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BIG X784 revision proposal (basically me trying to redo some crappy earlier CRT's)

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So...this will be looking at some things I proposed from other X784 CRT's of mine, but with the "dots" of scaling between them connected, along with a bit more clean support along with a clearer proposition and a MUCH better understanding of the concept of "backscaling", which will be especially important.

In short...I propose that those like X784 Erza, X784 Natsu (or at least serious X784 Base Natsu), etc. should backscale from 27.3 megaton level people (like Laxus) to Baseline 7-B.



First off, let's talk about Natsu and Gajeel's fight with Laxus. It's obvious that Laxus has a clear power advantage over the 2, even with them fighting him together, as they needed a lot of luck to win against Laxus since the dude was a goddamn MONSTER.

However, the fact is, in Laxus's fight with Natsu and Gajeel, the 2 of them hold their own against him (even if there is still a notable gap) and tank plenty of hits from him.

Examples of either of them tanking Laxus's blows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Examples of them matching and/or hurting him: 1, 2, 3 (note how in this 3rd photo Natsu even draws a little blood from Laxus), 4, 5

With these many instances during the battle of Natsu and Gajeel holding their own against Laxus in regards of both tanking his blows and at the very least hurting him, it's clear to me at least that they should probably backscale from Laxus to Baseline 7-B (6.3 megatons), since it was still clear that Laxus still had the definite edge even if he was being hurt by their attacks.

Further support for this is how the Natsu that fought Zancrow (aka, the one responsible for the 2.4 megaton feat) was pretty casual against Zancrow, and tanked said 2.4 megaton attack with minimal damage. In fact, as Mitch said himself, Natsu was in his "less serious" emotional state when fighting Zancrow, so he clearly wasn't at his max power (and yet still tanked the 2.4 megaton blast with "minimal damage", to quote Mitch himself.

Besides, there's no way Gajeel and Natsu could've lasted so long against Laxus if each of them was less than 1/11th of Laxus's power. They'd have been one-shot.

Perhaps, since Mitch in another CRT mentioned how Natsu clearly has a power boost when he's serious compared to when he was casual, put his X784 self at "Low 7-B, 7-B when serious".



Erza:

First off, her Black Wing Armor (while weakened) did manage to hold its own for a while against Jose Porla, whom even complimented her power and said that she was one of the strongest people he'd faced and that she'd have been able to fight him even longer had she not taken the Jupiter blast

Second, Erza destroyed 200 lacrima at once with a single attack, when 300 lacrima would wipe out Magnolia. Those 300 Lacrima combined would thus have been a city-level threat, yet Erza had enough power to wipe out 2/3 of them at once with just one attack.


Mirajane:

1. Her Satan Soul: Halphas was so powerful that Makarov refused to let her use it for fear of her wiping out Magnolia. Yes, no timeframe is given, but the fact is that the story portrays her Halphas form as a city-level threat.


Here's how all the X791 scaling would look:

X791 Millianna level people: Upscale from 6.3 megatons (Since X784 Base Natsu < X791 Max < X791 Millianna)

X791 Natsu level people: 66.02 megatons, or 7-B+ (As Orga, who is comparable to Natsu, got a 3825 on the MPF while Millianna got a 365)

X791 people who one-shot X791 Natsu level people but are below X791 Jura level people (Strongest Armor and CHC Erza, Beast Soul Elfman): Baseline 7-A, or 100 megatons (as they will backscale from the below value for X791 Jura like they currently do).

X791 Jura level people (and the Eclipse Dragons): 147.47 megatons (7-A), a value which the people who one-shot Natsu level people (like Erza in Strongest Armor or CHC) will backscale from just like they currently do

X791 Lucy level people: 33.01 megatons (1/2 of X791 Natsu level people)

X791 Ezel level people (or 4x X791 Lucy level people): 132 megatons (7-A), and the Alvarez soldiers would scale above this


Look, I know this is like my 70th Fairy Tail upgrade and based on some of my earlier (and not well-written) early CRT'S, but I have found new evidence and new statements (some of which are from Mitch himself), and such I have a clearer idea of how I think the characters should backscale (so instead of a delusional 1/2 scaling like I did before, they should just backscale to baseline 7-B FRA).

I was just thinking about this stuff and had it on my chest, so here's all the stuff I found supporting this opinion of mine.
 
I'll finally address this seriously
First off, let's talk about Natsu and Gajeel's fight with Laxus. It's obvious that Laxus has a clear power advantage over the 2, even with them fighting him together, as they needed a lot of luck to win against Laxus since the dude was a goddamn MONSTER.

