Clearing up Dragon Slayers vs Dragons mechanics

[Captain_Torch]

So, there's a certain thing that keeps on bothering me, and it is the Dragon Slayer vs Dragon mechanic.

First off, how all of this works:

- It's stated that "dragon's scales are so strong that, aside from Dragon Slayer Magic, no other form of Magic can pierce through them." (From the wiki , Chapter 329 for reference)

- Dragons have Resistance to any form of magic due to their hard scales (Chapter 328 , Pages 18-19)

- "Dragon Slayer Magic" (Remember that dragons yield DS magic as well) bypasses their scales

-> Since Igneel and Acnologia were fighting pretty equally: Durability of a dragon without his scales = his AP tier/Normal Durability (as per usual scaling). Which means that when Dragons/Dragon Slayers fight dragons, they hit the normal "without scales" durability of a drago

So overall, we get:

1)"Dragon Slayer Magic" bypasses a dragon's scales

2)A durability of a dragon without his scales should be considered his "normal" durability.


Why does this matter?

Well, in Chapter 541 , the wizards are discussing how to hurt Acnologia, since not only does he have his hard scales, but also can absorb all magic. Mirajane suggests using physical attacks instead of magic, such as swords, since he can't absorb them. However Erza denies the idea, saying that they would work only if enchanted with Dragon Slayer Magic.

The only way this system makes sense, is if a dragon can resist attacks in general, and not just magic (aside from Dragon Slayer Magic)

If physical attacks would bypass a dragon's scales as well, then there would be no need to enchant them with DS Magic.

Erza already was in the same situation in her fight with Irene, where Irene stated that she won't be able to cut through her scales despite cutting through the meteorite.


As for the inverse statement of "dragons being resistant to magic", it should be noted that in Fairy Tail, magic is the main way of fighting, so mentioning that dragons are also resistant to physical attacks would be simply uneccesary.

Conclusion:

My suggestion is to replace "Resistance to Magic" of dragons with

- a resistance to <insert whatever their scales have shown to resist here>,

or

- to add a "far higher with scales" to the Durability section of the profile.

Thoughts?

 

[1997KD]

I was trying to say this many time, finally, someone made this thread with proper words.

@also Captain Shiki get some more lifting feat in today's chapter

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Resistance to attacks seems a bit to broad and broken, rsistance to magic and physical attacks seems fine, they aren't shown resistance to any other things besides these two things in the series

They're normal durability is they're AP, they just have resistances to a lot of stuff

 

[Captain_Torch]

Resistance to attacks seems a bit to broad and broken, rsistance to magic and physical attacks seems fine, they aren't shown resistance to any other things besides these two things in the series

Yes, I didn't mean to say that they should get resistance to attacks, just that they should be resistant in general, not just to magic, but to other "tangible/physical" attacks as well.

I personally think that mentioning that their durability with scales is far higher is the best way to write this, since their "resistance" is more of a durability feat, rather than a resistance.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think it makes more sense for resistances added to their profile rather than higher with scales, it's not just that their scales are really strong, it's that the scales are resistance to all magic and physical attacks

 

[Captain_Torch]

Well, the point that the manga tries to make is that their scales are so durable, that "nothing"(inverse) can hurt them aside from DS Magic.

However I am neutral to the subject of whether to add resistances or durability buffs, so that's up to the majority to decide.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The point behind the change is fundamentally the same, whether we want to qualify this stuff as just really strong durability or resistance to Magic and Physical attacks isn't a huge concern, but I prefer the latter as it specifies exactly what we mean when we talk about their scales, plus Scales are technically an inherent thing they have, it's their natural durability, so the resistances make more sense, because they will always have their scales included in their durability unless their fighting a Dragon Slayer

 

[1997KD]

Bump

 

[1997KD]

Bump

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I agree with what Mitch said.

 

[1997KD]

Bump

 

[1997KD]

Bump

 

[The_Calaca]

I think we need to define what's up with dragon scales, because right now there's two possibilities:

• The dragons are just too durable and Dragon Slayer Magic has Durability Negation properties against them.

• The dragon scales have resistance to magic, rendering every magic attack useless against them sans those with Dragon Slayer attribute.

I think it's pretty clear that case 1 is the only logic outcome. The dragons are durable as heck, rendering most magic attacks useless because they are just above everyone in power. From what I can see, nothing actually suggest Resistance to Magic for Dragons, and the only reason why DS are effective against them would be due to their Durability Negation properties.

"But the Dragons are unscathed by everything a non-DS can do". Yes, because all of them are fodder. Even Erza with the Power of BS couldn't be compared to Irene's scales because there's no indication that she could make that power last for more than one single strike (which she used at the meteor).

