DC Comics AP revision (Why certain feats literally can't ever be used, honestly probably closer to a rant)

[The_Smashor]

Honestly this is one third serious, one third shitposting, and one third unyielding rage. But the third that's serious wanted to make this.


Basically, Hal defeated Ion, a being made of all the universe's willpower, with just his own willpower. Wally West also outran the Speed Force, all the multiverse's speed, with his own speed. Logically, this is impossible, as Ion would be Hal's Willpower + Everyone else's willpower, and the Speed Force would be Wally's Speed + Everyone else's speed. Let's do a quick math equation.

Hal = H, Wally = W, Ion = I and The Speed Force = S. X is any number greater than zero, in this case the willpower/speed of everyone else in DC.

I = H + X

S = W + X

H > I

W > S

H > H + X

W > W + X

While some other logically unlikely situations have happened in DC, such as Batman damaging The Spectere with a kick, if you consider Batman and The Spectere's values to be variable, it's technically possible. However, something objectively impossible has happened in this case. H is greater than a number that can only ever be greater than it, as is W. As a complete logical impossibility has happened, the Paradox of entailment kicks in. Let's add two other variables. G = The Writer, and M = an average man.

Theoretically, M can be greater than G, though at the same time G is greater than M. M is both greater and less than itself. It's raining and it isn't, so George Washington is made out of rakes.

These feats Hal and Wally have accomplished can never be counted as anything other than Plot-Induced Stupidity. Neither feat can be used to support anything. Defeating Ion can never be used as evidence for Hal being tier 2, and Wally outrunning the speed force can't be used as evidence for anything. Because if they are, then logic itself ceases to exist in DC, and a small child could beat The Spectere to death with a rotten Banana Peel. Literally everyone is

And no, it's not reality warping or fate manipulation or mathematics manipulation or whatever, it's just terrible writing; espesially without direct statements of such.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i don't know jack shit about dc comics, but the spectre let bruce kick him in order to ease his nerves and diffuse the conflict.

 

[Firestorm808]

What comics issues are you referencing?

 

[The_Smashor]

I don't remember the exact issue of Hal fighting Ion, but it was when he was fighting Krona. I don't remember the exact issue where it happened, but from a little bit of research I think it's Green Lantern Vol 4 #67. From what I can tell Wally outran the Speed Force in Flash Forward #5.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

What comics issues are you referencing?

Nah he’s just mad that DC characters keeping winning on Death Battle, and after zephyro told the OP that he was wrong he made this.

This should be closed due to the Intent of the OP and his hatred of DC herald tiers

 

[The_Smashor]

Honestly this is one third serious, one third shitposting, and one third unyielding rage. But the third that's serious wanted to make this.

I am openly admitting that this is partly spite. Not to mention this isn't even supposed to do anything it's just to make sure certain feats aren't counted in the future. This CRT will only be important if our rules loosen up and DC heralds can be above 4-B.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

K

This should still be closed

 

[The_Smashor]

This also gives us extreme examples of Plot-Induced Stupidity to add to that page. Also Outliers. Maybe examples as to why DC's only 4-B due to how absolutely absurd these writers are even when it's just one writer.

People actually take these two feats seriously in versus debates, even big names like Death Battle, and I intend on taking measures to prevent that in any way possible. If I can raise awareness of this through our website, I will.

 

[DMUA]

I am openly admitting that this is partly spite.

this isn't even a bruh moment anymore what is wrong with you

 

[Tipper17]

You really made a thread about this?
Like bruh

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I don't see why DC gets the shaft for absurd shit when other verses do the same thing. Of course I'm not saying that the concerns for consistency aren't valid, but in a website with characters like Anos or Yogiri being a thing comics aren't exactly kings of absurdity

 

[The_Smashor]

this isn't even a bruh moment anymore what is wrong with you

What's wrong with me is I'm extremely angry that feats that are logically impossible are being considered valid, even as outliers. If either feat is even acknowledged, then logic, the most fundamental part of debate, no longer exists in the context of the DC universe. A normal human being could defeat Dr. Manhattan by beating him to death with a rotten banana peel, Batman could defeat The Writer by whistling Yankie Doodle Dandy and a bloodlusted Darksied can be arrested by 0-dimentional police officers using a solar eclipse as handcuffs.

 

[Arcker123]

This is just one argument from incredulity, things being absurd is not reason to downgrade them, this is fiction for Christ sake.

 

[The_Smashor]

I don't see why DC gets the shaft for absurd shit when other verses do the same thing. Of course I'm not saying that the concerns for consistency aren't valid, but in a website with characters like Anos or Yogiri being a thing comics aren't exactly kings of absurdity

Because people pretend it dosn't and people think Wally West outrunning the Speed Force is a valid feat.

 

[The_Smashor]

This is just one argument from incredulity, things being absurd is not reason to downgrade them, this is fiction for Christ sake.

I'm literally not arguing to downgrade them they're 4-B on this website and these are tier 2 feats I'm saying can't be counted.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

actual sophistry and anyone supporting this is dishonest

 

[DMUA]

That's a personal problem and I would recommend you not make CRTs about something this ridiculous.

"Outliers" when I'm pretty sure you could dig up like, 30 Tier 2 feats

Dunno if all the contexts are fine but, still, you're asserting a lack of logic onto something that simply doesn't fit with your current understanding and turning this into a massive scene. Calm the hell down.

In fact, is Ion even everything's willpower in the same sense? Or is there further context to explain this?

Like, how, for example, Wally outrunning the speedforce was when he was being amped to 1-A.

Or maybe you're hyperfocusing on exactly one thing as opposed to the general idea that Hal is more powerful than he's given credit for?

