(Dead or Alive & Ninja Gaiden) Ninjas' tiering

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The rules do say the feats need to be placed in a VSBW blog and have a calc group member analyze it before accepting. And not talking about Vigoor's other feats, I mean a collection of feats performed by other characters and/or Dead or Alive characters. Though I do hear Tier 6 is consistent.

I just mean in general, if attempting to scale what's nearly half the verse to what's easily the highest feat in the verse by far, it becomes prone to outliers. But keeping the best feats god tier exclusive is what makes them less outlierish.

 

[Random-Helper323]

There's one concern I have. I seem to recall something about there being some other reason why the 12 dragons couldn't beat the Dark Dragon, who was stated to have been the weakest Dragon originally. I think I read somewhere that the dragons couldn't beat it due to some restriction on fighting each other or something. I'll look into it.

Also, does Vigoor really scale to Gurdu when he only destroyed Gurdu's creation over time? I opened the linked evidence and I'll watch the video in a couple of hours unless something happens before then, so if that covers that issue I'll edit and say so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Low 2-C feats can't really be divided unlike 3-A feats, and Vigoor is clearly stated to be Gurdu's equal yeah.

But anyway, while I do not know DoA fights scenes thoroughly, I did replay Ninja Gaiden Sigma not too long ago, and the cutscenes do consistently portray as being much stronger than Rachel; Rachel gets overwhelmed and even kidnapped by various antagonists to the point where Ryu needs to rescue them. And Ayane basically has the same type of struggles in Sigma 2 and Razor's Edge though I'm in the middle of replaying the former and haven't touched the latter in ages.

But yeah, the first step is if was can't reliable call Ryu Low 2-C without the True Dragon Sword, which is something I'm personally skeptical given it's consistent he absolutely needs the True Dragon Sword to best various end game bosses, Ryu himself clearly fears wielding it which hints it's canon for his True Dragon sword to be a lot stronger than himself. Also the unity between Dragon Sword and Eye of the Dragon is what ultimately makes it yield such power.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know I sound like I'm relaying on "Appeal to Tradition" so don't take these words as fully comparable to TDS's case, but TDS in my eyes is basically Ninja Gaiden's version of what True Master Sword/Golden Sword is to Legend of Zelda series or what Exalted Falchion is to the Fire Emblem franchise. There is a vague statement but still legitimately reasonable. When receiving the Tempered Sword, there is a statement about "It's power flows through your body. And In Fire Emblem Echoes, there is a statement that holding the Falchion in your hand grants you protection from Mila and same is said for other Holy Blood weapons. Heroes' Relics in Three Houses and other S rank weapons don't quite have the same statements, but it's just consistent that the users trade blows with other god tiers with them while effortlessly curb-stomping regulars despite trading blows with regulars without said S rank weapons.

Ryu also typically stomps non end game bosses when using True Dragon Sword but struggles to an extent when not using them. That, and many others such as Murai are basically invulnerable to anything anyone can throw at them aside form True Dragon Sword. Also keep in mind that Ryu being able to harm certain final bosses with other weapons could be a result of game mechanics. Also, Ryu does stand up to Murai's Dark Dragon Blade when wielding True Dragon Sword when implied no one could survive it otherwise.

I have work, so may talk later.

Edit, also, isn't Yaiba non-canon?

 

[Random-Helper323]

I have some concerns still though. The very video sent to prove the Dark Dragon was stronger than the others says something about its "evil" draining their power. Given that it was one of them, it is possible it betraying them weakened them significantly while it was amped by Vigoor.

I also have to question whether reaching the level of a deity automatically means Vigoor is equal to the existing deity. I don't have a big issue here, just a couple of small concerns.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Anyways @DarkDragonMedeus we can continue this more or simply just slap a "possiblity uni" key for base Hayabusa and whoever all scale once we figure that out.

More input from others would also be appreciated for more thoughts

Pings only work for staff, presumably to prevent members sending each other hundreds of prank notifications.

I'm not against universal Ryu Hayabusa per se. I just have some small concerns. Like reaching the level of a deity might not necessarily mean Gurdu, not when it's written from the perspective of fiends and humans. Mythological beings have been seen as gods historically for far lesser feats than the endless solar and lunar eclipses alone.

Wasn't it said above that Vigoor was destroying an infinite universe? I can't read the whole thread again right now, I'm busy. Sorry about that.

 

[Random-Helper323]

My concern isn't the events being non-canon, it's the specific use of the statement that Vigoor reached the level of a deity. If the statement specifically clarified that he was comparable to Gurdu that would be different, but I'm concerned that it says "a deity", not Gurdu. It could refer to an ability to access or harm Gurdu's creation rather than any equal power.

It's hard to be sure if Gurdu fought back, since no statement is made about them fighting or clashing. Still, the above posts said something about Vigoor destroying an infinite universe and the space-time continuum. Is that true? I'll read the rest of the thread later, but not able to at the moment.

 

[Mariogoods]

Could someone tell me the reason why Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden are the same continuities? I only know the three FC video games of Ninja Gaiden regarding Ninja Gaiden series.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Going to revise it soo

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And I already said this, but I'll concede on this if anyone can post something explicitly implying Ryu gets amped from wielding the True Dragon Sword. As of now, that still hasn't happened, and I've actually provided evidence suggesting otherwise

He is infused with the power of the dragons when he uses the True Dragon Sword

 

[XXKINGXX69]

38 seconds in: Ishtaros: your "sword" no longer boasts divine protection of the dragons.

