Bleach: possible upgrade for ichigoat probability manipulation and durability negation for True Zangestu.

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yhwach states both has similar kind of power



Yhwach was referring the future possibilities as hope



Even Aizen at the end of the series brought up the concept of hope



Gerald also used concept of hope to manipulate possibilities



Memories of Soul is a promotional scans dropped after shounen jump.

It stated as they transcended their fate.
https://imgur.com/a/xeWNzyd

Ichigo wished for a blade to shatter fate

https://imgur.com/a/EJ5Xhim

Even BBS brought up same topic of shattering fate.
( I know it's non canon just putting it here just in case)

https://imgur.com/a/wwKpsos

"I wish for power that can shatter fate itself". KLab actually used this quote for one of BBS's anniversaries.

True Zangestu should get probability manipulation and durability negation. As it's clearly stated the vision that yhwach saw was real and Ichigo was able to hit yhwach even though he had balance active at that point.



Yhwach and Jugram swaps their power when yhwach sleep. It's already in yhwach and Jugram page.

Sleep Induced Power Swapping: Yhwach and Haschwalth are two sides of a balanced scale. When Yhwach falls asleep, Haschwalth will gain his powers and Yhwach will gain Haschwalth power.

Yhwach

Yhwach (ユーハバッハ, Yuhabahha?) is the Father of the Quincy, the monarch of the Wandenreich, and the son of the Soul King, known by the designation "A" - The Almighty. As a baby, Yhwach was incapable of sight, speech, or even the slightest movement, but never feared or despaired, as he knew he would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Jugram Haschwalth

Jugram Haschwalth (ユーグラム・ハッシュヴァルト, Yūguramu Hasshuvaruto) is a Quincy and the Wandenreich's Sternritter Grandmaster (星十字騎士団最高位 (シュテルンリッター・グランドマスター), shuterunrittā gurandomasutā; Japanese for "Highest-Ranked of the Band of Star-Cross Knights") with the designation "B" - "The Balance". He is also...

vsbattles.fandom.com

1. Gerald used hope to manipulate possibilities.
2. Jugram uses fortune and misfortune to manipulate possibilities.
3. Ichigo killed yhwach with the tensa zangestu which is one the possibilities yhwach saw with almighty hax.

So in Conclusion I think Ichigo should get probability manipulation and durability negation based on concept of hope (based on yhwach explanation) / courage (based on Aizen explanation).

Possibility is he either created a new future or just changed a future where yhwach dies. Unlike yhwach he can't see future possibilities but he can just use whatever infront of him.

 

[Damage3245]

True Zangestu possibly should get probability manipulation and durability negation. As it's clearly stated the vision that yhwach saw was real and Ichigo was able to hit yhwach even though he had balance active at that point.

Balance doesn't make you immune to being hit. It allows Haschwalth to deflect damage onto his special shield; but Yhwach didn't have the shield up as he was asleep.

I don't think this is good enough for probability manipulation or durability negation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Balance doesn't make you immune to being hit. It allows Haschwalth to deflect damage onto his special shield; but Yhwach didn't have the shield up as he was asleep.

He doesn't need the shield to transfer damage from normal attacks. Uryu anthesis can bypass durability and it's even hyped enough as counter for almighty.

I don't think this is good enough for probability manipulation or durability negation.

Also check all the six scans above that future was one of the possibility yhwach saw and he even stated that was a real possibile future. So we can conclude true zangestu bypassing Balance.

 

[Nierre]

Nightmare on the Bleachgrade grind.

Following

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nightmare on the Bleachgrade grind.

Following

Can you give your input?

 

[LordGinSama]

Damage is correct. This isn't durability negation or even probability Manipulation. At best this would be treated as resistance to probability Manipulation since the Balance didn't reflect it back at Ichigo even then that's more of a "possibly."


Also by saying that Ichigo used durability negation here would hit him with a massive AP downgrade since we use him cutting Yhwach as AP.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Damage is correct. This isn't durability negation or even probability Manipulation. At best this would be treated as resistance to probability Manipulation since the Balance didn't reflect it back at Ichigo even then that's more of a "possibly."

Damage understanding for balance ability is wrong. So are you suggesting it's a resistance to probability manipulation?

Also by saying that Ichigo used durability negation here would hit him with a massive AP downgrade since we use him cutting Yhwach as AP.

Ichigo cutted yhwach with HOS Bankai or whatever you call it. Read the thread name True Zangestu is final form at the EOS. I was referring to durability negation for probability manipulation.

 

[Loyd]

Pretty sure the Balance requires thought base activation, it not a passive that will redirect you're misfortune constantly.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage understanding for balance ability is wrong

I beg to differ.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Pretty sure the Balance requires thought base activation, it not a passive that will redirect you're misfortune constantly.

I know but yhwach is not an idiot to sleep without activating balance what use would it be?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I beg to differ.

He doesn't need the shield to transfer damage from normal attacks. Uryu anthesis can bypass durability and it's even hyped enough as counter for almighty.

Also check all the six scans above that future was one of the possibility yhwach saw and he even stated that was a real possibile future. So we can conclude true zangestu bypassing Balance.

 

[LordGinSama]

Damage understanding for balance ability is wrong. So are you suggesting it's a resistance to probability manipulation?

Even if he is wrong, that doesn't change that fact that he's absolutely correct on this not being durability or probability Manipulation for Ichigo. Like I said, at best this is a resistance to Probability Manipulation.

Ichigo cutted yhwach with HOS Bankai or whatever you call it. Read the thread name True Zangestu is final form at the EOS. I was referring to durability negation for probability manipulation.

