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I feel like Zen'o didn't really erase all of the future timeline, but more so he erased a frame of time, which allows the present (and by association any concept of a future) to not exist. This could explain how the past can be so freely travelled to. Though I still don't understand Trunks's time machine travelling.

One of the most common time paradoxes, the Grandfather Paradox, suggests that if you go back in time and kill your grandfather so that your parents are never born, you will have never existed, so therefore how could you have time travelled?

Backstory​

When we see Zen'o destroy universes (specifically using U10 in this example), we see he is capable of non-local erasure. He erased U10 from inside the Null Realm, which included all except the Angel being erased while also inside the Null Realm, even property originating in that universe was erased.

So to suggest that Zen'o erased the whole timeline (nobody is saying he didn't) also suggests that Trunks and the time machine should've been erased, which would've made the plot of the show go far different. For one, no time machine or Trunks they wouldn't have been able to bring Zen'o back, and events back to DBZ would have been a paradox.

I understand that existence erasure in DB doesn't affect the history of timelines, but time travel itself does. However we consider destruction of a timeline as destroying ALL past/present/future.

There were 5 time rings before the Black Arc happened, the silver being the main timeline, and there were 6 after Zen'o erased the future. Even if you include Beerus erasing Zamasu creating another timeline where he wasn't erased, the net change of existing timelines would still be off by 1, unless Whis had already restored the future before Gowasu opened the time ring box, which would explain why there was 6 rings and not 5 (or 4?). But that isn't directly supported.

Whis's Actions + Paradox​

Whis states that it is possible to go back in time to a point where Trunks's future wasn't erased, effectively having two copies of Trunks and Mai. However this is contradicted later in the Tournament of Power Arc with the examples above. If Whis could go back to a point in the timeline before it was erased, then that would logically mean that some part of the timeline still exists. He specifically states that he will warn Future Beerus to use a far better sealing technique than the mafuuba, as destroying Zamasu would just create another timeline and repeat the Black Arc again.

However, if going back in time to prevent the Black Arc from happening again is an event that actually happens, then the fight in the future never happens which would contradict this entire arc even existing, and it would also mean that Zen'o is never summoned to Earth to erase the timeline in the first place. It should also be noted that the only stated people capable of manipulating time without effecting causality are Whis who can only rewind three minutes, and a Kaioshin wearing the time ring. Otherwise, going back into the past and changing it creates a new timeline. In which case Zen'o destroying the timeline would be like "capable of doing it, and did it, but actually didn't". Unless there's some weird quantum superposition thing going on where the universe is both simultaneously erased and existing at the same time. One thing that’s for sure is going back in time before Zen’o erased the timeline doesn’t create a new one by Whis’s statements.

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TL;DR: Is there an agreed logic we're applying to these events?
 
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2-C whis? Or 3-A zeno lmao?
More like the Zeno feat is legit because it proves that he can erase a timeline, but the feat is also false.

It suggests time in DB doesn't work to the same standard we treat timelines in the wiki. Zeno destroying the timeline in the present also keeps it destroyed in the future. But Whis implicitly states there is still time before the timeline was erased in which they could travel to.

Zeno proves he can erase a timeline, but by Whis going back in history and changing the course of the timeline before Zeno actually does, he never actually erases anything.

This would lead to two outcomes:

1. A paradox would exist and thus most of the Black Arc events would have never happened (which is the purpose of Whis telling Goku and Vegeta they have a superior sealing method)
2. This would create a parallel timeline in OUR timeline, one where Zeno is never brought to our timeline since he never erased his. However, this is directly debunked by the number of time rings remaining accounted for.
 
Where are you confuse

Spare no details.
So if zeno erased a timeline, but time still existed in the past, then that wouldn't be him destroying all the past present and future of the timelines correct? But his feat is still 2-C but despite this there's still time? And how can whis go back to the past of the future timeline (which shouldn't exist the ring broke) and that cause the future timeline to come back?
 
So if zeno erased a timeline, but time still existed in the past, then that wouldn't be him destroying all the past present and future of the timelines correct? But his feat is still 2-C but despite this there's still time? And how can whis go back to the past of the future timeline (which shouldn't exist the ring broke) and that cause the future timeline to come back?
1st question - Correct, that's why I have the theory that Zeno can only erase timelines in their present state, which eliminates any possibility of a future because there's no longer any time to create one , not that Zeno is capable of erasing the future and the present simultaneously. And clearly Whis proves there is still a past.

2nd question - This is tricky because we already rate Zeno as 2-C despite the timeline having a past. If we rate 2-C as destroying past/present/future, then Zeno technically shouldn't be at this tier. If you just need to erase any quantity of time on a multi-universal scale, he scales.

