Bleach God Tier Revisions Part 2 (Who scales to Yhwach only)

[Cyberblader90]

While this part shouldn't really be controversial, as we scale the characters that will be listed here already to Yhwach, I'm making this staff only to keep this clean and simple. This is basically just to update Ichigo, EOS Aizen, and Orihime's Shield durability to Scale Yhwach's 5B key. I will be posting evidence for them to scale and we can go from there.

Orihime:

(Check Folder)

Stopped 4 hits or more Yhwach with her shield, including when he was seriously fighting while using the almighty. (she blocked his hit but not the almighty). She also tanked the release of energy from hollow horn true shikai ichigo with her shield. She is already scaled to Yhwach for her shields only, so this is just to update them to 5B for her last key.

Ichigo:

• In Chapter 673, Soul King Yhwach marvels over Ichigo’s true power, albeit that doesn’t mean anything inherently, and Ichigo is able to cut through a more casual Yhwach’s reiatsu.
• In Chapter 676, Ichigo cuts into Yhwach with a combination technique.
• In Chapter 677, Yhwach proclaims that Ichigo is so powerful that he must remain on guard from here on out.
• In Chapter 678, Yhwach uses the Almighty to break Ichigo’s Bankai in the future where Ichigo can’t react or attempt to dodge/block because he concluded it was the only way to secure victory against Tensa Zangetsu.
• In Chapter 683, after having his Bankai restored by Tsukishima and Orihime, Ichigo stabs Yhwach and cuts him in half with a Getsuga Tenshou.
• In Chapter 684, Ichigo’s Tensa Zangetsu doesn’t shatter this time and when Yhwach breaks Tensa Zangetsu, Ichigo reveals True Zangetsu and kills Yhwach for good.

Ichigo is obviously meant to be one of the pinnacles of power within the verse, eventually attaining the power to slay an all-but-god. With his True Shikai Ichigo is able to fend off an Almighty Yhwach to a small degree, performing much better than the likes of Ichibe or Yamamoto, and is even able to cut through a casual Soul King Yhwach’s reiatsu. The Horn of Salvation allows Ichigo to truly scratch into the realm of power Yhwach sits in, by actually damaging him with a Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou and forcing him into being on guard. Finally, Ichigo’s Bankai is so powerful that Yhwach preferred attacking a defenseless Ichigo through the future as opposed to facing him head on, and this fear ended up being justified as Ichigo goes on to kill Yhwach with a Bankai Getsuga. Obviously, the fight concludes with the shell of Tensa Zangetsu peeling away to reveal the Zangetsu we are most familiar with as Ichigo kills Yhwach despite Yhwach’s power having returned.

While it is not feasible to scale True Shikai Ichigo to Soul King Yhwach, and it is even a bit debatable on whether or not his Hollowfied Shikai state scales either, it is undoubtedly the case that his True Bankai holds the power to fight on even grounds with Yhwach and eventually evolve to kill him.


Aizen:
Already scaled to yhwach on his page but I will give a refresher:

• In Chapter 682, Yhwach hits Aizen with a mass of reiatsu destroying his chair but not damaging Aizen.
• In Chapter 683, we learn that Aizen was able to put Soul King Yhwach under hypnosis with Kyoka Suigetsu. In that scan we see Aizen is missing the arm that Yhwach thought he took off from Ichigo and Renji, the crack marks on Kyoka Suigetsu are the same as those on Tensa Zangetsu, and later when Ichigo cuts Yhwach in half Tensa Zangetsu is perfectly fine, all implying that Yhwach was fighting Aizen the entire time. We even see Aizen capable of cutting through Yhwach’s reiatsu.
• In Chapter 684, Aizen confirms he released Kyoka Suigetsu prior to Ichigo and Renji arriving, confirming that the last fight witnessed was just between Aizen and Yhwach.
• This essentially means Aizen has a few more direct feats here:
  • Yhwach fails to break Kyoka Suigetsu fully with the Almighty
  • While seen as Ichigo, he tanks this blast.
  • Aizen survives this strike and continues fighting right after​
  • His anti feat of losing of losing his arm was via the almighty, which can affect beings as strong or potentially stronger than Yhwach (Ichigo's bankai, Ichibe) via fate manipulation. In the end Yhwach chose to absorb Aizen in a wave of energy to beat him.
    
