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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

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SE ulqirrora is most definitely stronger than all the espada. Ulq saying their are 3 others above him is wrong. 1 hes only referring his 1st release which was ranked by aizen not the 2nd. And to be technical their was 4 if you count yammy. Stated by zangestu himself vasto lorde ichigo is above ichigos striped mask which is above the espada. Ulq was able to cutt VL ichigos horn so he somewhat scales. Not to mention kubo himself said the hellverse fight between VL ichigo and ulq was more accurate than the one in the manga. But do to time constraints kubo made it seem like VL ichigo just stomped ulq. When in actuality he intended for them to be relative.

Aizen didn't know about SE ulq or he just didn't give it a rank. From what ulq says aizen hasn't seen so hes likely unaware. Plp argue aizen created ulq so their for he knows his power level. Not true the espada can still train and get stronger even after given power.
 
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i never noticed tbf when her milkers out like that u cant blame me for not focusing on the number, also ill just ignore this fact
The fact they were out there for all too see is exactly why you should have noticed. Ulq's 4 also disappeared from his pectoral when he entered his first Res. We can see this cuz he doesn't have sleeves or a chest covering. Just a dress for his abdomen down and a turtleneck.
 
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The fact they were out there for all too see is exactly why you should have noticed. Ulq's 4 also disappeared from his pectoral when he entered his first Res. We can see this cuz he doesn't have sleeves or a chest covering. Just a dress for his abdomen down and a turtleneck.
mate i wont notice the color of a waifus underwear much less that am down bad for my waifus
 
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Ulq was able to cutt VL ichigos horn so he somewhat scales
Cutting off the horn of an off guard Ichigo doesn’t warrant scaling. FH Ichigo’s physicals > Lanza del Relampago = SE Ulq’s strongest attack.


Not to mention kubo himself said the hellverse fight between VL ichigo and ulq was more accurate than the one in the manga
This is objectively false, I have the raws and all they say is “the anime/movie renditions of this fight are super awesome because they can capture motion manga cannot”. He never said “Hell Verse’s interpretation > manga’s”.


Aizen didn't know about SE ulq or he just didn't give it a rank
Directly contradicted by three things:
1. Aizen referencing SE Ulq when talking about the new power Ichigo acquired hinting that he is aware.
2. Yammy after sensing SE Ulq die, goes into Res and claims he’s > Ulq which is backed up by the databooks.
3. Ulq admitting there are 3 Espada above him even if Ichigo managed to defeat him. Defeating Ulq in this context would mean beating him at his strongest, as we see Ulq doesn’t show restraint and even if he doesn’t need SE to win the fight he’ll still enter it as seen with Ichigo.
 
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👀 boi wants the smoke ima scrap with him, lol I posed the question for the deliberation so I don’t mind people giving takes even if it’s devils advocate.
 
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i think reio is being sarcastic lol
Nope im fr ulq scales lol

Cutting off the horn of an off guard Ichigo doesn’t warrant scaling. FH Ichigo’s physicals > Lanza del Relampago = SE Ulq’s strongest attack.


Why would him being off guard lower his durability? He was literally changing up a cero so hes still in combat mode. You also ignore the fact VL ichigo had to hard his hands to break. Also ulq off set one of VLs ceros and before you say he had to use CO which is a 10× amp doesn't matter cuz he tanked tge blast from both ceros



This is objectively false, I have the raws and all they say is “the anime/movie renditions of this fight are super awesome because they can capture motion manga cannot”. He never said “Hell Verse’s interpretation > manga’s”.



Directly contradicted by three things:
1. Aizen referencing SE Ulq when talking about the new power Ichigo acquired hinting that he is aware.

This is inherently wrong this is a narrative stand point to show how much ichigo got stronger. Just cuz it showed ulqs SE doesn't mean he seen or aware of it. Those pictures were their to show the reader how ichigo evolved from ichigo. Has nothing to do with aizen knowledge of SE . These flash back also show events with rukia ichigo and chad which aizen has not seen.

Also further evidence suggests aizen doesn't know jack.Only When he got hit with getusga did he realized how strong ichigo had gotten.

2. Yammy after sensing SE Ulq die, goes into Res and claims he’s > Ulq which is backed up by the databooks.

The same databook said yammy he had respect for his power which literally contradicts that statement he also sensed Full hollow ichigo and still thought he could take on ichigo despite his power being above the espada. Ulq even in the manga thought yammy was fodder and treated him like trash. He even said yammy can't beat yourchi yet ulq himself thought he could beat her.