Also rechecking the vid, the "infuse" part is implying moreso Ryu wielding the power of the Dragons in the TDS (which yeah, it does make the sword stronger, as we all know), not "being empowered by the Dragons"

I will say, this is however an actual good example of him not being able to hurt someone without TDS unlike all other bosses that you can still beat without using it (IE, Vazdah, Vigoor Emperor, and Murai).

Ryu after getting this power can use his Ninpo on Ishtaros when he previously couldn't, so its likely that Ryu himself also gets stronger

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Waits for counter to being able to defeat Murai without using TDS, Vigoor, and Vazdah

Also, unlike all these examples I brought up, Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword is the only one here where only the Dragon Sword is the only weapon you can use. Its incredibly easy to argue gameplay mechanic for that example when it's topped by 3 others, but I digress
I really don't get the issue here. If anyone has qualms still, then why would a "possibly scaling to uni" rating not suffice

Waits for counter to being able to defeat Murai without using TDS, Vigoor, and Vazdah

So?

Also, unlike all these examples I brought up, Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword is the only one here where only the Dragon Sword is the only weapon you can use. Its incredibly easy to argue gameplay mechanic for that example when it's topped by 3 others, but I digress

Why is it a game mechanic? And yeah the dark dragon scaling is fine, though the cosmology is higher than that, random kids are aware of other universes so I'll make a future CRT for 2-C ninja gaiden

 

[Z's_Universe]

Anyways, I again ask what everyone here who even cares about this verse anymore think of a "possibly" rating for other characters should uni go through. The evidence is legit there.

Seems fine to me

 

[XXKINGXX69]

For now, sure but I am working on a full rework

 

[Z's_Universe]

Alright. I genuinely want more thoughts from others still following this thread btw. Any issues, scaling, anything cited, etc, so we can discuss it. This franchise is in major need of an update on this site. Obviously not many care about it anymore, so I'm really hoping we can reach some kinda conclusion here without the thread dying

I'm in class atm. I'll look through everything when I'm done.

 

[Z's_Universe]

Oops, I've been incredibly busy the past few days and haven't had time to look through the thread.

Going through it now, I think Low 2-C with TDS is gonna go through without issue. TDS beat Dark Dragon, who fought Vigoor, who destroyed existence including time

The main issue is Base Ryu and the subsequent scaling chain.

If the Yaiba scaling is legit then I don't see any issue with it. However It should still be noted that the TDS should be above Base Ryu regardless (so it would be Low 2-C, Higher with TDS).

With that being said, bare minimum there's been a lot of feats supporting anything from 7-A to 6-B. So we could potentially scale other cast members to those feats. In Nyotengus feat it's actually implied she kept the storm going, just weakened. So the feat should still be valid.

As mentioned in that blog, Brad Wong and Leifang both canonically fought Nyo, meaning they should both scale.

Daidara creating Mountains and possibly Japan would also be in that range. Meaning if we decide Ryu doesn't scale to the TDS, then we still have relatively consistent Tier 7 and 6 feats.

One thing however, when looking through all the videos, I noticed something in the Vigoor Mythology.

"That is why their descendants, we fiends, have taken over control of these lands. With this land as a barrier, the power of Vigoor is, for now, limited to this earth."

I don't know much about Ninja Gaiden (I'm only on this thread cause of DoA). But it sounds like Vigoor is limited to planetary during the events of the game?

 

[Z's_Universe]

Ik which you're talking about. I assumed that was referring to just sealing Vigoor to the confounds of Earth and preventing him from going to other planets, like he did when he was "destroying Gurdu's territory." The fight against the 13 Dragons implies this, too. They banished him away after a long fight.

That said, even if you have issues with that, Ryu does beat the Dark Dragon himself, who'd be roughly around Vigoor's level. Dark Dragon was the weakest of the dragons but was still there during the fight, which was apparently long. And this before getting whatever amp it got from Vigoor after.

There's also Vazdah though if you have issues with Vigoor, it'd apply to Vazdah as well seeing as Vazdah was "made from the mind and body" of Vigoor.

Honestly if Vazdah is made from his mind and body than I really don't see an issue with scaling. Since body would logically include the capabilities of said body

 

[Z's_Universe]

Like I said though, if anyone has issues with scaling base Ryu and other characters to uni, I really don't see why the heavy opposition to a "possibly" rating

I would honestly say a likely rating considering there's a lot more evidence for it then there is opposing it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah this verse doesn't have any hope of a revival on this site lol

Yes it does, I'm working on it rn

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I never said it isn't going to be accepted, but we're going to need more staff input and/or people familiar with the verse gather some larger lists of notable feats.

Though, it is true that nobody either knows anything about NG/DoA or care however.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I never said it isn't going to be accepted, but we're going to need more staff input and/or people familiar with the verse gather some larger lists of notable feats.

Though, it is true that nobody either knows anything about NG/DoA or care however.

I just said I am working on it..... I can finish the sandbox for the original trilogy Ryu profile by today or tomorrow, then Sigma games and more can come after

 

[TurtleGod55]

How's the Update so Far?