Yeah I'm aware, I've been an advent Bleach fans for years. That isn't durability negation, it's pure AP.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Even if he is wrong, that doesn't change that fact that he's absolutely correct on this not being durability or probability Manipulation for Ichigo. Like I said, at best this is a resistance to Probability Manipulation.

So your suggestion is resistance to probability manipulation? Ok Thanks. I will wait for some more people input and everyone has same opinion I will ask the mods to upgrade that

Yeah I'm aware, I've been an advent Bleach fans for years. That isn't durability negation, it's pure AP.

I was talking about True Zangestu .

Anyway thanks for input.

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree with that being added either. The vision/"dream" ends as soon as Yhwach is hit. We don't get to see what happens to Ichigo after that in that future possibility. Or if Yhwach even still has the Balance in that moment he's hit since he's no longer asleep but woken up.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I disagree with that being added either. The vision/"dream" ends as soon as Yhwach is hit. We don't get to see what happens to Ichigo after that in that future possibility. Or if Yhwach even still has the Balance in that moment he's hit since he's no longer asleep but woken up.

Sorry do i need to crop the image and upload it so that you can clearly see him sleeping with eyes closed.

Also yhwach is not an idiot to sleep without activating balance. What would be the use of swapping power if it has zero use.

 

[skippy]

I beg to differ.

Jugram redirects Misfortune to the shield, not damage. His ability Balance is not tied to the shield, look at when he uses it on Cang Du, he couldnt penetrate his skin and broke his sword then he used balance to kill him, we see a scale behind him tipping.
Cang's "good fortune" was shifted by the scales of balance tipping.
Jugram on Balance: by taking the misfortune that occurs within my Sphere of influence, and dispersing it to those that have fortuitous luck and lead charmed lives i maintain balance in the world.
Dont get it wrong the shield isnt that special, he Can redirect the damage unto the shield but he doesnt have to.
This is his ability basically so you two can figure it out.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Jugram redirects Misfortune to the shield, not damage. His ability Balance is not tied to the shield, look at when he uses it on Cang Du, he couldnt penetrate his skin and broke his sword then he used balance to kill him, we see a scale behind him tipping.
Cang's "good fortune" was shifted by the scales of balance tipping.
Jugram on Balance: by taking the misfortune that occurs within my Sphere of influence, and dispersing it to those that have fortuitous luck and lead charmed lives i maintain balance in the world.
Dont get it wrong the shield isnt that special, he Can redirect the damage unto the shield but he doesnt have to.
This is his ability basically so you two can figure it out.

Yeah. Main thing is Anthesis can bypass durability so Uryu was able to damage Jugram. Jugram just transferred the damage to shield and then that shield rained that misfortune on Uryu.

Uryu didn't even put a single scratch on Jugram without Anthesis.

 

[Damage3245]

@skippy; I'm aware of all that. By redirecting misfortune, he also redirects the damage he took. Hence why he was fine afterwards but the shield gained temporary nicks and damage.

 

[skippy]

@skippy; I'm aware of all that. By redirecting misfortune, he also redirects the damage he took. Hence why he was fine afterwards but the shield gained temporary nicks and damage.

Yeah if i remember correctly the shield was just made out of some kind of Gold and other material of the Quincy.

 

[Loyd]

It can be interpreted both ways considering the vision ends abruptly, did he bypass the balance or was it gonna ativate the next second. At best i'm fine with possibly probability resistance.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It can be interpreted both ways considering the vision ends abruptly, did he bypass the balance or was it gonna ativate the next second. At best i'm fine with possibly probability resistance.

Sorry? Bro i can zoom, crop and post the scan with a new link if you want. He opened the eye when the blade goes through his face and you can clearly see the above face when his eyes being closed.

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry? Bro i can zoom, crop and post the scan with a new link if you want. He opened the eye when the blade goes through his face and you can clearly see the above face when his eyes being closed.

That means nothing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That means nothing.

Why? If the manga scan Clearly shows how he got killed why doesn't it means nothing?

 

[Loyd]

Sorry? Bro i can zoom, crop and post the scan with a new link if you want. He opened the eye when the blade goes through his face and you can clearly see the above face when his eyes being closed.

the vision ends after that, we don't know if ichigo actually bypassed his balance or was Yhwach gonna redirect it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

the vision ends after that, we don't know if ichigo actually bypassed his balance or was Yhwach gonna redirect it.

I Clearly zoomed the upper portion where Ichigo cutted yhwach and seen it multiple times. I don't see him waking up. Yhwach woke up when Morning came. So both are not relatable as yhwach already got killed in one of the possibilities.

 

[Loyd]

I Clearly zoomed the upper portion where Ichigo cutted yhwach and seen it multiple times. I don't see him waking up. Yhwach woke up when Morning came. So both are not relatable as yhwach already got killed in one of the possibilities.

Im not following you tbh its a future he viewed like a dream why would it cut to two yhwachs (present and possible future Yhwach)

Haschwalth with his future sight(knowing the outcome) still warns Yhwach so its possible balance wouldn't have saved him and ichigo kills him there.

Although considering it works like a thought base hax could one use it asleep?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Im not following you tbh its a future he viewed like a dream why would it cut to two yhwachs (present and possible future Yhwach)

Haschwalth with his future sight(knowing the outcome) still warns Yhwach so its possible balance wouldn't have saved him and ichigo kills him there.

Although considering it works like a thought base hax could one use it asleep?

It's one of the future possibilities where Jugram showed it as a dream. Check the last two scans above.

 

[speedster352]

Bump

 

[foxhunter]

Bump

 

[foxhunter]

I think something like (limited if possible?->) resistance to fate/possibility will make the most sense here and fit the narrative most, disagree with durability negation and possibility manipulation for him tho.