G4 Genos defeated Hydrated Deep Sea King with just one rush of Machinegun Blows and a simple blast of his cannon. Post-Superfight Genos is supposed to be stronger than his previous upgrade and comparable to Tanktop Master in physical strength.
That form is called G4 Genos.
Then, why is Deep Sea King High 7-C? The blast which Deep Sea King tanks from BoS Genos is not the same as the blast which produced the High 7-C (113.9 Kilotons of TNT) feat. Genos used both hands cannons for that feat and the blast had an area of destruction which was massively more wide than what Genos did to Deep Sea King.
There is something called AoE. You do not have to constantly destroy cities in order to be city level.

Since Genos is upgraded and was intending to kill DSK, it is fair to assume he was giving his best. DSK should absolutely scale, because Genos' blast directly countered him, as he needed to stay wet and that attack returned him to his original dry form.

Genos' power does not work like that. Since he works with nuclear energy flowing through his body, it doesn't matter the number of arms he is doing the attack with, because said energy can all go out through a single spot.
 
Garou said Genos' punches were rivaling Tanktop Master, if you think that his punches had the same power behind them that Jet Drive Arrow had, you're making a very large leap with no reason. Like I said, Jet Drive Arrow could scale to Genos' maximum physical capability but the punches are just not that strong and it is as clear as day. Tanktop Master doesn't scale to Jet Drive Arrow.

Area of Effect is not the same as Attack Potency, but the attack should have the same effect if it's the same attack at the same power. It's only logical. If it's less he is using less power.
If Genos only needed one arm to create the High 7-C feat, he would have used only one arm. Genos always only uses one arm if he doesn't need to use two.
All of Genos' most powerful blasts require him to use two hands, not one.

Arms Mode Genos is only superior to BoS Genos when he is actually using Arms Mode. His palm blasts remain the same. Genos only used his palm cannon on Deep Sea King.

Dehydrated Deep Sea King has large building level feats and nothing better. His physicals can scale higher to Genos' durability but again 1 hand =/= 2 hands, what Genos tanked was weaker than the High 7-C feat.
 
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Garou said Genos' punches were rivaling Tanktop Master, if you think that his punches had the same power behind them that Jet Drive Arrow had, you're making a very large leap with no reason. Like I said, Jet Drive Arrow could scale to Genos' maximum physical capability but the punches are just not that strong and it is as clear as day. Tanktop Master doesn't scale to Jet Drive Arrow.

This makes sense.
 
Garou said Genos' punches were rivaling Tanktop Master, if you think that his punches had the same power behind them that Jet Drive Arrow had, you're making a very large leap with no reason. Like I said, Jet Drive Arrow could scale to Genos' maximum physical capability but the punches are just not that strong and it is as clear as day. Tanktop Master doesn't scale to Jet Drive Arrow.

Area of Effect is not the same as Attack Potency, but the attack should have the same effect if it's the same attack at the same power. It's only logical. If it's less he is using less power.
If Genos only needed one arm to create the High 7-C feat, he would have used only one arm. Genos always only uses one arm if he doesn't need to use two.
All of Genos' most powerful blasts require him to use two hands, not one.

Arms Mode Genos is only superior to BoS Genos when he is actually using Arms Mode. His palm blasts remain the same. Genos only used his palm cannon on Deep Sea King.

Dehydrated Deep Sea King has large building level feats and nothing better. His physicals can scale higher to Genos' durability but again 1 hand =/= 2 hands, what Genos tanked was weaker than the High 7-C feat.
I think I understand your point regarding Jet Drive Arrow and the matter of Genos using one or two hands. Your point about area of effect and it being pretty much the same attack is also noted, that being said it's still unlikely that Genos' single hand blasts are drastically weaker as a result of not using both hands. Unless the power output of the individual hands drastically enhances for some reason when used together their individual output should be equal to half of Genos' High 7-C feat when he is going all out or at the very least fighting at a serious capacity. Genos' one hand blasts being High 8-C like the Sea King would suggest them being somehow thousands to ten thousands of times weaker than when he is using both.

That form is called G4 Genos.

There is something called AoE. You do not have to constantly destroy cities in order to be city level.

Since Genos is upgraded and was intending to kill DSK, it is fair to assume he was giving his best. DSK should absolutely scale, because Genos' blast directly countered him, as he needed to stay wet and that attack returned him to his original dry form.