3. Ulq admitting there are 3 Espada above him even if Ichigo managed to defeat him. Defeating Ulq in this context would mean beating him at his strongest, as we see Ulq doesn’t show restraint and even if he doesn’t need SE to win the fight he’ll still enter it as seen with Ichigo.

Yeah just to intimidate ichigo and thats in reference to the his 1st release which is ranked not SE. No way will i ever except those 3 being above se ulq who has way better feats.
 
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That's just an argument from disbelief

Something like watching early DBZ and saying there is no way freeza is below cell cus cell never blew a planet and freeza did
 
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Basically it comes down to this imo:

1) Saying “Aizen doesn’t know about SE therefore the rankings don’t apply based on Ulq saying Aizen hasn’t seen it” is just as valid as “Aizen hasn’t seen it visually but still knows about it as hinted in his speech with Ichigo thus the rankings are valid” under equal interpretation. Which means neither of these interpretations can be used to make a concrete claim thus we dig further.

2) We are told over and over again that the Espada are ranked on power/spiritual power/strength etc. Lower rank = stronger, and well 3, 2, and 1 are lower than 4.

3) Ulq admits that beating him is futile because there are 3 Espada stronger than him. We know Ulq will use his full power in a fight even if he isn’t being pressed into using it, so no reason to assume that when he says “even if you beat me” he’s only referring to his base or Res, Ulq in an all out fight will use all his power before losing, as he is extremely loyal to Aizen. It’s not in character for Ulquiorra to lie either.

4) People cry that Ulq has better feats, well Ulq has better feats than God Aizen so I guess SE Ulq > God Aizen. SE Ulq has a better on screen feat than Yhwach (ignoring statements), but if you can’t believe characters can scale above other characters without on screen feats, SE Ulq > Yhwach too. Feats aren’t limiters.

5) People love to use lies about what Kubo said about HV, claiming it’s the “canon” version despite that never being stated.

People deadass see Ulq go oog booga big explosion and then go full monkey thinking he must be the strongest.
 
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That's just an argument from disbelief

Something like watching early DBZ and saying there is no way freeza is below cell cus cell never blew a planet and freeza did
Which is way i say feats contradict. Yammy is ranked the strongest yet he gets negged by Kenpachi not even trying
 
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Then what's the point of ulq saying aizen didn't see his SE form? That completely disregards the narrative even the databooks say aizen has not seen the form

Ulq saying 3 espada are above is him not taking into account his 2nd form which is unranked.He doesn't even include yammy in that statement which contradicts it. Ulq even considered yammy weaker than himself and yammy never said he was wrong when he made the claim.
 
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Muken Aizen's KS needs a range upgrade. KS can affect all different multiverse timelines that Yhwach is watching. Like KS was able to control every single event that happened in those timelines from their sight, touch, smell, hearing, taste, and reikaku. Including all of the "people/movment" that everyone on those timelines did to convince Yhwach that he wasn't under KS when using Almighty.

EEWs69LXoAE-ah3.jpg
 
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Then what's the point of ulq saying aizen didn't see his SE form? That completely disregards the narrative even the databooks say aizen has not seen the form

Ulq saying 3 espada are above is him not taking into account his 2nd form which is unranked.He doesn't even include yammy in that statement which contradicts it. Ulq even considered yammy weaker than himself and yammy never said he was wrong.
Not seeing does not mean he does not know of it

He never said "those 3 are above my 1st form" the statement is made in general

FYI the number of espada 3 and above also disapear from their bodies

Yea, base tammy is weaker than everyone, this is obvious as his base level is 10
 
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Then what's the point of ulq saying aizen didn't see his SE form
Further Ichigo’s despair by Ulquiorra being much stronger than anticipated and by extension the top 3 being far above what Ichigo can handle.


Ulq saying 3 espada are above is him not taking into account his 2nd form which is unranked
ReS HaRrIbEl is unranked too, not really an argument that his number isn’t visible.


He doesn't even include yammy in that statement which contradicts it
Yammy doesn’t even store enough power to go rank 0 until after Ulq dies so this is a null point.
 
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A kenpachi we know gets a boost after each fight + close death battles
Not seeing does not mean he does not know of it

He never said "those 3 are above my 1st form" the statement is made in general

FYI the number of espada 3 and above also disapear from their bodies

Yea, base tammy is weaker than everyone, this is obvious as his base level is 10


If aizen has not seen this form he wouldn't know how strong it is as he can't sense how strong SE ulq truly is cuz it's sealed.