    While Aizen isn’t shown to do any serious damage to Soul King Yhwach, he is capable of fighting him off for a brief period of time, tank a few attacks, and even his Kyoka Suigetsu isn’t destroyed by an Almighty attack which has been shown to destroy Tensa Zangetsu in the prior fight. Aizen himself displays a high level of confidence too and isn’t fighting thinking his loss is guaranteed, Yhwach himself is convinced he’s fighting Bankai Ichigo.

 

[Damage3245]

Guys, I'll put a reminder here that this is a Staff Discussion thread, meaning that non-staff - if you do not have permission - should not be posting so as to avoid clogging up the thread.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Guys, I'll put a reminder here that this is a Staff Discussion thread, meaning that non-staff - if you do not have permission - should not be posting so as to avoid clogging up the thread.

could we ping some staff for input, such as duedate for example

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah.

@Duedate8898 @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Jvando @Matthew_Schroeder

I would appreciate extra input from you guys to finish up this thread.

Personally I wouldn't scale True Shikai Ichigo to Soul King Yhwach at all given that he didn't manage to harm him until he used the power of his Hollowfication (and even then it wasn't a significant injury).

I had some reservations about True Bankai Ichigo scaling because (from Yhwach's perspective) when is on-guard and prepared against Ichigo, he is capable of simply catching his attack with one hand and shattering it easily. Of course this is complicated by the fact that this didn't actually happen, this was Aizen that he stopped easily with one hand, not Ichigo. Yet Yhwach, who is clearly capable of sensing Ichigo's level of strength / Reiatsu, didn't think it was weird that he was blocking Ichigo with one hand or one-shotting him in the chest just as easily.

I think it may be fair to scale both True Bankai Ichigo and Aizen partially to Yhwach, but it's still a bit sketchy. Also, since it was in fact Aizen who Yhwach was blocking with one-hand and one-shotting, what does that say about Aizen's strength relative to Yhwach?

 

[Duedate8898]

Simple enough. Don't really think this needed to be a staff discussion since its only ever been these three, anyhow I'll say it like this:
I agree with Orihime and Aizen with little issue. I don't think Yhwach failing to destroy KS is really a feat for Aizen is all. That could more easily be put down as Yhwach just not being able to direct All-Mighty properly due to the hypnosis.

For Ichigo, I agree that True Bankai and Merged Hollow Form should get the scaling as well.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Yeah.

@Duedate8898 @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Jvando @Matthew_Schroeder

I would appreciate extra input from you guys to finish up this thread.

Personally I wouldn't scale True Shikai Ichigo to Soul King Yhwach at all given that he didn't manage to harm him until he used the power of his Hollowfication (and even then it wasn't a significant injury).

I had some reservations about True Bankai Ichigo scaling because (from Yhwach's perspective) when is on-guard and prepared against Ichigo, he is capable of simply catching his attack with one hand and shattering it easily. Of course this is complicated by the fact that this didn't actually happen, this was Aizen that he stopped easily with one hand, not Ichigo. Yet Yhwach, who is clearly capable of sensing Ichigo's level of strength / Reiatsu, didn't think it was weird that he was blocking Ichigo with one hand or one-shotting him in the chest just as easily.

I think it may be fair to scale both True Bankai Ichigo and Aizen partially to Yhwach, but it's still a bit sketchy. Also, since it was in fact Aizen who Yhwach was blocking with one-hand and one-shotting, what does that say about Aizen's strength relative to Yhwach?