Genos' power does not work like that. Since he works with nuclear energy flowing through his body, it doesn't matter the number of arms he is doing the attack with, because said energy can all go out through a single spot.
Could you link some source or evidence for the nuclear energy flowing through Genos' body? It makes sense to me but I'd like there to be something more concrete to work with than that for the purposes of this thread.
 
it's still unlikely that Genos' single hand blasts are drastically weaker as a result of not using both hands. Unless the power output of the individual hands drastically enhances for some reason when used together their individual output should be equal to half of Genos' High 7-C feat when he is going all out or at the very least fighting at a serious capacity.
I agree with that.
Genos' one hand blasts being High 8-C like the Sea King would suggest them being somehow thousands to ten thousands of times weaker than when he is using both.
Well, I said that Dehydrated Sea King could still scale to Genos' physicals, which would still be 7-C if a one handed blast is half of the High 7-C feat, since that's what Genos tanked. When Sea King tanked it he was in his Hydrated form though, he became Dehydrated because of it but he was still Hydrated when he took the blast, so there'd be no reason for the blast to scale to Dehydrated Sea King anyway right?
 
Well, I said that Dehydrated Sea King could still scale to Genos' physicals, which would still be 7-C if a one handed blast is half of the High 7-C feat, since that's what Genos tanked. When Sea King tanked it he was in his Hydrated form though, he became Dehydrated because of it but he was still Hydrated when he took the blast, so there'd be no reason for the blast to scale to Dehydrated Sea King anyway right?
Wouldn't Deep Sea King scale to Genos' physicals regardless of in which form he took the blast?
 
Wouldn't Deep Sea King scale to Genos' physicals regardless of in which form he took the blast?
Yes, but what I was trying to say is that Hydrated Sea King is stronger than Dehydrated, and obviously because of that Dehydrated Sea King would fare worse if he took the blast than if he were Hydrated.

His Durability probably isn't quite as high as his Striking Strength, considering that he was damaged (minimally) by the 7-C palm blast in Hydrated form, but in Dehydrated form he could damage Genos, who tanked having said blast sent back at him.
 
Wait, hold up, why would DSK be 7-C downscaling from the High 7-C BoS feat? The Genos that fought DSK was a couple upgrades stronger than the Genos that performed the High 7-C feat, so if anything he upscales. And yes, Genos's physicals would scale, at least his durability and his potential max. Genos could replicate the jet drive arrow's energy with his fists with a "jet drive straight" like jet nice guy uses, although I'm sure it would be taxing. The way I see it, Genos is at most Low 7-B physically in his post superfight key, higher with ultra spiral incineration cannon and presumably high 7-C with his regular attacks- downscaling from that.

As of right now, I disagree with DSK not being High 7-C and am not sure about TTM and co downscaling into High 7-C. We didn't see Garou tanking Genos's blasts or deflect anything on the level of jet drive arrow. However... Garou did deflect Metal Bat's attacks, and many would argue that Metal Bat was dragon level at that point. So depending on how you want to interpret that (maybe Garou being High 7-C but going up to low 7-B with attack reflection/deflection), the scaling may or may not change.
 
However... Garou did deflect Metal Bat's attacks, and many would argue that Metal Bat was dragon level at that point. So depending on how you want to interpret that (maybe Garou being High 7-C but going up to low 7-B with attack reflection/deflection), the scaling may or may not change.
I doubt so considering he still struggles demon level characters later on. And stuff like attack reflection doesn't have AP
 
Wait, hold up, why would DSK be 7-C downscaling from the High 7-C BoS feat? The Genos that fought DSK was a couple upgrades stronger than the Genos that performed the High 7-C feat, so if anything he upscales.
I don't think there's any solid proof that Genos' individual palm blasts are any more powerful than BoS when he is in Arms Mode, I briefly touched on this above, but, the showings from the Anti-Saitama Tactical Arms, and from Arms Mode, aren't individual palm blasts, with the exception of what was used on Deep Sea King. What they do is more powerful, but it also requires more blasters in the arms, or for Genos to put his core in his arm and charge up to full power.

Dehydrated Sea King downscales from the High 7-C feat because Genos used both palm blasters to create the High 7-C feat, but Genos' physicals and durability, which Dehydrated Deep Sea King scales to, scale to Genos tanking one of his blasts from one palm blaster repelled back at him. Since it was only one, it should be half as strong, that would drop it down to 7-C.
And yes, Genos's physicals would scale, at least his durability and his potential max. Genos could replicate the jet drive arrow's energy with his fists with a "jet drive straight" like jet nice guy uses, although I'm sure it would be taxing.
I never said he couldn't do a "jet drive straight" or anything like that. The point I made is that the punches Genos was throwing against Garou weren't on the level of a Jet Drive Arrow/Straight, not that they couldn't be if he tried.
The way I see it, Genos is at most Low 7-B physically in his post superfight key, higher with ultra spiral incineration cannon and presumably high 7-C with his regular attacks- downscaling from that.
I agree with this. Why I started this thread is because Tanktop Master currently scales to Genos' maximum physical potential with Jet Drive Arrow, which, he shouldn't. Tanktop Master should scale to High 7-C with Genos' regular strikes.

