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CRT for the first serie of Baki

CuddleFox

CuddleFox

337
121
Hi, small thread to make some light modifications to some characters of Baki.
I'll expand this topic with modifications for the following series when I've read them. Here we go.

Baki himself
He's currently At least 9-A, far higher with Demon Back in the "Maximum tournament to New Grappler Baki" key.
What I propose would be At least 9-A, likely higher post Retsu, far higher with Demon Back

-He didn't overpower Jack (At least 9-A, likely higher) only with the Demon Back as stated on his current page, he was on equal level with him the whole time they fought.
-He was able to defeat Sikorsky in a few moves each time they met, and Sikorsky basically one-shoted Igari (At least 9-A), who had been a problem for Baki before his fight with Retsu.

Gaia during the Childhood saga
He's currently Unknown, likely 10-B in the "As Nomura" key.
What I propose would be Unknown, likely 9-B
For the simple reason that he took several attacks from Baki (9-B) before fainting.

Baki, at the very beginning was already able to one-shot simple humans, as seen during his confrontation with 100 delinquents and at the time he confronts Gaia, he is supposed to be much more powerful than that. So I prefer to put Gaia As nomura on the same level as the other military people Baki faces (9-B). Even if he is only a medic. After all, those military too lost to Baki after only a few hits.

What do you guys think? ^^
 
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Ok, I just finished the Death Row Convicts arc, I have a lot more changes to suggest for this one. Since their current tiering seems to assume that they are all more or less equivalent in power, which I don't think is true.

Speck : 9-A -> At least 9-A
-Fought on pretty equal term with Hanayama (At least 9-A), although the latter overpowered him in the end, but Hanayama clearly wasn't that much above him to show a difference in the tier IMO.

Sikorsky : 9-A -> At least 9-A, likely higher
-One-shoted Alexander Gallen. (At least 9-A)
-One-shoted Kanji Igari, who was a threat for Maximum tournament Baki (Which means he is At least 9-A, as was Baki when he fought with him)
-Bloodied Baki's face, stood his ground against Jack for a moment even if the latter had the advantage. (Which is also an argument I'd use to say that Baki post retsu deserve At least 9-A, likely higher.)

Dorian Kaioh : At least 9-A -> At least 9-A, likely higher, higher with equipment or possibly far higher with equipment depending of what you prefer.
-Without equipment : Easily overpowered Katsumi (At least 9-A) and could withstand many of Doppo's attacks (At least 9-A, likely higher). Easily withstood Kato's attacks.
-With equipment : Could cut Doppo's hand in one move with his wire, could instant ko Doppo with his wrist explosive.
I also disagree with the fact that he is considered an equal to Retsu (At least 9-A). They just share the same title and the one time they faced each other, Dorian was injured from another battle. This is visible by the fact that Retsu was shown slightly stronger than Katsumi at the beginning of the arc, while Dorian surpassed him without difficulty.

Ryuko Yanagi : Likely 9-A -> At least 9-A
-Was able to harm Shibukawa (9-A), but not Baki.
-Has perhaps a durability superior than his attack, he was able to take several attacks from Baki and an accidental attack from Sikorsky intended for the latter. And when Doyle punched him in the face, it had almost no effect.

Hector Doyle : 9-A, higher with equipment -> At least 9-A or 9-A, possibly far higher with equipment
-Without equipment : Could easily ko Rob Robinson who was able to harm Kanji Igari who could, himself, harm Maximum Tournament Baki. (At least 9-A)
-Generally speaking, was much less of a threat to Doppo than Dorian, could have been at the very most a match for Katsumi and I'm not even sure, that's why I'm hesitating between 9-A and At least 9-A. Although I would choose At least 9-A because when Katsumi ko'd him multiple times, he was already severely injured, and katsumi's burns didn't seem to impact his strength.
-The only punch he did to Yanagi didn't have much effect despite the latter taking it full force. And he was able to counter immediatly. But since Doyle was getting strangled at the time, I don't know if that really counts.
-With equipment : Managed to cut oliva (7-C) multiple times (even if he was under the effect of a relaxant and it didn't really hurted him in the end), one shoted Kosho with his bomb (At least 9-A).
Also does his spring punch count in his equipment? I acted as if it was.

What else would change after these modifications?

-Kosho would get a new key for New Grappler Baki which would put him at At least 9-A and Supersonic speed, as he was able to injure Doyle, didn't know which of the two was faster, and it was mentioned that he had become even stronger since the tournament, and compared himself to Retsu.

-Motobe would go from 9-A to 9-A physically, At least 9-A, likely higher with equipment as he could very easily hurt Yanagi.

-Kato would get a new key for New Grappler Baki which would put him at 9-A or At least 9-A depending of what you think is better, Katsumi briefly considered him as his new master, he was able to take a lot of hits from an injured Dorian before passing out.

