black bulls, VS seven tealy sins (nanatsuno taisai)

[CyborgSakumo]

Thank you for finally admitting a point we're getting somewhere here.
So I bring up the above point.

Gauche clones Yami and secre(Identical in power)

Ban's hunter fest is negated by asta. (As evidenced by the point I referenced above)

Zora paralyzes gowther and Finral BFR's gowther.

Asta kills merlins ripping through her perfect cube like hot butter(she can't absolute cancel if she's dead and speed blitzed.)

Secre seals meliodas.

Yami's clone kills king.

Secre's clone seals ban.

Yami Dimension slashes escanor.

Noelle and Luck kill diane.

My only problem with Asta hax nullifying Ban's hax is the fact that he need to use his sword which I say that he can't because of Ban's statistic reduction hax, but let's agree to disagree on that point since we were just running in circles.
Secre can't seal Meliodas because of NLF rules, you have to proves that she can seal someone with far higher tier than her which you can't, like me saying Mel can FC Galactus's beam or Goku's kamehama Universal level.

Same for Ban, sealing is subject to no limit fallacy otherwise you can say that she can seal a planetary character or beyond lol.

Agree, Yami kill Escanor, he is ironically not helpful because he lack hax abilities.

Agree with Diane.

Secre sealed zagred as a 9-B he's a high 6-C. This isn't NLF. Also NLF is meant to apply to statements without proof. She has physical examples of sealing far above her weight class.

16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF)
This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy

 

[Dooyo]

Thank you for finally admitting a point we're getting somewhere here.
So I bring up the above point.

Gauche clones Yami and secre(Identical in power)

Ban's hunter fest is negated by asta. (As evidenced by the point I referenced above)

Zora paralyzes gowther and Finral BFR's gowther.

Asta kills merlins ripping through her perfect cube like hot butter(she can't absolute cancel if she's dead and speed blitzed.)

Secre seals meliodas.

Yami's clone kills king.

Secre's clone seals ban.

Yami Dimension slashes escanor.

Noelle and Luck kill diane.

My only problem with Asta hax nullifying Ban's hax is the fact that he need to use his sword which I say that he can't because of Ban's statistic reduction hax, but let's agree to disagree on that point since we were just running in circles.
Secre can't seal Meliodas because of NLF rules, you have to proves that she can seal someone with far higher tier than her which you can't, like me saying Mel can FC Galactus's beam or Goku's kamehama Universal level.

Same for Ban, sealing is subject to no limit fallacy otherwise you can say that she can seal a planetary character or beyond lol.

Agree, Yami kill Escanor, he is ironically not helpful because he lack hax abilities.

Agree with Diane.

Secre sealed zagred as a 9-B he's a high 6-C. This isn't NLF. Also NLF is meant to apply to statements without proof. She has physical examples of sealing far above her weight class.===16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF)===
This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy

So she can seal Goku and Meliodas can FC Goku as he has proof to FC far above his tier as well.

Got it lol

Fact is that she never seal someone with High 6-B tier

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Honestly it makes sense full counter doesn't require any energy regardless of the attack, that's been explicitly stated, if meliodas is capabale of reacting to an attack he should be capable of reflecting it.

Ok, so read here.

Sealing is typically the ability to place or seal one or more objects into another object, though there are various applications. The mechanism behind the sealing process varies greatly from fiction to fiction (be it through magic or ki use), though the end results are similar. When used as an attack, sealing techniques can often bypass physical durability entirely.

She could potentially seal goku(if she could touch him,which would never happen). This isn't NLF it's stuff I'm pulling right off the wiki, it might sound incredulous to you, but that's how the rules work here.

 

[Dooyo]

Honestly it makes sense full counter doesn't require any energy regardless of the attack, that's been explicitly stated, if meliodas is capabale of reacting to an attack he should be capable of reflecting it.
Ok, so read here.

Sealing is typically the ability to place or seal one or more objects into another object, though there are various applications. The mechanism behind the sealing process varies greatly from fiction to fiction (be it through magic or ki use), though the end results are similar. When used as an attack, sealing techniques can often bypass physical durability entirely.

She could potentially seal goku(if she could touch him,which would never happen). This isn't NLF it's stuff I'm pulling right off the wiki, it might sound incredulous to you, but that's how the rules work here.

So Mel can FC galactus beam, TOAA beam as long as speed is equalized?