Hydrated Deep Sea King then should scale far below the two of them because of the Audiobook in which Genos two upgrades prior to the one which scales to Tanktop Master, easily defeats him. I still believe he could be High 7-C when he's Hydrated, but probably around the level of Genos' feat. Tanktop Master and Post-Superfight Genos' normal strikes should likely be towards the higher side of High 7-C.
I doubt so considering he still struggles demon level characters later on.
As for the Garou/Metal Bat thing, I agree with this.
 
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I doubt so considering he still struggles demon level characters later on. And stuff like attack reflection doesn't have AP
You can struggle against people who are equal in AP to you or weaker but are bad matchups and easily beat people with better AP if it's a good matchup. When pumped up, Metal Bat was able to shatter Senior Centipede's carapace (a carapace Murata stated was strong enough to withstand spiral incineration attacks from post superfight Genos) and stop a charging Elder Centipede.

I would argue that both those feats place Metal Bat's AP solidly above Garou's AP. Metal Bat only lost because his brute force actually helped Garou win the fight with his technique and attack reflection. It's one of those rare incidents where you see a demon level character beat a dragon level character because of a good match-up
 
Actually stopping it mid-charge would be AP, since they’d have to counter the force of it moving forward.
 
You can struggle against people who are equal in AP to you or weaker but are bad matchups and easily beat people with better AP if it's a good matchup.
Metal Bat was surely a great matchup for Garou, like you pointed out. Metal Bat's AP is definitely higher than Garou's at that point. He could have been Dragon-level at that point.
If this means anything, ONE said a while back that Metal Bat wasn't lying when he said he could take out a Dragon-level threat.
Garou is still Demon-level though. He admitted that if Metal Bat had successfully hit him even once, it "might've ended ugly". After Metal Bat he struggles against Genos who is still a Demon at the time, and Royal Ripper/Bug God later on.
Royal Ripper you could say was a bad matchup for Garou, but if Bug God were weaker than Garou, Garou would be able to do some damage to him. Bug God is one of the strongest Demons in my opinion, but it remains that Garou is below him and probably a few other Demon-level characters at that time.
As well as Genos being able to push back EC.
Genos is definitely the best example of a Demon-level replicating that Metal Bat feat.
Genos is still solidly Demon-level when he pushes back Elder Centipede. There is no Dragon-level monster he'd definitely be able to defeat on his own at that point.
Puri and Melz works too but I'm not sure that Melz has as much force behind his arms as Elder Centipede charging.
 
That's an LS feat.
In order to completely halt an object's charge, you need to exert an equal or greater amount of energy.
Garou is still Demon-level though. He admitted that if Metal Bat had successfully hit him even once, it "might've ended ugly".
This means little to nothing aside from "that bat hits hard". Garou was consistently pummeling Metal Bat, pelting him with blows that knocked him off his feet and bloodied him up. This beating was so severe that Metal Bat was left with multiple broken bones and heavy blood loss and suffered from a Kaio-ken x3 Goku-esque collapse, forcing him to remain hospitalized for over seventy chapters.
After Metal Bat he struggles against Genos who is still a Demon at the time
He was suffering from a lot. He even suggested that he could take him easy in peak condition.
and Royal Ripper/Bug God later on
Royal Ripper and Bug God are both warriors whom Gyoro Gyoro trusts to push Garou, who she views as a hot ticket item.

Aside from that, Garou was confident he could defeat the two. The only time we see Garou take real damage (although to be fair, most of the fight was off-screen) was when he punched Bug God, who is a stone wall (but even then, he wound up injured in the end), and when Bug God punched him. Heck, when we cut back to the ending, he is practically in the same condition he was prior.
 
This means little to nothing aside from "that bat hits hard".
It implies that had Garou not managed to deflect all of Metal Bat's swings he could have lost, possibly after taking only one hit.
Garou was consistently pummeling Metal Bat, pelting him with blows that knocked him off his feet
A large part of the reason he was able to do so is because Metal Bat's style of fighting plays right into the hands of Garou's martial arts. He's a perfect matchup.
This beating was so severe that Metal Bat was left with multiple broken bones and heavy blood loss and suffered from a Kaio-ken x3 Goku-esque collapse, forcing him to remain hospitalized for over seventy chapters.
Metal Bat was beaten and bloodied before his fight with Garou began. Don't forget that he fought two (probably Tiger-level at best) monsters, two Demon-level monsters, and Elder Centipede before running into Garou.
Nowhere in there does he say it would be easy. Though I don't doubt that he'd have a chance at winning if he were in peak condition. Genos is still firmly Demon-level at that point though.
Royal Ripper and Bug God are both warriors whom Gyoro Gyoro trusts to push Garou, who she views as a hot ticket item.
And they are both Demon-level.
who is a stone wall (but even then, he wound up injured in the end),
I would say most of what damage he did take came when Garou deflected Royal Ripper's strikes into Bug God.
Heck, when we cut back to the ending, he is practically in the same condition he was prior.
Garou was in better condition before the fight started than your "prior" picture, unless you mean prior to him being punched by Bug God.
Anyway, Bug God and Royal Ripper seem no worse for wear at the end of the fight than Garou does. I would go as far as to say they are in better shape.
 