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I agree with Calaca here, I always thought the way Dragon Slayer Magic is treated is pretty inconsistent. If they can outright ignore durability via Dragon Slayer Magic then the Dragon Slayers should have been able to negate Acnologia's durability. Wendy would have been able to dispatch of Irene in her Dragon form and Natsu and the other Dragon Slayers would have been able to deal with Atlas Flame and the other dragon slayers. I've always seen Dragon Slayer Magic as a magic that deals extra damage to Dragon like opponents, rather than outright ignoring the durability.


Also as Calaca explained above, Dragons are just that much more durable than other FT characters. While Erza could destroy the meteorite Irene summoned, Irene was sure she could have tanked the explosion and Erza knew she wasn't gonna be able to cut through Irene's scales. At this point it's made evidently clear that the Dragon's have insane durability. I think a better suggestion for Dragon Slaying Magic would be just to add it to the verse page and explain that it's specifically made to damage Dragons.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm neutral to Calaca's Argument, I'm ok with whatever the majority decide, however I'm leaning towards Calca, and in every Dragon's profile, we explain in their durability that's it's really tough due to their scales, the only Dragon we know for sure has Magic Reistance is Acnologia, I forget if the manga clarifies it specifically magic resistance

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I also side with Calacs here. In fact, he said what I was planning to that word stealer

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm ok with making a Slayer Magic page for Dragon, God, and Demon Slayer Magic, if Haki has a page, then I think we can and should make a Slayer Magic Page

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"The dragons are just too durable and Dragon Slayer Magic has Durability Negation properties against them.

The dragon scales have resistance to magic, rendering every magic attack useless against them sans those with Dragon Slayer attribute."

So what's the evidence for the former? I don't remember anything that makes the former more realistic to apply, when both options are pretty similar visually and can get mixed up.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Also as Calaca explained above, Dragons are just that much more durable than other FT characters. While Erza could destroy the meteorite Irene summoned, Irene was sure she could have tanked the explosion and Erza knew she wasn't gonna be able to cut through Irene's scales. At this point it's made evidently clear that the Dragon's have insane durability. I think a better suggestion for Dragon Slaying Magic would be just to add it to the verse page and explain that it's specifically made to damage Dragons.

Isn't this just a case of AP = Dura? Like, let's say Irene summoned the meteor and when hit the ground, the explosion killed her. That would just make her a glass cannon. Her being able to tank her own attack isn't an example of insane or super durability.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

No but it's a good sign that Irene's durability is above the metorotie. Erza could destroy the meteorite but couldn't damage Irene, so think of it like this.


Irene's durability >> PoF Erza>> Irene's meteorite.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay, that makes sense.

"If they can outright ignore durability via Dragon Slayer Magic then the Dragon Slayers should have been able to negate Acnologia's durability. Wendy would have been able to dispatch of Irene in her Dragon form and Natsu and the other Dragon Slayers would have been able to deal with Atlas Flame and the other dragon slayers. I've always seen Dragon Slayer Magic as a magic that deals extra damage to Dragon like opponents, rather than outright ignoring the durability."

The way I viewed it was that Dragons naturally had a resistance to magic and were physically durable as well.

"Limited Durability Negation and Magic Resistance Negation against Dragons (Her Magic is especially effective against those with dragon-like properties, bypassing their defenses)"

That's why the wording is like this, because the current way DS Magic is treated is that it negates the resistance dragons normally have toward magic and does extra damage against them. If it was just extra damage, then that means someone like Zeref would be able to easily kill a dragon with his death manip. I mention Zeref because he's one of the only Low 6-B non DS magic using humans (and he's referred to as being stronger than Irene so he could probably damage her normally) and his death magic got negged by Igneel's scarf which was made up of his scales and links back to the magic resistance thing.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Dragon Slayer Magic is Limited Durability Negation towards Dragons, and the Scales just make Dragons Durable as fuq, is that what we agree with

Cause Characters weak as fuq compared to the dragons were able to hurt them, so that's Durability Negation in my book

 

[The_Calaca]

@Dragon DSM has been stated to be the only effective thing against dragons. There's a third option, kinda Pokémon-esque, which is applying a weakness to all dragons to any form of Dragon Slayer Magic (which would include what Dragons do) just like how Dragon-Type is effective against Dragon-Type in Pokémon.

That or Durability Negation for being the only thing able to actually harm a Dragon outside of similar power (Igneel chomping Acno's arm it's physical damage).

@Cal

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Then what's the whole thing with Igneel's scales making Zeref's magic do nothing? Just him randomly having resistance to death manip specifically?

 

[The_Calaca]

Just like most other things in FT, being plot devices that works under plot convenience. Let's not forget that Igneel's scarf was never used to grant Natsu a single resistance besides to death hax, and even in the last arc it was never mentioned again.

Araki Mashima forgot.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I guess. So it just becomes

"Limited Durability Negation against Dragons (Her Magic is especially effective against those with dragon-like properties, bypassing their defenses)"

?