However, the fact is, in Laxus's fight with Natsu and Gajeel, the 2 of them hold their own against him (even if there is still a notable gap) and tank plenty of hits from him.

Examples of either of them tanking Laxus's blows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Examples of them matching and/or hurting him: 1, 2, 3 (note how in this 3rd photo Natsu even draws a little blood from Laxus), 4, 5

With these many instances during the battle of Natsu and Gajeel holding their own against Laxus in regards of both tanking his blows and at the very least hurting him, it's clear to me at least that they should probably backscale from Laxus to Baseline 7-B (6.3 megatons), since it was still clear that Laxus still had the definite edge even if he was being hurt by their attacks.
This is literally the exact same argument as the last CRT... Which was unaccepted, so yeah, go read that if you forgot why we didn't accept this

I'm not scaling X784 Base Natsu in any capacity to Base Hades, not to mention the gap between the two literally has to be at least 6x based on the multipliers
Further support for this is how the Natsu that fought Zancrow (aka, the one responsible for the 2.4 megaton feat) was pretty casual against Zancrow, and tanked said 2.4 megaton attack with minimal damage. In fact, as Mitch said himself, Natsu was in his "less serious" emotional state when fighting Zancrow, so he clearly wasn't at his max power (and yet still tanked the 2.4 megaton blast with "minimal damage", to quote Mitch himself.
Yeah, X784 Base Natsu "could" scale above 2.4 Megatons, but this alone isn't much proof of anything
Besides, there's no way Gajeel and Natsu could've lasted so long against Laxus if each of them was less than 1/11th of Laxus's power. They'd have been one-shot.
Let me rephrase this in a way you'll understand

"There's no way Gajeel, Laxus, Wendy, Sting, and Rogue could've lasted so long against Acnologia if each of them was less than 1/11th of Acnologia's power. They'd have been one-shot. Therefore we should make each of them 5-B in Base"

There's a lot of caviats as to why they beat Laxus
Perhaps, since Mitch in another CRT mentioned how Natsu clearly has a power boost when he's serious compared to when he was casual, put his X784 self at "Low 7-B, 7-B when serious"
No
First off, her Black Wing Armor (while weakened) did manage to hold its own for a while against Jose Porla, whom even complimented her power and said that she was one of the strongest people he'd faced and that she'd have been able to fight him even longer had she not taken the Jupiter blast
He wasn't going serious against her... But ehhhh, maybe I could entertain the idea of backscaling Erza, it just doesn't feel very solid to me
Second, Erza destroyed 200 lacrima at once with a single attack, when 300 lacrima would wipe out Magnolia. Those 300 Lacrima combined would thus have been a city-level threat, yet Erza had enough power to wipe out 2/3 of them at once with just one attack.
The Lacrima explicitly reflect back equal damage to the user that was done to the Lacrima, this isn't an argument
Mirajane:

1. Her Satan Soul: Halphas was so powerful that Makarov refused to let her use it for fear of her wiping out Magnolia. Yes, no timeframe is given, but the fact is that the story portrays her Halphas form as a city-level threat.
This isn't a valid argument
Look, I know this is like my 70th Fairy Tail upgrade and based on some of my earlier (and not well-written) early CRT'S, but I have found new evidence and new statements (some of which are from Mitch himself), and such I have a clearer idea of how I think the characters should backscale (so instead of a delusional 1/2 scaling like I did before, they should just backscale to baseline 7-B FRA)

I was just thinking about this stuff and had it on my chest, so here's all the stuff I found supporting this opinion of mine.
The gap between Makarov and X784 Base Natsu level people has to be at least 6x, so yeah

Ugh, I hate having to be the bad guy
 
I'm not scaling X784 Base Natsu in any capacity to Base Hades, not to mention the gap between the two literally has to be at least 6x based on the multipliers
What is this 6x multiplier, exactly?
Let me rephrase this in a way you'll understand

"There's no way Gajeel, Laxus, Wendy, Sting, and Rogue could've lasted so long against Acnologia if each of them was less than 1/11th of Acnologia's power. They'd have been one-shot. Therefore we should make each of them 5-B in Base"

There's a lot of caviats as to why they beat Laxus
Bit of a difference between Acnologia effortlessly stomping the Dragon Slayers and Gajeel and Natsu both taking a lot of hits from Laxus and drawing blood at least once from Laxus.
He wasn't going serious against her... But ehhhh, maybe I could entertain the idea of backscaling Erza, it just doesn't feel very solid to me
He still complemented her power and called her a strong foe, and this is while she was still injured from Jupiter.