Metal Bat is probably a Glass cannon
That term belies his fighting style, but yes, his AP is above his durability to an extent. Makes sense because he's a weapons user though- if he could hit nearly as hard without the bat he would just be another hand-to-hand brawler.

But let's be clear, he's not like Atomic, he's not going to necessarily be one-shot by someone as strong as his AP
 
Personally, I think we should just not have the JDE on the profile at all. It's based entirely on the size of a particle stream, which is something fiction is super inconsistent with. But there's still tons of problems with this thread.

Firstly, Genos' attack on DSK was a punch through his cheek and then a blast. The blast's heat just dehydrated his body, and certainly didn't "defeat" him. If anything, this is conclusive proof that Genos' punches outright scale to his explosions. Also, we've never seen anything from the suitcase arms that implies they need his core to be stronger or two blasters, he just put all of his power into his core because that was the best thing he could do to stop the meteor. In fact, the Anti-Saitama Tactical Arms actually have extra cannons on them that retract to boost his firepower, proving that a less powerful armset than the suitcase arms can have more firepower with a single arm if needed.

Secondly, Post-G4 Genos is actually capable of murdering Wet DSK with Machine Gun and a blast. Post-Super Fight Genos is way stronger, still putting TTM's physical blows far above Wet DSK. There's no point at all in downgrading anyone from the blasts themselves, but I can agree with not scaling TTM to the Spiral Incineration.

Third, Deep Sea King is very much an exceptional Demon level, hydrated or not. The definition of an S-Class hero is someone who can beat Demon level threats, and DSK wasn't stopped by them. The problem is that Genos isn't weak, in fact he'd already fought and defeated multiple Demon levels around this time, the enemies are just incredibly powerful.

Lastly, I think we should actually downgrade PPP. Even after chosing to go full power with Angel Style, he did f**k all to DSK, who proceeded to combo him into oblivion moments later. No killing intent doesn't mean he was holding back, it just means he wasn't aiming to kill DSK.
 
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Personally, I think we should just not have the JDE on the profile at all. It's based entirely on the size of a particle stream, which is something fiction is super inconsistent with. But there's still tons of problems with this thread.
So... High 7-C dragons?
 