I'm done

 

[CyborgSakumo]

If you don't like the rules you can leave, NLF applies to statemtents without explicit proof or explanation. Secre is capable of sealing meliodas, though if you really don't want to work with that, zora paralyzes meliodas and then finral BFR's, bye meliodas, gauche can make clones for the rest.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I'm done

Bye, remember to take your salt with you and take your 6-B ban with inmortality who can use snatch on people with fate manipulation too

Next time read the post above and stop wasting your time repeating the same thing 500 times without understanding our points

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Let me high five you for that.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Let me high five you for that.

• High five

 

[Dragoonseraphim]

Oh, did he finally give up on his arguments that have been disproven again and again?

 

[RicardoSama]

Oh lemme give some high fives too

 

[Dragoonseraphim]

Good job everyone high fives all around.

 

[AbcMac23]

So are we agreeing that the Sins will get rekt by the Bulls?

 

[Chianli]

ye

 

[MindControl116]

Just to summarize all the points above:

Ban uses Hunter Fest and kills the Black Bulls. Asta cannot revert it as he has no strength to hold the sword.

(1) Asta can hold a sword even with 0 strength, as witnessed during the fight against Vetto, in which he held the Demon-Slayer Sword with the help of Vanessa's threads, which were supporting his broken arms. (2) Charmy can regenerate their strength, and the Bulls can use reinforcement magic to amp their stats after Hunter Fest has already been cast. (3) Gauche can make clones of Asta after Asta's strength has been taken away. Gauche can do this because using magic does not require any physical strength whatsoever. (4) Ban would need to get into the base and actually find the Bulls in order to be able to kill them, but this would be impossible because the base changes shape due to recombination magic, and the base would be full of paralysis traps, and Finral can BFR, since his BFR is FTL.

Merlin seals her opponents in time.

(1) Nero/Secré/Best Waifu can unseal them. (2) Chrono Coffin takes too long to cast, with her shortest cast time being a few seconds, so against FTL characters, this would never work. It is far more likely that Nero would be the one to seal Merlin, if anything.

Merlin uses BFR.

(1) Her BFR has a 10-second period of vulnerability in-between, and the Bulls would be able to get back to the battlefield in that time, due to FTL travel speeds, which are not debunked by the character profiles, and due to Vanessa's Red Thread of Fate, which has had demonstrated feats of summoning people onto the battlefield. This is not to mention that Finral and Gauche have teleportation spells. (2) Finral would likely BFR Merlin before she BFRs anyone.

Merlin uses Perfect Cube.

Plenty of the mages in the Bulls can deal with this. Charmy can eat it, Grey can convert it, Nero can break it via unsealing, Asta can revert it or negate it, and Yami can bypass it via durability negation.

Merlin uses Absolute Cancel.

Asta can revert Absolute Cancel, in the rare case that she does not get blitzed.

Meliodas can Counter Vanish or Full Counter.

Those require some sort of precise timing, as stated in his profile and as demonstrated in the manga. The Bulls are adept at using spells in such a way as to throw off the opponent's timing. Regardless, the ash trap magic and Asta's anti-magic can deal with both of these cases anyway.

The Sins have higher AP.

Red Thread of Fate renders AP irrelevant, as none of the Sins have resistance to fate manipulation. Her spell is passive, by the way, this is stated in the profile, and the spell acts subconsciously, since Vanessa has no control over Rouge whatsoever. Also, the cat does not need to touch her allies or her opponent in order to act, and Rouge can do more than just be defensive, we have seen that Rouge can do things such as summoning allies onto the battlefield without any knowledge of their previous location, and can do so from the other side of the country. Also, from what has been demonstrated, this spell resists power nullification to an extent. It appears not even Asta can negate it, as we have already discussed earlier. But this is irrelevant. Even if you could bypass this, she could just recast the spell, no problem.

The Sins have higher durability.

Only Escanor, Ban, and Meliodas have high durability, and Dark-Cloaked Dimensional Slash negates durability. Ban lacks Regenerationn, and Meliodas will die if all hearts are destroyed, as they cannot be regenerated. Escanor has no meaningful Regenerationn, but even if he did, his strongest incarnation will only last a few minutes before he dies. If it comes to worst, they can be BFRd, though.

Gowther uses mind hacks.

(1) Asta resists mind manipulation, this is stated in his profile. (2) Blackout only works on weaker opponents, and it has a limited radius. (3) Invasion has to hit in order to be effective, and it can be reverted by Asta anyway. (4) Asta can blitz Gowther and undo the spell that makes him be alive, since he is a just an enchanted doll, technically speaking. If not, Nero can seal, though this is overkill, for sure.

Ban has Regenerationn in his strongest version.