Also, if the gap between Makarov and X784 Base Natsu really is 6x (although I don't know why), then if Base Natsu is 1/6 of the 27.3 megaton feat (or 4.55 megaton), then considering Strongest Armor Erza one-shot Aria her strongest armor could upscale due to the moderate gap between 6.3 and 4.55 megatons.
The gap between Makarov and X784 Base Natsu level people has to be at least 6x, so yeah
Explain plz
Ugh, I hate having to be the bad guy
You're anything but the bad guy, if anything I'm the bad guy.
 
What is this 6x multiplier, exactly?
X784 Base Natsu<GMG Base Sting and Rogue<GMG Dragon Force Sting and Rogue (At least 4x above X784 Base Natsu)<X791 Base Natsu and Makarov (2x above GMG Dragon Force Sting and Rogue)

The gap is in total at least 6x
Bit of a difference between Acnologia effortlessly stomping the Dragon Slayers and Gajeel and Natsu both taking a lot of hits from Laxus and drawing blood at least once from Laxus.
Eh fair, but still, there's no way in hell we're scaling X784 Base Natsu in any capacity to Base Hades
He still complemented her power and called her a strong foe, and this is while she was still injured from Jupiter.

Also, if the gap between Makarov and X784 Base Natsu really is 6x (although I don't know why), then if Base Natsu is 1/6 of the 27.3 megaton feat (or 4.55 megaton), then considering Strongest Armor Erza one-shot Aria her strongest armor could upscale due to the moderate gap between 6.3 and 4.55 megatons.
Ugh fine, I guess with feats from Erza vs Jose and Erza vs Jellal, and how narratively Erza is a Wizard Saint level opponent, we can backscale her to baseline 7-B
You're anything but the bad guy, if anything I'm the bad guy.
Nah, you're not a bad guy
 
X784 Base Natsu<GMG Base Sting and Rogue<GMG Dragon Force Sting and Rogue (At least 4x above X784 Base Natsu)<X791 Base Natsu and Makarov (2x above GMG Dragon Force Sting and Rogue)

The gap is in total at least 6x
1. Shouldn't it be 8x?

2. Doesn't X791 Natsu scale above Makarov?

I mean, X791 Natsu >= Hades Form Franmalth = Base Hades >> X784 Makarov.

Base Natsu in X791 is definitely not the same as X784 Makarov, so I'm not sure the above scaling chain is totally valid.


Eh fair, but still, there's no way in hell we're scaling X784 Base Natsu in any capacity to Base Hades
Well Base Hades is well above Makarov (who is comparable to Laxus), as he stomped Makarov in Base.

And he still beat Laxus. Laxus just put up a pretty good fight IIRC.
Ugh fine, I guess with feats from Erza vs Jose and Erza vs Jellal, and how narratively Erza is a Wizard Saint level opponent, we can backscale her to baseline 7-B
The narrative just seems to be really in favor of Erza's maximum being near Saint level as of X784.

It's not too different from her X791 self beating monsters who "even a Saint would struggle with", with the implication being that said Saint-level monsters were near the level of X791 Saints like Jura and such.
Nah, you're not a bad guy
Appreciate it, mate.

I heavily respect all the work you do on this forum for Fairy Tail.
 
1. Shouldn't it be 8x?
I suck at math apparently
2. Doesn't X791 Natsu scale above Makarov?

I mean, X791 Natsu >= Hades Form Franmalth = Base Hades >> X784 Makarov.

Base Natsu in X791 is definitely not the same as X784 Makarov, so I'm not sure the above scaling chain is totally valid.
Well you're using the 30.9 Megatons that comes from X791 Base Natsu for the scale regardless, so I still don't agree

I just don't agree with scaling X784 Base Natsu level people to Base Hades in any regard, Team Natsu all squaded up and attack Base Hades and they did zero damage, there's no backscaling here at all
 
Well you're using the 30.9 Megatons that comes from X791 Base Natsu for the scale regardless, so I still don't agree
I mean also story scaling wise X791 Base Natsu scales well above X784 Makarov.
I just don't agree with scaling X784 Base Natsu level people to Base Hades in any regard, Team Natsu all squaded up and attack Base Hades and they did zero damage, there's no backscaling here at all
1. They should still scale to Laxus, who is somewhat below Hades due to both being about the same as Makarov (who Hades clapped) and still losing to Hades. It was only when Natsu went LFDM that he won.