Firstly, Genos' attack on DSK was a punch through his cheek and then a blast. The blast's heat just dehydrated his body, and certainly didn't "defeat" him. If anything, this is conclusive proof that Genos' punches outright scale to his explosions.
I'd always thought that the blast was what blew a hole in his cheek, not the punch. If you want to say that it was Genos' punch, then wouldn't that make his strikes stronger than the blasts, at least from one palm? Because in that case the blast did nothing but dehydrate Deep Sea King and singe his body, very little actual damage, but a punch punctured Sea King's body.
But if Genos' punches are that strong, why did Dehydrated Sea King take less damage from them than Hydrated? He took plenty of strikes from Genos while Dehydrated with rather minimal damage.
Never did I ever say that BoS Genos defeated Deep Sea King.
Also, we've never seen anything from the suitcase arms that implies they need his core to be stronger or two blasters, he just put all of his power into his core because that was the best thing he could do to stop the meteor. In fact, the Anti-Saitama Tactical Arms actually have extra cannons on them that retract to boost his firepower, proving that a less powerful armset than the suitcase arms can have more firepower with a single arm if needed.
If you paid attention to what I was saying, I brought up the meteor/full power core thing because I was mentioning all that the arms had been shown to do. Outside of that and their appearance vs Deep Sea King, Genos doesn't use Arms Mode again.
I also brought up the extra cannons on Anti-Saitama Tactical Arms, I know that Genos can have more firepower in a single arm.
The point I made is that he can't have more firepower in a single palm. There's a reason he has the extra cannons, and like you said, it's to boost his firepower. If he didn't need extra cannons to boost his firepower he could just keep using his palm cannons.
With the exception of the meteor blast Genos always uses two hands to get the most power output from his arms. Even when he wants to use a more powerful blast with Anti-Saitama arms, he uses two hands which both have extra cannons on them.
Secondly, Post-G4 Genos is actually capable of murdering Wet DSK with Machine Gun and a blast. Post-Super Fight Genos is way stronger, still putting TTM's physical blows far above Wet DSK. There's no point at all in downgrading anyone from the blasts themselves, but I can agree with not scaling TTM to the Spiral Incineration.
I brought this up too, and I only ever said to downgrade DSK from the blasts. DSK actually still scales to the blast he took, but he'd be downgraded because that blast should be equal to half of the High 7-C feat BoS Genos has, since it only uses one palm cannon, instead of two.
I said that Post-Superfight Genos and Tanktop Master scale far above Hydrated Sea King, and that they should likely be towards the higher side of High 7-C. (Not accounting for Jet Drive Arrow on Genos' part.)
Hydrated Sea King might still even scale to the full extent of the High 7-C feat, considering how little he was hurt by what he did tank, but my thought was that Dehydrated at least, should drop, because I doubted he'd take that blast as well as when he's hydrated. The issue I mentioned at the top with Genos' punches vs his blasts complicates that, though.
Third, Deep Sea King is very much an exceptional Demon level, hydrated or not. The definition of an S-Class hero is someone who can beat Demon level threats, and DSK wasn't stopped by them. The problem is that Genos isn't weak, in fact he'd already fought and defeated multiple Demon levels around this time, the enemies are just incredibly powerful.
The requirement of an S-Class hero being someone who can defeat Demon-level threats isn't a guarantee that every S-Class can defeat every Demon-level monster.
Post-G4 Genos easily defeats Hydrated Sea King, but still finds himself struggling against other Demon-level threats such as Face Ripper and Awakened Cockroach. He'd be likely to have problems against some others if he had faced off against them as well. Deep Sea King is by no means a weak Demon-level monster, but he is not at the top of the pack either.
Lastly, I think we should actually downgrade PPP. Even after chosing to go full power with Angel Style, he did f**k all to DSK, who proceeded to combo him into oblivion moments later. No killing intent doesn't mean he was holding back, it just means he wasn't aiming to kill DSK.
That makes sense to me. Poor PPP, at least he makes up for it later on.
 
Puri Puri Prisoner was able to restrain Melzalgald, just to note. As well as Genos being able to push back EC.
PPP didn't do that in the manga though, did he? And Genos is barely a demon at that point, he's got some dragon level firepower (ultra spiral incineration cannon)
 
PPP didn't do that in the manga though, did he? And Genos is barely a demon at that point, he's got some dragon level firepower (ultra spiral incineration cannon)
He was able to restrain some if mel's arms. Plus Genos is still a demon by that point, and his USIC is clearly higher than his base AP
 
He was able to restrain some if mel's arms. Plus Genos is still a demon by that point, and his USIC is clearly higher than his base AP
I'm sorry, I was looking through chapters 132-133 because I thought the feat was earlier.

Genos at that point is one of those characters riding the verge of dragon, he's in the same category as Bug God because he has dragon level tools like USIC and a top-level demon physique. It's a bit unfair to just say post-superfight Genos is just a demon
 
Personally, I think we should just not have the JDE on the profile at all. It's based entirely on the size of a particle stream, which is something fiction is super inconsistent with. But there's still tons of problems with this thread.
It's a beam of ignited rocket fuel whose massive size and energy corresponds to the amount of physical force needed to break through EC's tooth- basically a big blast pushing Genos's foot into EC's mouth. The concept is pretty straightforward, it's consistent with other Genos feats and it's not like Murata made the feat by accident. I don't see why not use it, it's no less consistent than Genos's blasts are. If anything it's more consistent with the feats in that particular fight and Genos's best feats overall
 
I'd always thought that the blast was what blew a hole in his cheek, not the punch. If you want to say that it was Genos' punch, then wouldn't that make his strikes stronger than the blasts, at least from one palm? Because in that case the blast did nothing but dehydrate Deep Sea King and singe his body, very little actual damage, but a punch punctured Sea King's body.
You can see that Genos' blast already extended far through his cheek and shattered his teeth.

You said in the OP that he was "defeated" by Genos. Now it seems you agree that the damage was relatively minor.
Never did I ever say that BoS Genos defeated Deep Sea King.
My apologies. I misread one of your statements.
If you paid attention to what I was saying, I brought up the meteor/full power core thing because I was mentioning all that the arms had been shown to do. Outside of that and their appearance vs Deep Sea King, Genos doesn't use Arms Mode again.
My point is that his cannons can have more firepower if needed. So it's entirely likely that a standard palm blast from these upgrades are more powerful than BOS.