 

[The_Smashor]

actual sophistry and anyone supporting this is dishonest

Please elaborate.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I am openly admitting that this is partly spite.

Great.

Dude, if you want to rant about inconsistencies and shitty writing and stuff, just go to r/CharacterRant or smth. This ain't the place for it.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Wally West also once outran the concept of death to the end of time where said event caused the Black Racer to be erased on a conceptual level yet Wally was fine.
That's just fiction man, some verses are more grounded in reality while in others they're more fanatical

 

[Tipper17]

I don't see why DC gets the shaft for absurd shit when other verses do the same thing. Of course I'm not saying that the concerns for consistency aren't valid, but in a website with characters like Anos or Yogiri being a thing comics aren't exactly kings of absurdity

Exactly like why one verse get this shit while others get a pass?
Plus it doesn't change anything on this site

 

[Rikimarox2]

And we have characters soulhaxing soulless people. Mindhaxing mindless people and objects. Death haxing people who lack the concept of death.

Shit's normal. It's fiction.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@DMUA Ion is typically considered the conceptual embodiment of willpower across the universe itself, but I don't think (at least from what I know) it's been established to be will across the mutlvierse

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Here you go Smasher your Clown Degree

 

[Tipper17]

Really this thread should be closed anyway

 

[DMUA]

So you can explain it by saying Ion is from another universe and thus doesn't draw from Hal's capabilities?

There. Wasn't that easier?

Also, to everyone meming and mocking Smashor: I would like to extend that you also need to calm the hell down, because I don't want this situation to escalate on my watch.

 

[The_Smashor]

That's a personal problem and I would recommend you not make CRTs about something this ridiculous.

"Outliers" when I'm pretty sure you could dig up like, 30 Tier 2 feats

Dunno if all the contexts are fine but, still, you're asserting a lack of logic onto something that simply doesn't fit with your current understanding and turning this into a massive scene. Calm the hell down.

In fact, is Ion even everything's willpower in the same sense? Or is there further context to explain this?

Or maybe you're hyperfocusing on exactly one thing as opposed to the general idea that Hal is more powerful than he's given credit for?

This isn't about it being an outlier. If these were outliers they'd still be an issue. They need to be dismissed entirely in any context.

Exactly like why one verse get this shit while others get a pass?
Plus it doesn't change anything on this site

That is neither here nor there. This site is basically a hub for versus debating, so if we can have the feats in question being something even less than an outlier, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

Here you go Smasher your Clown Degree

Very mature. At least spell my name right if you're going to insult me. Also, that's actually a Clock degree.

So you can explain it by saying Ion is from another universe and thus doesn't draw from Hal's capabilities?

There. Wasn't that easier?

That dosn't explain Wally outrunning the Speed Force, which is a feat people still count. Also, Hal's feat was in fact with his universe's Ion unless the DC wiki is incorrect.

 

[DMUA]

Like, how, for example, Wally outrunning the speedforce was when he was being amped to 1-A.

maybe you missed this edit but it is in fact something that happened that directly explains that.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@DMUA it's more like Hal having so much willpower that it overpowers Ion, which some might say is ridculous but @Rikimarox2 gave some examples of soulless being being soulhaxed and vice versa to point how it isn't THAT ridculous

 

[The_Smashor]

maybe you missed this edit but it is in fact something that happened that directly explains that.

What tier is the Speed Force? And that still dosn't explain Hal's feat since your explanation there was false.

 

[Tipper17]

So you can explain it by saying Ion is from another universe and thus doesn't draw from Hal's capabilities?

There. Wasn't that easier?

Also, to everyone meming and mocking Smashor: I would like to extend that you also need to calm the hell down, because I don't want this situation to escalate on my watch.

It just some outlier feat for Post Crisis Hal on this site
That's it

That is neither here nor there. This site is basically a hub for versus debating, so if we can have the feats in question being something even less than an outlier, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

It doesn't change shit
You and I know damn well this feat means nothing considering Post Crisis Hal is rated 4-B here
Especially where any talks of arguing for universal DC/Marvel Heralds here ends with the same old dance and song

 

[The_Smashor]

It just some outlier feat for Post Crisis Hal on this site
That's it

It can't even be an outlier. It can be, at most, Plot-Induced Stupidity.

 

[Tipper17]

It can't even be an outlier. It can be, at most, Plot-Induced Stupidity.

It just an outlier like why does it matter?
It changes nothing

 

[DMUA]

What tier is the Speed Force? And that still dosn't explain Hal's feat since your explanation there was false.

If you don't know, don't assert onto everyone that the feat is illogical and insult a major fanbase. But, I think, under your premise, we can reasonably assume it's not 1-A, yes?

Have you looked at the scans to confirm that Hal was included in Ion's willpower?

 

[The_Smashor]

If you don't know, don't assert onto everyone that the feat is illogical and insult a major fanbase. But, I think, under your premise, we can reasonably assume it's not 1-A, yes?

Have you looked at the scans to confirm that Hal was included in Ion's willpower?

Ion is literally the embodiment of everyone's willpower, it's simple logic. Do you have scans to confirm it isn't?

 

[DMUA]

I can't prove a negative bro.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I wonder what happened that caused this thread to be made? Why now? Did something happen?

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

I legit thought this type of thread only happens on fandom.

 

[The_Smashor]

I can't prove a negative bro.

Ion is the embodiment of everyone in the universe's willpower. Hal is in that universe. As such, Ion has Hal's willpower.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I wonder what happened that caused this thread to be made? Why now? Did something happen?

Hal Jordan vs Ben 10