1.5. Besides, Hades scales well above the 27.1 megaton value in Base alone (which is why he clapped Makarov). So it isn't really scaling to Hades level people.

2. I mean, IIRC, a combined attack from Lucy, Wendy, and Natsu did knock Base Hades back (even if he wasn't really hurt by it).
 
2. I mean, IIRC, a combined attack from Lucy, Wendy, and Natsu did knock Base Hades back (even if he wasn't really hurt by it).
This is kinda adding to the issue. Let's say they all backscale to 6.3 megatons. An 18.9 megaton attack hits this 30.91 megaton dude and it does absolutely nothing (it knocks him back but when he comes out of the smoke, he's completely unharmed). That doesn't really make sense.
 
This is kinda adding to the issue. Let's say they all backscale to 6.3 megatons. An 18.9 megaton attack hits this 30.91 megaton dude and it does absolutely nothing (it knocks him back but when he comes out of the smoke, he's completely unharmed). That doesn't really make sense.
The 30.91 megaton stuff wasn't a serious attack from Silver from the way he described doing it, plus Hades also scales >> 27.3 megatons so I doubt his limit is 30.91 megatons (as that's only a 13% gap, and I doubt Hades was only 13% stronger than Makarov considering how badly he stomped him).

And a 60% gap in power is still rather large, especially since the gap was only as "low" as 60% when they attacked together, as individually they were each only 1/5 of Hades's power at best (since as I just said I doubt his limit was 30.91 megatons considering how badly he stomped a 27.3 megaton character).
 
How about we put Natsu at "Low 7-B, 7-B when serious", since in a previous thread where I had tried to downgrade X784 Natsu Mitch talked about how Natsu was far stronger when he got serious.

Those like Erza and Gray would scale to Serious Natsu (who backscales to 6.3 megatons) while those like Lucy and Wendy would scale to semi-serious Natsu (aka 2.4 megatons)
 
How about we put Natsu at "Low 7-B, 7-B when serious", since in a previous thread where I had tried to downgrade X784 Natsu Mitch talked about how Natsu was far stronger when he got serious.

Those like Erza and Gray would scale to Serious Natsu (who backscales to 6.3 megatons) while those like Lucy and Wendy would scale to semi-serious Natsu (aka 2.4 megatons)
Mitch already said no to this idea, and I agree with him, that's basically just Empowerment
 
Maybe we can just scale Natsu and Gajeel's durability to Baseline 7-B, since they did take PLENTY of hits from Laxus (at least 5-6 times), and at least in X784, Natsu (and IIRC a bunch of people on his level) can take a lot of damage from those >= to them.

Him having that level of durability is actually far more consistent than him having that kind of AP as of X784.
 
Eh ... I sorta agree with Eseseso here. If people really wanna use the DF multiplier for Sting and Rogue and scale it to Wendy's x4, we should also apply Natsu's x3 statement for X784 DF from Nirvana. A direct statement > an assumption, regardless of the logic behind it. Tossing out x4 for Sting and Rogue while scaling Serious Natsu to 1/3 of Silver's calc is perfectly fine imo.
 
Eh ... I sorta agree with Eseseso here. If people really wanna use the DF multiplier for Sting and Rogue and scale it to Wendy's x4, we should also apply Natsu's x3 statement for X784 DF from Nirvana. A direct statement > an assumption, regardless of the logic behind it. Tossing out x4 for Sting and Rogue while scaling Serious Natsu to 1/3 of Silver's calc is perfectly fine imo.
My brother in Christ, what are you on about?
 
My brother in Christ, what are you on about?
Mitch is arguing a x8 difference between Makarov and Base Natsu by scaling Wendy's DF being > x4 amp to Sting and Rogue's DF. Nothing says their DF is a similar boost to hers whereas Natsu states his Nirvana DF was a x2-3 boost. Nirvana DF = ToH DF = LFDM >> Hades >= 30.91 megatons. Ergo a serious base Natsu scaling to 10.3 megatons or, if you wanna say his estimation was off and make his DF a x4 amp, 7.73 megatons (basically the OP's suggestion for scaling the Natsu tiers to baseline 7-B) makes a lot more sense than disregarding a bunch of feats and Natsu's own statement for a single assumption based on the name of the technique.
 