As for being able to use more firepower in general, maybe maybe not. That's not really what I meant.
The point I made is that he can't have more firepower in a single palm. There's a reason he has the extra cannons, and like you said, it's to boost his firepower. If he didn't need extra cannons to boost his firepower he could just keep using his palm cannons.
Except to boost his firepower even further than the standard palm cannon blast from his upgrades. But, like I said, that wasn't exactly my point.
I brought this up too, and I only ever said to downgrade DSK from the blasts. DSK actually still scales to the blast he took, but he'd be downgraded because that blast should be equal to half of the High 7-C feat BoS Genos has, since it only uses one palm cannon, instead of two.
I'm just referring to what you said in the OP. I didn't see the other one.
  • "I'm not sure how qualified I am to actually suggest a new placement, but if I had to say, I'd place Deep Sea King closer to the Giant Crow higher in 8-A, when he is dehydrated, and high 8-A or Low 7-C when he is hydrated. Tanktop Master could get a placement somewhere in 7-C."
Plus, the actual meaning of what I was saying is that there's no point in downscaling them from the cannons to begin with.
I said that Post-Superfight Genos and Tanktop Master scale far above Hydrated Sea King, and that they should likely be towards the higher side of High 7-C. (Not accounting for Jet Drive Arrow on Genos' part.)
Sure.
Hydrated Sea King might still even scale to the full extent of the High 7-C feat, considering how little he was hurt by what he did tank, but my thought was that Dehydrated at least, should drop, because I doubted he'd take that blast as well as when he's hydrated. The issue I mentioned at the top with Genos' punches vs his blasts complicates that, though.
You have very little evidence to begin with that Genos' blasts are less powerful than his punches.
The requirement of an S-Class hero being someone who can defeat Demon-level threats isn't a guarantee that every S-Class can defeat every Demon-level monster.
Post-G4 Genos easily defeats Hydrated Sea King, but still finds himself struggling against other Demon-level threats such as Face Ripper and Awakened Cockroach. He'd be likely to have problems against some others if he had faced off against them as well. Deep Sea King is by no means a weak Demon-level monster, but he is not at the top of the pack either.
Firstly, Face Ripper was one-shot by Genos a few moments after, Genos just couldn't get a hit on him. Secondly, those guys are pretty close to Dragon level territory. He's still pretty exceptional, well, well above the likes of mid-tier Paradisers, just not as exceptional as them.

Plus, our point of DSK not being an exceptional Demon level is meaningless to begin with if you don't have a frame of reference.
It's a beam of ignited rocket fuel whose massive size and energy corresponds to the amount of physical force needed to break through EC's tooth- basically a big blast pushing Genos's foot into EC's mouth. The concept is pretty straightforward, it's consistent with other Genos feats and it's not like Murata made the feat by accident. I don't see why not use it, it's no less consistent than Genos's blasts are. If anything it's more consistent with the feats in that particular fight and Genos's best feats overall
I get the logic, I'm saying that deriving his singular best feat from just a stream of particles that's never been consistent in fiction makes no sense than me.

It's semi-consistent with one feat, which is his Spiral Incineration Cannon. Aka, literally all the firepower he has in two arms.

A massive collection of blasts throughout the entire series is not at all comparable.
 