No, he does not. (1) There is no purgatory key. So, using purgatory is invalid by the rules of the forum. (2) Even if there were a purgatory key, this wouldn't matter: Ban displays no significant AP feats during purgatory. This is why he has no purgatory key in the first place. He couldn't really harm the Demon King other than by playing mind games via Snatch and Gift as a support for Meliodas, whereas after purgatory, he fist fought the Demon King and dealt significant damage, showing definitively that he is stronger post-purgatory, and so, regardless, his strongest version still lacks Regenerationn.

The Bulls do not have FTL travel speed.

Some of them definitely do. Their profiles do not specify whether they have FTL combat speed or travel speed because they are just FTL all around via scaling, consistent statements, and feats. Those that do not have demonstrable FTL travel speed do have character profiles that specify that only their reaction speed is FTL, for instance. However, those that do not have such specifications have FTL all around because it is provable that they have FTL travel speeds. Regardless, this is not exactly relevant to the battle, due to teleportation and Red Thread of Fate, not to mention the Raging Black Bull: Charging Style.

[insert character] cannot take care of Ban, Meliodas, or Merlin because they will be taking care of another si

(1) Blitzing makes this irrelevant. (2) The Bulls outnumber the Sins.

Nero can seal Meliodas.

I am not sure she actually can, since for example, she can seal Zagred's soul, but seemingly, not Zagred at full power with his body and grimoire. Meliodas upscales Zagred, so I would find it difficult that Nero could successfully do it, although she could do something like seal his power, instead. Regardless, this is irrelevant. We have already discussed that Meliodas can be taken down by the Bulls, and in more than one way. so it doesn't actually matter if Nero sealing Meliodas is NFL or not, it literally just doesn't matter. His hearts can be destroyed, he can be BFRd, and they can also just outlast him and battle him until he has taken too much damage, to the point where he can no longer regenerate, which is a weakness that is stated in his profile. So destroying his hearts is not even a requirement. And that weakness makes it so that stamina matters far more than durability. And the Bulls win in the stamina department thanks to Charmy. Even if Meliodas has more durability, they can still take him down because of his weakness. Merlin couldn't help with any sort of healing, since she would get blitzed, and the same goes true for King and Diane.

 

[MindControl116]

If anyone brings up any of these points again despite having already been debunked, as summarized by my comment above, then I am most definitely going to get an aneurysm, and then someone here is going to have to pay for the medical bills. I'm just tired of people repeating previously debunked points. If someone can debunk the above without actually mindlessly repeating claims that have already been addressed before, then, well... but if not, then let us just finally agree that the Bulls definitely defeat the Sins here and move on. And I've reread both BC and NNT multiple times, and I am more than certain that there is no way of actually debunking the above. There is genuinely nothing you can say in favor of the Sins with regards to Red Thread of Fate or with regards to teleportation, for example.

Also, before you comment and try to debunk the above, I strongly recommend that you actually read the thread and each comment very carefully, and that you look at the character profiles of every single character involved before you make any comments. And PLEASE, for the love of our lord and savior Komi-san, read the rules of the forum, because I'm very tired of arguing against people who aren't willing to accept the rules or don't know the rules, and I'm very tired of arguing with people who claim to be familiar with the verses but are unable to provide scans and do not read what is stated in the profiles or are not even acquainted with whether something is in character or not. If you have a question to ask, then ask it, but don't go around making uninformed arguments just because you like a verse more than the other. If you, individually, don't find the rules to be philosophically compelling, that's cool! I know the rules aren't perfect, and I have a gripe with a lot of things about the wiki in general. But I still do my best to adhere to the rules. We're not going to stop adhering to those rules, so if you don't like the rules, you have two options: swallow the bitter pill and adhere to those rules as well, or just don't participate at all.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Since I was the one who brought up the Necre sealing meliodas , I just wanted to talk about it(it doesn't really matter in the context of this vs battles but for future reference I wanted to ask about it.) The reason MindControl brings up why it's questionable if necre can seal meliodas is because she couldn't seal zagred's body. The reason I don't really buy that point it because in

https://w11.mangafreak.net/Read1_Black_Clover_207 page 5,

where this is brought up, it's not brought up as an issue of lack of power, it's that it's an issue that her magic is 'of this world', which zagred has been shown to have a resistance to. Now again, this doesn't really matter in the context of this vs battles but I was curious on mindcontrol's opinion on this,

 

[RicardoSama]

High Fives all around.

 

[CaptainHulk23]

Bulls takes this because of two things
1 number advantage
2 speed advantage

 

[Arkenis]

damn

 

[Chianli]

i finally manage to get in