3rd question - The ring breaking only exists in the manga, but they can still go back to a time where the timeline no longer exists because of some dimensional frequency BS. To your second part, by them going back in the timeline way before most of the Black Arc events happen, the future will be changed, creating a unique timeline at that point.
 
Just saying in the manga after he erases all of the timeline. The time ring for future trunks future sharers and no longer exists
 
I'm rusty on my DB/DBS knowledge, so if I get something wrong or if I misunderstood your inquiries, then take my comment with a grain of salt.

I think that time travel in DB doesn't function linearly like that.
For example, Future Trunks travelling to the past, warning the Z fighters about the Androids, and helping them defeat the Androids and Cell had absolutely no impact on his timeline in the future. He still had to get stronger and defeat them on his own.
That is to say, time travelling in DB involves travelling to different points in time in different timelines. Trunks, for example, travelled from his present to the past of another timeline.

I'm pretty sure that the future Whis took him and Mai to was also part of a different timeline than the one Zeno erased.

At least this is my understanding of it. My apologies if I got something wrong or misunderstood your question.
 
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Zeno shouldn't be low 2-C

That is to say, time travelling in DB involves travelling to different points in time in different timelines. Trunks, for example, travelled from his present to the past of another timeline.
You are on the right track. Time Travel in DBS doesn't impact the original timeline. It just creates a new one. Hence merely erasing all the matter in the timeline can be considered as "timeline destruction" as the timeline is practically dead as time travel can't fix it. So unless there is explicit proof it should just be considered 3-A
 
Just saying in the manga after he erases all of the timeline. The time ring for future trunks future sharers and no longer exists
I addressed that earlier-

"3rd question - The ring breaking only exists in the manga, but they can still go back to a time where the timeline no longer exists because of some dimensional frequency BS. To your second part, by them going back in the timeline way before most of the Black Arc events happen, the future will be changed, creating a unique timeline at that point."
I'm rusty on my DB/DBS knowledge, so if I get something wrong or if I misunderstood your inquiries, then take my comment with a grain of salt.

I think that time travel in DB doesn't function linearly like that.
For example, Future Trunks travelling to the past, warning the Z fighters about the Androids, and helping them defeat the Androids and Cell had absolutely no impact on his timeline in the future. He still had to get stronger and defeat them on his own.
That is to say, time travelling in DB involves travelling to different points in time in different timelines. Trunks, for example, travelled from his present to the past of another timeline.

I'm pretty sure that the future Whis took him and Mai to was also part of a different timeline than the one Zeno erased.

At least this is my understanding of it. My apologies if I got something wrong or misunderstood your question.
I don't know what your paragraph is referring to so I can't really give a proper reply to that. But I do understand timeline changes produce their effects in the form of alternate worlds.

To the point after that, it was the same timeline. Whis says its possible to go back in time before "your world" was erased, and that there would be two copies of Trunks and Mai, because its the same timeline.
 
Honestly if all the space time was erased, how was even possible to get in the timeline by using a machine that travels using space time as reference tho? Like, it's a bit of a contradiction moving to an erased time with something that travels between existing times, isn't it?
 
Proof of that?
We know each universe has its own history simply by looking at uni 6, where their earth has a completely separate events take place that led to its eventual destruction, and then what the saiyans went through, their enslavement to frieza and king cold never happened, so simply off of that we can deduce that despite being twin universes, they have a different/separate progression of existence. And if that is held to be true, and the timelines encompass the 12 universes regardless of having separate spaces and separate history, then they must be connected on some sort of higher timeline or temporal dimension.
 
My biggest concern here is that nothing really stated that each universe has its indipendent flow of time, but Whis stated that there's only one between all of them:

Whis: "Manipulating time to travel between the past and future is a serious felony. Time is only supposed to flow in one, single direction. If you turn back time and change the past, even if you only, say, pick a single flower, it affects subsequent history. Cities and even entire cultures could be greatly altered, and ultimately, it might result in a planet being erased from the universe."

So, is there really a proof of each universe having its own time instead of all the 12 of them being under the same flow of time?
 
My biggest concern here is that nothing really stated that each universe has its indipendent flow of time, but Whis stated that there's only one between all of them:

Whis: "Manipulating time to travel between the past and future is a serious felony. Time is only supposed to flow in one, single direction. If you turn back time and change the past, even if you only, say, pick a single flower, it affects subsequent history. Cities and even entire cultures could be greatly altered, and ultimately, it might result in a planet being erased from the universe."

So, is there really a proof of each universe having its own time instead of all the 12 of them being under the same flow of time?
Zeno's page already explains this.
Note:
We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
 
Zeno's page already explains this.
Note:
We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
That's already discussed in a cosmology discussion thread for a blog about it iirc.
 
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