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You can see that Genos' blast already extended far through his cheek and shattered his teeth.
The punch actually knocked out DSK's teeth before Genos blasted, if you check the page right before that one. Which would also be consistent with your thought that the punch is what put the hole in DSK's cheek, and not the blast.
My apologies. I misread one of your statements.
It's no big deal.
My point is that his cannons can have more firepower if needed. So it's entirely likely that a standard palm blast from these upgrades are more powerful than BOS.
You mean, that the palm cannon is stronger on its own, but the extra cannons in the arm are there to add even more power? That I can believe. I'm not convinced that it's like that for certain, but there isn't much in way of evidence to definitively prove either side, honestly. He barely uses Arms Mode, and when he does, he only uses just the single palm cannon for a blast one time, and I doubt that blast yields better results than the BoS feat. That isn't to say that he absolutely COULDN'T, I'm just talking about what has been shown.
I'm just referring to what you said in the OP. I didn't see the other one.
  • "I'm not sure how qualified I am to actually suggest a new placement, but if I had to say, I'd place Deep Sea King closer to the Giant Crow higher in 8-A, when he is dehydrated, and high 8-A or Low 7-C when he is hydrated. Tanktop Master could get a placement somewhere in 7-C."
When I wrote that bit on placements in the first post I was still adjusting to/learning the way things work on this site. Still am. I didn't totally understand how large the difference in tiers was.
What I think currently is that DSK should be 7-C when he is dehydrated, and probably still High 7-C when he is hydrated, Tanktop Master should be higher in High 7-C than Hydrated Sea King but not quite Low 7-B, and Post-Superfight Genos' striking strength (Not counting Jet Drive Arrow, just his typical punches/kicks) should be at the same level as Tanktop Master's, but Genos can still break into Low 7-B with how he already does if you guys conclude that Jet Drive Arrow is ok to keep using.
You have very little evidence to begin with that Genos' blasts are less powerful than his punches.
I never tried to prove that, I thought the opposite until now, you're the one who just got me thinking this.
People at the top of this thread told me that BoS Genos' durability scales to the blast which he had sent back at him by Carnage Kabuto. Genos tanked that blast and was fine, so his durability scales. Dehydrated DSK could harm Genos with his strikes, so he scales as well. Genos' strikes scale too since he could harm DSK in return with them.
The thing is, that I believe the blast Genos tanked is equal to half of what it would have been with two hands, since he only used one. That would put BoS Genos' Durability and Striking Strength, and Dehydrated DSK, at 7-C, not High 7-C, because the High 7-C feat needed both palm cannons.
However, like I said, the point you brought up, that Genos punched DSK before blasting him, and potentially did even more damage than his blast, complicates that.
Just gonna copy & paste what I said before:
I'd always thought that the blast was what blew a hole in his cheek, not the punch. If you want to say that it was Genos' punch, then wouldn't that make his strikes stronger than the blasts, at least from one palm? Because in that case the blast did nothing but dehydrate Deep Sea King and singe his body, very little actual damage, but a punch punctured Sea King's body.
But if Genos' punches are that strong, why did Dehydrated Sea King take less damage from them than Hydrated? He took plenty of strikes from Genos while Dehydrated with rather minimal damage.
Firstly, Face Ripper was one-shot by Genos a few moments after, Genos just couldn't get a hit on him. Secondly, those guys are pretty close to Dragon level territory. He's still pretty exceptional, well, well above the likes of mid-tier Paradisers, just not as exceptional as them.

Plus, our point of DSK not being an exceptional Demon level is meaningless to begin with if you don't have a frame of reference.
Face Ripper initially blocked/tanked a palm blast from Post-G4 Genos with no issue, Genos considered him to be remarkably fast, he could cut through Genos' arms, and he managed to block one of Genos' punches, too. In order to defeat him, Genos blasted into his mouth, destroying him from the inside, which, is probably less durable than the outside, right?
Face Ripper being close to Dragon is debatable, Awakened Cockroach, maybe, but Face Ripper? I don't know about that. Either way, they both are still Demon-level and far greater than Deep Sea King.
My reasoning for DSK not being exceptional is Post-G4 Genos, who is far stronger than the Genos DSK beat, destroying Deep Sea King with ease, and then struggling more against other Demons, as well as there being stronger Demons than those Demons he struggles against. Like I said, DSK isn't a weak Demon-level, being able to defeat S-class heroes is still impressive, but he's just not at that top level of Demon.
If you want a frame of reference for an exceptional Demon, then I would name ones approaching Dragon-level, Demons who Post-G4 Genos would still struggle against, which DSK definitely is not. Think Awakened Cockroach, Bug God, G5, Royal Ripper (Though Genos vs Royal Ripper would probably go just like Face Ripper)
Close to Dragon is still Demon, and much more exceptional than one who is firmly Demon.
 
I never tried to prove that, I thought the opposite until now, you're the one who just got me thinking this.
People in this thread really made it seem like you were.
I'd always thought that the blast was what blew a hole in his cheek, not the punch. If you want to say that it was Genos' punch, then wouldn't that make his strikes stronger than the blasts, at least from one palm? Because in that case the blast did nothing but dehydrate Deep Sea King and singe his body, very little actual damage, but a punch punctured Sea King's body.
But if Genos' punches are that strong, why did Dehydrated Sea King take less damage from them than Hydrated? He took plenty of strikes from Genos while Dehydrated with rather minimal damage.
Maybe because the punch was jet boosted. Although even dehydrated DSK could withstand one jet boosted kick that clearly had more impact than his punches. It could show that the difference between normal and hydrated DSK, while noticeable, isn't super significant.
Face Ripper initially blocked/tanked a palm blast from Post-G4 Genos with no issue, Genos considered him to be remarkably fast, he could cut through Genos' arms, and he managed to block one of Genos' punches, too. In order to defeat him, Genos blasted into his mouth, destroying him from the inside, which, is probably less durable than the outside, right?
Face Ripper withstood it with his blades. But you're right, Genos does fire into his mouth.
Face Ripper being close to Dragon is debatable, Awakened Cockroach, maybe, but Face Ripper? I don't know about that. Either way, they both are still Demon-level and far greater than Deep Sea King.
I'm not saying he's close to Dragon, I'm saying Royal Ripper and Bug God are.
If you want a frame of reference for an exceptional Demon, then I would name ones approaching Dragon-level, Demons who Post-G4 Genos would still struggle against, which DSK definitely is not. Think Awakened Cockroach, Bug God, G5, Royal Ripper (Though Genos vs Royal Ripper would probably go just like Face Ripper)
Close to Dragon is still Demon, and much more exceptional than one who is firmly Demon.
By frame of reference, I meant that being weak shouldn't entitle certain characters to downgrades.
 