 

[Captain_Torch]

Just to clear something up - if dragons are just "super durable", then we should mention that their durability with scales is far above their AP (Erza's strike destroyed the meteor but wouldn't even hurt Irene), with DS magic bypassing their durable scales and dealing damage to their "actual" durability (which is = to their AP)

As for Igneel, his physicsl attacks also count as DS magic, given his dragon physique.

Overall I don't think it matters that much whether or not we give them Resistances via scales or better durability via scales. If the majority is leaning towards durability, then that's the option we should pick.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Dragon Yes.

@Torch That seems fine. Durability Negation hasn't been explicitly stated but it's well known that if they were able to harm dragons which are unaffected by attacks from people stronger than the DS, it makes pretty clear that DN is the deal here.

Otherwise, the dragons would be fodder in durability once you take the magic resistance away.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Why would it be dura neg when the DS were wailing on the GMG dragons constantly and didn't even dent them aside from Natsu amped by Atlas' flames and one kick from Wendy against Zirconis? It being resistance makes far more sense considering Acno and Igneel were walking off each others spells but the moment they went physical, they were losing limbs.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Anonymous

The only reason Acnologia was unharmed by Igneel's spells is because of his resistance to magic as a "Magic Dragon Slayer".

As for Igneel, as far as I remember the only spell that connected with him was the roar Acnologia used to finish him off.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Then Acno must resist dura neg in that case, along with every other dragon who got hit by DSM which would then scale to every dragon who didnt get hit. Except this causes even more issues as the dura neg comes from DSM which they apparently resist.

Magic resist on the other hand makes far more sense when we are explicitly told no other magic will work against them and we even have a feat of DSM bypassing MR in the Dorma Anim fight (edit: inb4 its dragon shaped). We never get told that its dura neg, no allusion that its dura neg, no mention of dragons being unstoppable because of their greater stats etc etc, just characters reiterating magic doesn't work against them.

 

[The_Calaca]

He resists magic, not Dura Negation. Otherwise we'd be adding this to almost everyone, and considering this wasn't discussed before when we currently accept both traits, there's no reason to discuss such thing now because it doesn't make any sense.

>Dorma Anim

Insert CJ.gif

There's no mention of dragons having magical resistance. They resist magic attacks from characters which are fodder to them. Durability Negation makes more sense because Tier 7 characters could harm albeit slightly Tier 6 dragons. If we say it's magic resistance and its negation, then the Dragons would have Tier 6 AP and Tier 7 Durability because the only thing DSM would negate is the magical resistance and doesn't actually grant them the ability to harm them int he first place.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Anonymous

Don't forget that this is "Limited Durability Negation" - it doesn't completely negate the durability, however it bypasses the durable scales of a dragon.

And as seen from Igneel & Acno, even when their scales are bypassed, their natural durability is still around their own AP level.

As for them resisting only magical attacks, I and Calaca already mentioned why that's not the case.

 

[1997KD]

What we are discussing right know? I'm confused af

 

[The_Calaca]

Anon is arguing that Dura Negation doesn't make sense while Magic Resistance does. Me and Torch are explaining why that's not the case.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If DSM is dura neg then dragons resist it as all of them shrugged off the DS in Crocus aside from Zirconis. You have one instance of "dura neg" and a dozen anti feats in the very same arc. Thats what is called an outlier.

Just statements of magic not working against them practically every time a dragon pops in or is relevant to a conversation. They also take attacks from comparable dragons so that doesn't make any sense unless dragons don't have the dura neg against each other for whatever reason. Except Tier 7s never harmed dragons aside from one outlier. A lovely solution if we didnt have dragons fighting each other and not harming each other despite direct attacks.

 

[The_Calaca]

They being unable to harm dragons doesn't mean they have magic resistance. Erza herself said that physical attacks don't work on them, so it's more logic to think that they are too durable for them, with the DS being the only characters able to pose a fight against them.

If the Durability Negation doesn't work just as good as it should be, that's because it's a massive game changer. There's a thread where it was discussed that attacking the internal organs is limited Dura Negation because the inner organs have to be comparable to the external body to take the shockwaves that'd come from the attacks. Basically saying that Saitama has Tier 6 lungs, for example. With this being considered, things like Goken from One Piece wouldn't help much against that, because the difference is massive.

DSM might be the same. They are able to bypass the scales, but the body is still too stronk to even be dented.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is Limited Durability Neg, Erza hurt Irene and the Dragon Slayers hurt the Dragons at Eclipse, this makes sense to me, their durability is strong as hell, while resistance would technically have the same effect on their profiles, majority of people seem to be leaning to just strong durability, which I'm ok with

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I'm still not sure on dura negation since it's quite inconsistent within the series itself. I'd be fine with "possible limited durability negation." Or minor durability negation.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What's the difference between Limited and Minor?