-Suedo would get a new key for New Grappler Baki which would put him at 9-A or At least 9-A, he considered himself an equal to Kato and his attacks had no real effect on Dorian like Kato. He was able to take attacks from Dorian. I think the two should be in the same tier, but truly, I don't know how to scale both of them.

-Gaia would go from 9-A to At least 9-A, likely higher, because he could hurt Sikorsky.
 
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We don't but it's supposed that Gallen wasn't able to do anything.
At least 9-A possibly higher then?
 
Maybe possibly higher for Spec and Hanayama as well, given the big jump the latter makes in the next arcs at least.
 
I don't think it's enough to make him gain a possibly higher. Otherwise, we'd have to review the tier of opponents he faced during the maximum tournament and who they were able to hurt, and that would create some illogical points like the fact that Gallen one-shots Hanayama (even though he was injured from his fight against Katsumi), but that serious Jack is still well above him.

Or we separate Hanayama from the maximum tournament and New grappler Baki by creating a new key and put him at least 9-A, possibly higher on it. But I don't think it was mentionned anywhere that Hanayama got stronger.
Can you explain?
 
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I think your first two revisions make sense. I disagree with most of the others though and I’ll explain why.



Spec was vastly weaker than Hanayama. He only held out due to fighting dirty and using weapons. Hard no on his upgrade.



Sikorsky could possibly get an upgrade to At least 9-A. He only beat a crippled Gallen and beating Igari is in no way worthy of At least 9-A. Speaking of Igari, his profile needs to be fixed too. He should just be 9-A since he couldn’t do any damage to Baki without using sneak attacks and dirty tactics. He was easily beaten once Baki stopped holding back.



Dorian is very similar to Spec. He beat Katsumi easily due to fighting dirty and using weapons. His raw power is not worthy of a likely higher rating since someone with that rating absolutely destroyed him. I do however agree that his weapons give him a higher rating as he could cut off Doppo’s hand with his wire.



Yanagi has good stamina but his AP and durability are 9-A at best. He’s shown multiple times to be the weakest of the prisoners and comparable to Shibukawa.



Doyle scales far below fighters like Katsumi and Kosho who are only 9-A. He doesn’t need an upgrade and his weapons are already taken into account on his profile.



Kosho beating a 9-A only makes him 9-A.



Motobe’s proposed upgrade looks good.



Kato and Suedo need two keys. One for the maximum tournament and one for the prisoner arc since they both got stronger. Maximum tournament arc should just be 9-B, nothing crazy there. They’re far weaker than beginning of series Baki. Prisoner arc I would suggest At least 9-B possibly 9-A with 9-A durability due to them taking hits from Dorian. However, Dorian was toying with both of them so it’s unlikely he was going all out.



Gaia’s change is dependant on Sikorsky.
 
Ok for Speck and Dorian.

If Baki defeated Igari in the end, it's not because he was holding back until then, it's because he wasn't fighting at all, before he started to dominate Igari, there were several chapters where he didn't act once. Which included a lot of shots like this: pic1 pic2
Baki did not come out of that fight unscathed, Igari's blows were really affecting him. Igari was able to hurt Baki, Baki was able to hurt Igari, that's what matters for the AP in my opinion. And Sikorsky is much stronger than Igari, much more than Baki, even when he was dominating him. Baki dominated Igari with his technique and his knowledge of wrestling once he started moving. Not especially physically.
If we put Sikorsky at At least 9-A, we'll have to put Mohammed ali jr in there too, since the result of their two fights with Jack put them pretty much on the same level in my opinion. But it contradicts the fact that Junior is on the same level as Doppo. That's why I think Sikorsky deserves an At least 9-A, likely higher. Especially since he was already shown to be able to cause damage to Baki when his moves were successful, Baki just never let him act before ^^

I watched the series again yesterday (to introduce it to my brother ^^) and I don't see where it is implied that Yanagi and Shibukawa have the same strength, Shibukawa considers Yanagi too dangerous for him. We just know that he is the smallest of the 5. Doyle seems to me weaker than him.
Doyle's punch in the face had no effect and he took a lot of attacks from Baki. I think At least 9-A is not exaggerated.

When Katsumi defeated Doyle several times, he was already injured, and Kosho only attacked Doyle in the throat before losing. It's not possible to scale him to them.
But it's true that Retsu defeats him without any problem, which makes him deserve a 9-A. What made me hesitate was the fact that he was weaker than Yanagi, and that he was able to one-shot an opponent who had injured Igari. In this case the upgrade I propose is to change his higher with weapons to likely far higher with weapons or possibly far higher with weapons. Since he was one-shotting opponents who could defeat him.

Your solution with Kato and Suedo suits me since I didn't know how to tier them.
 