He tried jab through the chest earlier in the chapter and it didnt work, which means he's outputting more energy here. Also based on the indications of the next chapter, he knew ichigo was coming, so aizen is clearly fighting with strategy in mind. Keep Yhwach occupied for ichigo's attack

 

[Cyberblader90]

I don't think Yhwach failing to destroy KS is really a feat for Aizen is all. That could more easily be put down as Yhwach just not being able to direct All-Mighty properly due to the hypnosis.

This might be a possibility, but he was also able to remove aizen's arm with the almighty

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think it's clear Soul King Yhwach is superior to Muken Aizen, but it is also clear that the difference is not great enough where Aizen can’t fight Yhwach. Leading me to conclude that Aizen is somewhat relative to the level of power Yhwach wields.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it's clear Soul King Yhwach is superior to Muken Aizen, but it is also clear that the difference is not great enough where Aizen can’t fight Yhwach. Leading me to conclude that Aizen is somewhat relative to the level of power Yhwach wields.

Perhaps Ichigo and Aizen should just scale to Planet level, instead of "Planet level, possibly higher"?

 

[Cyberblader90]

i would be fine with that for aizen i guess. But ichigo i think should fully scale, at least in his last key. True Bankai + Hollow horn was a direct threat to yhwach if not for the almighty, and two thirds of his energy contributed to yhwach's final rise in power.

 

[Cyberblader90]

as for true bankai by itself, well, it killed yhwach twice

 

[Duedate8898]

I agree with flatly planet level for Aizen, Yhwach and Ichigo though seem closer in power with it appearing that Yhwach's primary reason for being superior was more due to his hax than any real AP advantage.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I agree with flatly planet level for Aizen, Yhwach and Ichigo though seem closer in power with it appearing that Yhwach's primary reason for being superior was more due to his hax than any real AP advantage.

agreed

 

[Damage3245]

Alright, that seems fine to me.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally don't mind if they all scale to Yhwach.

@Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @DemonGodMitchAubin @Shadowbokunohero @Starter_Pack @Theglassman12

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Damage3245]

I want to note that as part of this I'll be proposing a new discussion rule to be added for Bleach. Staff members that I've spoken to do not want this topic arbitrarily repeated in a month or two.

The current consensus, based on information from the manga and the newly released novels, should stand until any new evidence from the series comes forth that could change it.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I want to note that as part of this I'll be proposing a new discussion rule to be added for Bleach. Staff members that I've spoken to do not want this topic arbitrarily repeated in a month or two.

The current consensus, based on information from the manga and the newly released novels, should stand until any new evidence from the series comes forth that could change it.

What do you mean?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Wouldnt the Orihime stuff be an Outlier.

as for Ichigo and Yhwach, I don't have a problem with them being Possibly higher.

 

[Damage3245]

What do you mean?

As in I don't us to wrap this up and apply the new ratings to the profiles only for a repeat of the last CRT to come out in a month or two trying to upgrade the God Tiers back to Universal.

 

[Antvasima]

He means that he does not want to deal with Low 2-C upgrade threads every few weeks.

Edit: I made this post a bit too late.

 

[Cyberblader90]

also
about TS Ichigo
can't he be downscaled using the hollowfication and bankai multipliers?

 

[Damage3245]

Wouldnt the Orihime stuff be an Outlier.

as for Ichigo and Yhwach, I don't have a problem with them being Possibly higher.

Orihime has not antifeats at this stage. It is weird that she is able to block attacks from the strongest character in the verse, but this is only the durability of her shields. Not her other stats.

 

[Antvasima]

I want to note that as part of this I'll be proposing a new discussion rule to be added for Bleach. Staff members that I've spoken to do not want this topic arbitrarily repeated in a month or two.

The current consensus, based on information from the manga and the newly released novels, should stand until any new evidence from the series comes forth that could change it.