My brother in Christ, what are you on about?
Mitch is arguing a x8 difference between Makarov and Base Natsu by scaling Wendy's DF being > x4 amp to Sting and Rogue's DF. Nothing says their DF is a similar boost to hers whereas Natsu states his Nirvana DF was a x2-3 boost. Nirvana DF = ToH DF = LFDM >> Hades >= 30.91 megatons. Ergo a serious base Natsu scaling to 10.3 megatons or, if you wanna say his estimation was off and make his DF a x4 amp, 7.73 megatons (basically the OP's suggestion for scaling the Natsu tiers to baseline 7-B) makes a lot more sense than disregarding a bunch of feats and Natsu's own statement for a single assumption based on the name of the technique.
To explain what Blank is referring to:

So when X784 Natsu uses Dragon Force against Zero in chapter 159, he says it's a 2 to 3 times multiplier over his base (and he doesn't say "at least 2-3 times", just that he feels like he is 2 or 3 times stronger than his base, so 3x is just the highest possible multiplier value).

And we know that X784 LFDM Natsu is comparable to X784 DF Natsu as it was stated in the story.

Now, to be safe, we should lowball and assume a 3x multiplier for X784 LFDM/DF Natsu, which should be fine since unlike DF multipliers in X791 and beyond, it isn't "at least" a certain number for the multiplier, it's just between 2 and 3 times.
 
Fine... You guys are forcing me to do something I never wanted to do...

Completely revise the DF Multipliers

In fact, I'm going back to drawing board

Gonna probably end up revising a lot of the verse now, so look forward to that
 
Fine... You guys are forcing me to do something I never wanted to do...

Completely revise the DF Multipliers

In fact, I'm going back to drawing board

Gonna probably end up revising a lot of the verse now, so look forward to that
But being serious here...what changes are there going to be from this?

I'm seriously confused here.

How big changes to the verse are we looking at here?
 
Mitch is arguing a x8 difference between Makarov and Base Natsu by scaling Wendy's DF being > x4 amp to Sting and Rogue's DF. Nothing says their DF is a similar boost to hers whereas Natsu states his Nirvana DF was a x2-3 boost. Nirvana DF = ToH DF = LFDM >> Hades >= 30.91 megatons. Ergo a serious base Natsu scaling to 10.3 megatons or, if you wanna say his estimation was off and make his DF a x4 amp, 7.73 megatons (basically the OP's suggestion for scaling the Natsu tiers to baseline 7-B) makes a lot more sense than disregarding a bunch of feats and Natsu's own statement for a single assumption based on the name of the technique.
Honestly, I think that if (and that's a HUGE if) there was backscaling of 1/3 of Dragon force, it should be from 1/3 of the 27.3 megaton value (due to Makarov level people like Jellal), as to avoid a scaling chain with X791 level people.

Let me put it like this:

Base X784 Natsu was smacked around by X791 Max, who should be below Millianna (whose MPF score of 365 was considered "very high" and at least powerful enough to be a squad leader, so she should be notably stronger than X791 fodder like Max).

As we know, Millianna got a 365 MPF score, so 365 MPF >= Base X784 Natsu.

If we used Silver's calc and used the above backscaling to divide by 3, then 365 MPF would be 10.3 megatons while Orga's score of 3825 (which all the main people including Silver-tier people scale to) would be 107.969 megatons.

But then comes the problem that Silver would scale to this, so then Base Hades would scale as well, and thus so would X784 LFDM Natsu, therefore creating a nasty looping scaling cycle since now Base Hades would scale to 107 megatons, making it not logical to scale him to the 30.91 megaton calc.

BUT, if we scale LFDM Natsu to 1/3 of Makarov's calc, we can avoid this scaling crisis, even at the cost of a slightly lower calc to scale from.

So using Makarov's calc and backscaling Base X784 Natsu to 1/3 of it via the stated multiplier of 3x, we get a Base X784 Natsu with a power level of 9,088,460.72 tons of TNT.
Enough to give me a headache

So yet again, thanks for that
Uh...sorry?

Honestly was NOT planning on this when I dumped all my thoughts into this CRT.

On the bright side...maybe the scaling will be smoother once this is all over?
 
The scaling means **** all if it’s gonna give someone a headache dude. I’m gonna try helping Mitch out with revising the Dragon Force stuff.
 
There's just no way to have X784 Base Natsu be 1/3 of Base Hades and make it work

Like it just doesn't make any sense at all
 
10.5 Megatons<<<GMG Arc Sting and Rogue<<<15.45 Megatons

Legitimately makes no ******* sense
 
Honestly, as long as it isn't anything that affects X792/X793 tiering I won't really care.

Those High 6-A and 5-A upgrades Mitch made back in February made sure of that.
 
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