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Considering both sides of the argument, I’m leaning toward agreeing with Amlad’s proposal, but something this thread desperately needs is some staff input. Someone should contact a staff member to give their thoughts
 
I disagree with Spec being "vastly weaker" than Hanayama. Hanayama was certainly significantly superior, but not vastly so. Spec clearly wounded him with physical attacks, could struggle with him and tanked a few serious, 100% strikes.

I'd also like to mention that Suedo should be solidly 9-A in the Prisoners Arc. He's shown to tank a good strike from Dorian and actually be only slightly wounded, and said strike was apparently strong. The thing is that Dorian completely outskilled him and, with weapons and tactics, could completely overpower him at any moment.
 
@Venom



Maybe vastly weaker than Spec isn’t the best way to put it, but it only took a few hits for Spec to be down and unable to even stand up. That’s enough for 9-A but nothing more.



9-A Suedo for durability is fine. But his attacks didn’t do any damage to Dorian that we could see. So I’m still doubtful on a solid 9-A AP rating. He’s a tank so this makes sense. Even in the first chapter he was taking attacks from Baki despite not having the power needed to harm him.



@CuddleFox



The thing is Igari’s attacks didn’t do anything to Baki once he decided to actually try and fight back. Igari’s attacks hurt him when he was distracted and not trying to defend himself and I wouldn’t consider that to be scaling. Sikorsky on the other hand has a much better argument for an upgrade since he fought with a serious and pissed off Baki. Igari would have been smoked in two seconds if he went up against the Baki that trashed Sikorsky. I’d say Igari and anyone who scales directly to him should be 9-A while Sikorsky could get an upgrade.



Yanagi has fought Shibukawa in the past and they were implied to have a close fight. Even if you don’t count that, he couldn’t damage Baki at all without the usage of his hax abilities and Motobe (a solid 9-A character) was able to overpower him.



Doyle already has a higher rating on his weapons so he doesn’t need a change.
 
Amlad22 said:
Maybe vastly weaker than Spec isn’t the best way to put it, but it only took a few hits for Spec to be down and unable to even stand up. That’s enough for 9-A but nothing more.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.

Amlad22 said:
9-A Suedo for durability is fine. But his attacks didn’t do any damage to Dorian that we could see. So I’m still doubtful on a solid 9-A AP rating. He’s a tank so this makes sense. Even in the first chapter he was taking attacks from Baki despite not having the power needed to harm him.
Click to expand...
That's a good point. I do get the feeling that Suedo caused pain for Dorian when he struck them in the cartwheel, but fair's fair.
 
Is that really enough to put him a tier below then? There are other things besides his fight against Baki that can put him at At least 9-A, like the fact that he is equal to Kinryuuzan who completely dominated Motobe in the first round.

Motobe dominated Yanagi with equipment. I'm not counting his former fight with Shibukawa because it's in the past. He couldn't damage Baki, but Shibukawa considers him too dangerous for him. The last time he had a similar block was when he faced Jack.

The upgrade to the equipment I was proposing for Doyle was because he was able to hurt Oliva. Higher doesn't seem strong enough to represent the power gap between them, far higher fit better, even if Oliva was under the effect of a relaxant.

And again what about the possible comparison between sikorsky and mohammed ali jr in their fight with Jack?
 
So I went back and read the Igari fight again. I’m even more confident now than I was before that he should only be 9-A. His attacks were hurting Baki, but only when he wasn’t guarding. It’s like saying Spec scales equal to Hanayama bc he made Hanayama bleed while he wasn’t guarding. I wouldn’t even say Igari should have At least 9-A durability sicne they stressed in the fight that pro wrestlers have top tier endurance and resilience, not raw durability.

Motobe also overpowered Yanagi at one point in the fight with an arm lock and throw. As for Shibukawa, he considered Yanagi to be dangerous for the same reason everyone else did, he was extremely hax and could insta KO people far stronger than him with his poison hand and vacuum palm.

I think higher gets the point across. We know Oliva can be vastly weaker than normal if he isn’t trying to block or harden his body.

Sikorsky is going to get an upgrade to At least 9-A. Ali Jr is already At least 9-A likely higher so there isn’t any need for a change there. Ali Jr did far better against Jack than Sikorsky did.
 
I think it's just me, but it feels very weird to scale Sikorsky as the strongest convict. Spec and Dorian certainly "felt stronger" than him when I read the story.

But eh, not gonna question it.
 
Okay for Yanagi. 9-A. And Doyle too, I hadn't thought about Oliva's fluctuating durability.

Hanayama tanked plenty of Spec's attacks, Spec tanked 4-5 attacks from Hanayama before passing out the first time. That's why I agreed with you that Spec deserves 9-A.