Anyway, I personally wouldn't mind.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Wouldnt the Orihime stuff be an Outlier.

as for Ichigo and Yhwach, I don't have a problem with them being Possibly higher.

her output is kinda dependent on her emotions. Plus there was a decently large enough time skip for her to train. Her abilities are also consider an anomaly inverse as stated by aizen .She rejects cause
her Shun Shun Rikka has always been capable of blocking people far above her i.e. Ulquiorra, Ginjo, Yhwach
she blocks yhwach 4 times, if not more(edited)
and ichigo's aoe when he uses his hollow horn

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

her output is kinda dependent on her emotions. Plus there was a decently large enough time skip for her to train. Her abilities are also consider an anomaly inverse as stated by aizen .She rejects cause
her Shun Shun Rikka has always been capable of blocking people far above her i.e. Ulquiorra, Ginjo, Yhwach
she blocks yhwach 4 times, if not more(edited)
and ichigo's aoe when he uses his hollow horn

I'm not sure I entirely Agree but it should be alright, it's not a big issue, but I do fear for the implications it will have in the future for other verses.

 

[Cyberblader90]

How would the discussion rule be phrased?

Lastly, damage i would like your input on ichigo downscaling via multipliers

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure I entirely Agree but it should be alright, it's not a big issue, but I do fear for the implications it will have in the future for other verses.

Please elaborate.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'm not sure I entirely Agree but it should be alright, it's not a big issue, but I do fear for the implications it will have in the future for other verses.

Not sure if this helps but her abilities kinda break the setting. She also has no anti feats for her shields in the final arc

 

[Damage3245]

I think it would be better if True Shikai Ichigo went unaffected for now. I'm planning another CRT in the future to clarify novel feats and novel scaling that may impact True Shikai Ichigo.

For now I think just Hollowfied Ichigo & True Bankai Ichigo need changing.

 

[Cyberblader90]

hmm while we are here is there anything to indicate his multipliers would be exponential?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I don't care too much for the tier.

But I do think Ichigo should easily scale to Yhwach, My dude chopped him up like Liver, Yhwach got around Ichigo via hax, Hell the whole reason he broke Ichigo's Bankai was because of how formidable it was., i think the Implications are enough.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Could we also ask staff that are here on their opinion on true shikai Ichigo downscaling

 

[Damage3245]

Could we also ask staff that are here on their opinion on true shikai Ichigo downscaling

From what I understand after speaking to other staff members, that kind of thing would only be considered when the multipliers are exact. Not an "at least 5x" like the average Bankai is.

It's pretty clear we don't consider his Bankai to be a straightforward 5x multiplier since in the past we had him as Multi-Continental with Shikai and Universal with Bankai.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'm slightly confused now with that answer though
correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't his page used that kind of system up until today?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Scaling in the OP look alright to me.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I dont personally have an issue with us backscaling.

even if it's at least x5.

the at least part would just follow suit No?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't agree with the back scaling True Shikai Ichigo for the reason that people will start trying to scale everyone in the Final Arc to Tier 5

Ichigo and EOS Aizen being 5-B is fine tho

True Bankai Merged Hollow Form Ichigo should be at least 5x stronger than his True Shikai Merged Hollow Form tho

 

[Cyberblader90]

To my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong please no one is currently being scaled to true shikai ichigo. There may be some in narrative implications from the novels that he was heavily holding back when fighting the stern ritter's, as surviving members that faced him struggle heavily with hikone and consider him a greater threat.

Yhwach also saw a large quantity of energy coming from Ichigo that he had previously not seen when they met when the soul King died so it could be narratively supported as well again that he was just suppressed earlier

 

[SilentBob34]

I don't agree with the back scaling True Shikai Ichigo for the reason that people will start trying to scale everyone in the Final Arc to Tier 5

Ichigo and EOS Aizen being 5-B is fine tho

True Bankai Merged Hollow Form Ichigo should be at least 5x stronger than his True Shikai Merged Hollow Form tho

I know I’m not supposed to post on this but I just wanna say in regards to people trying to scale everyone to tier 5, it was established in the novel that when Hikone asserted his reiatsu when not even around everyone, Candice could barely stand so Ichigo was holding back MASSIVELY until he fought Yhwach

 

[Cyberblader90]

This is one of those statements