Maybe because the punch was jet boosted. Although even dehydrated DSK could withstand one jet boosted kick that clearly had more impact than his punches. It could show that the difference between normal and hydrated DSK, while noticeable, isn't super significant.
Yeah, I guess the jet boost would have to be responsible for that.
So it all depends on the palm cannon debate and whether those two fully scale to the High 7-C feat or not.
I believe these are all the most plausible solutions:

If you believe that what BoS Genos tanked, getting his blast blown back at him by Carnage Kabuto, was equal to the full extent of the High 7-C feat, then they would both still be High 7-C, but I don't agree with that.

If you agree that what Genos tanked is equal to half of the High 7-C feat due to it using one palm cannon instead of two, then BoS Genos' Durability and Dehydrated Sea King's Striking Strength would be 7-C. Since Genos' Striking Strength can scale to Dehydrated Sea King too, Genos' Striking Strength would be 7-C.
If there isn't a significant difference in power with hydration, Hydrated Sea King would be 7-C too in that scenario, which would be supported by the blast he tanks assumingly being similar to what Genos tanked for the 7-C value, and not higher, and Genos' strike being 7-C.

If there is a significant difference in power with hydration, and Hydrated Sea King is High 7-C, you could say that if Genos' punch is what put the hole in Hydrated Sea King's cheek, Genos' Striking Strength might still be High 7-C, and Dehydrated Sea King's Durability could scale to that. His dehydrated Striking Strength and Genos' Durability would remain 7-C though. If you said the blast did the damage instead, that would just keep everything that isn't the blast or Hydrated Sea King, at 7-C.

If you are set in stone on saying that Genos' Arms Mode palm cannons are superior to BoS palm cannons, then I would say that the absolute best power output you could get from one palm alone, based off of what was shown, probably isn't much better than the High 7-C feat of BoS Genos with two. That would put Hydrated Sea King at a definite High 7-C, and if you say there isn't a significant difference in power with hydration, then Dehydrated and therefore BoS Genos could remain where they are at High 7-C all around as well thanks to that.
I'm not saying he's close to Dragon, I'm saying Royal Ripper and Bug God are.
My mistake.
By frame of reference, I meant that being weak shouldn't entitle certain characters to downgrades.
I agree with that, and my main reason for the DSK downgrade is the Genos stuff. I mentioned the part about him not being exceptional not as a way to outright say that he is weak, but because I saw it said on Puri Puri Prisoner's profile that Puri can handle "lower-end Demon-level threats" and that DSK is "Stronger than average Demons", which to me at least, would imply that he is an exceptionally powerful Demon-level. And I tried to make it clear that he is not, so that he wouldn't be compared to those Demon-levels who actually are, like those who we talked about.

My bringing Deep Sea King into the thread at all was unnecessary, in hindsight. I mentioned him and where he scaled because of my point at the start of the thread, that while Tanktop Master shouldn't scale to Jet Drive Arrow, he shouldn't scale to Spiral Incineration Cannon either, and, not quite understanding how things would work at the time, I assumed that if he wasn't scaled to that, he'd be scaled to the next lowest value on the One Punch Man Verse page, that being BoS Genos' High 7-C blast which Deep Sea King also scales to. Obviously Tanktop Master is far stronger than DSK, so I thought that DSK and as a byproduct, BoS Genos, would have to be lower, aside from what I believe anyway about BoS Genos' feat and Arms Mode and all that. I didn't fully comprehend how large the gap between High 7-C and Low 7-B is, and where DSK was in that gap, at the time that I thought it necessary to bring up.

I stand by the points I have made thus far about Genos and Deep Sea King, but I worry that the conversation is straying too far from my original goal of scaling Tanktop Master lower. And that's on me, due to my lack of understanding of the system overall and of how this change I'm advocating for would actually pan out, I made this thread very convoluted, and for that I apologize.
 
You might have to take a rain check on 7-C because I'm planning a little revision on the Genos feat.
 
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