Having a lower tier in durability means that you are unable to take hits from your opponent. If you tier Igari lower than Baki, it means that Baki's blows hurt him seriously and are way too strong for him but that by sheer force of will he manages to hold on, kind of like the fight Hanayama had with Shachihoko recently or during the maximum tournament with Inagi, but that's not what happens. Igari tanks Baki's attacks like any other character would.
It doesn't matter if you protect yourself or not, we are talking about a character who has at least the strength to destroy a house, who gets hurt when another character hits him and doesn't get out of the fight unscathed.

When Baki faced Oliva, before he went into demon back, his kicks in the nose had no effect even though it is a sensitive area, it's the same here. Unless it's specified, in my opinion it shouldn't be considered as a weak point attack, otherwise Mount Toba deserves At least 9-A since Baki defeated him only by exploiting his knee.
But I feel like we'll never agree on that, so we might as well conclude.
If we put Igari at 9-A, then we have to specify that he can lower durability with some of his attacks, even if I don't agree, would this solution suit you better?

To summarize the changes, I think that what we all agree on for now is:

CharacterOld tierNew tier
Baki Hanma (Maximum tournament)At least 9-A, far higher with Demon BackAt least 9-A, likely higher post Retsu, far higher with Demon Back
Gaia (As nomura)Unknown, likely 10-BUnknown, likely 9-B
Sikorsky9-AAt least 9-A
Dorian KaiohAt least 9-AAt least 9-A, higher with equipment
Ryuko YanagiLikely 9-A9-A
Izou Motobe9-A9-A, likely higher with equipment
Kiyosumi Kato---no key yet---At least 9-B possibly 9-A
Atsushi Suedo---no key yet---At least 9-B possibly 9-A
Gaia9-AAt least 9-A
Kanji IgariAt least 9-A9-A

And also, even if Kosho has no improvement I think he deserves an upgrade to supersonic speed in a new prisoner arc key, since he fought evenly with Doyle.
 
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Igari would be fine having at least 9-A for his durability only. He’s a pro wrestler and his entire thing is being tanky. Toba takes the time to talk about this during the fight with Baki. AP wise he should only be 9-A though. He specializes in joint locks and holds which can be used to harm people stronger than him. It’s no different than someone like Roland who was weaker than Katsumi but could hurt him with joint attacks.
 
I'm totally not the right person to judge this big amount of stuf, especially as it seems to be very plot-related and specific and scans aren't provided (but I think it would be hard anyway)

Althout, if an agreement has been reached among all the knowledgeable people, it should be good, I think.

It's still better to wait for inputs from more staff, though.

I can also call the supporters of the verse that didn't participate yet, if needed.
 
I just noticed that Oliva only has a 7-C durability while his orb technique allowed him to withstand Baki's Goutaijutsu in Demon Back. Do you mind if I add a "higher with the orb technique"?
 
No. Demon back Baki at that point was only 7-C. If you have more revisions you should save them for a future thread.
 
I don't think I'm going to make another CRT since for the rest of the series, only a few characters still need to be added (Joe crazier and the five grand sumos), and I'm fine with most of the tiers there's currently, that's why I'm allowing myself to slip in one last suggestion. ^^

I'm not talking about Demon Back Baki, but about Demon Back Baki's goutaijutsu. If you doubted, the beginning of the chapter where he use this technique remind you that it increases attack for one hit. https://manganelo.com/chapter/hanma_baki/chapter_72

And still, it wasn't able to scratch Oliva while his normal attacks were affecting him before, which means Oliva's durability increased by at least two steps.
Oliva's durability definitly deserves a "higher with the orb". Or at least a "likely higher with the orb"

YeNL2.png
 
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Oliva’s base durability is just slightly above baseline for 7-C. If he was closer to the halfway mark I’d be behind your idea but as of now the only thing giving the 7-C’s a “higher” rating is a demon back level boost. We can just note in Oliva’s powers and abilities that with the orb he can tank attacks that would normally do damage to him.

If a staff member wants to give their input I’d be fine with that too. Oliva’s base durability is just too close to baseline imo.
 
It’s better to get some staff input on something like this. From what I know it doesn’t seem necessary. It should be made clear in his powers and abilities that it increases durability if that’s not already there. Although I’m pretty sure BakiHanma18 already handled that. But we don’t give every character who has Statistics amplification a higher rating in their AP and durability.
 
Higher means higher, it doesn't have to be the same higher as Demon Back Yujiro.
Gotta ask @SamanPatou (sorry to ask you again on this topic), does "higher" means that you are considered the same level as someone who is also "higher", or can two higher be two differents levels?
But we don’t give every character who has Statistics amplification a higher rating in their AP and durability.
Click to expand...
Unless when it's specific, like this.

The orb is a technique that increases durability, the manga says it, and proves it, it makes no sense that it's not shown in his page imo.
How about "possibly higher" then?

When that will be ok, I will make all the changes we discussed.
 
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