Okay i could say ulq is talking about his base when he says their is 3 others stronger than him
 
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If aizen has not seen this form he wouldn't know how strong it is as he can't sense how strong SE ulq truly is cuz it's sealed.

Okay i could say ulq is talking about his base when he says their is 3 others stronger than him
I’ve never seen the earthquake the erupted random volcano number 3 but I can still find out it’s yield. Aizen pre-planned Ichigo’s fights, it goes against the narrative to argue he was entirely unaware, most you can say is he doesn’t know what it looks like visually.

Ulquiorra said “even if you beat me there are 3 Espada stronger”, you’d have to beat SE Ulq to beat Ulquiorra he wouldn’t hold back and lose in his base form we see that’s not how he fights.
 
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Imma just steelman for a sec that Aizen didn't know about SE and was only aware that he left behind his Cero Espada and his 4th Espada. That doesn't help your stance at all. When Ichigo pulled up against Aizen, Aizen was disappointed in his strength at the time and expected him to be stronger. Why would this be the case? Did Ichigo not just fight SE Ulq who you tote as the strongest Espada and get a huge amp off of him? Considering Aizen left behind his strongest Espada (Yammy) and expected Ichigo to be stronger by surpassing Yammy (which he never did since they never fully fought) than he was surpassing SE Ulq, its really telling as to the gap between their power when surpassing one is disappointing while the other was expected to give Aizen a scrap.
 
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I mean even the Databook says that Ulq is weaker Than Yammy and others, Kubo in that list put Yammy above Starrk in his 0 Espada form while Ulq was still the 4th meaning his statement about 3 others stronger than him is correct
Kubo did give Yammy 2 ratings one for this weakest form and one for his 0 form, why didn't he do the same for Ulq? Simply because Ulq's statement was correct
 
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I mean even the Databook says that Ulq is weaker Than Yammy and others, Kubo in that list put Yammy above Starrk in his 0 Espada form while Ulq was still the 4th meaning his statement about 3 others stronger than him is correct
Kubo did give Yammy 2 ratings one for this weakest form and one for his 0 form, why didn't he do the same for Ulq? Simply because Ulq's statement was correct
Prolly the best summary of the argument, if Ulq had a form that changed his rank, it would’ve been listed just like Yammy’s.
 
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Imma just steelman for a sec that Aizen didn't know about SE and was only aware that he left behind his Cero Espada and his 4th Espada. That doesn't help your stance at all. When Ichigo pulled up against Aizen, Aizen was disappointed in his strength at the time and expected him to be stronger. Why would this be the case? Did Ichigo not just fight SE Ulq who you tote as the strongest Espada and get a huge amp off of him? Considering Aizen left behind his strongest Espada (Yammy) and expected Ichigo to be stronger by surpassing Yammy (which he never did since they never fully fought) than he was surpassing SE Ulq, its really telling as to the gap between their power when surpassing one is disappointing while the other was expected to give Aizen a scrap.

Yes aizen expected him him to be stronger. And SE ulq did infact push him to the level his VL form which is above his striped mask. The striped masked form we see aizen fight is improper hollowfication form. Stated by zangestu himself. Do to ichigos fear of his full hollow form he fought ulq in. He started suppressing himself and holding back cuz he didn't what his full hollow to come out again.

So yeah That's why aizen is disappointed. He expected ichigo to be far above 1st res ulq but that wasn't the case.. Instead he fought s much weaker striped mask ichigo
 
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I mean even the Databook says that Ulq is weaker Than Yammy and others, Kubo in that list put Yammy above Starrk in his 0 Espada form while Ulq was still the 4th meaning his statement about 3 others stronger than him is correct
Kubo did give Yammy 2 ratings one for this weakest form and one for his 0 form, why didn't he do the same for Ulq? Simply because Ulq's statement was correct

That's based on the know power levels by aizen i don't think it's taking into account SE ulq.

But the databooks does say ulq didn't show aizen his 2nd res form and also stated ulq is the only espada able to achieve that level.
 
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Only Espada to have a second release =/= strongest Espada

The Vizards are the only captains to have hollow masks but they aren’t the strongest captains

Unique form doesn’t make you the strongest
 
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That's based on the know power levels by aizen i don't think it's taking into account SE ulq.

But the databooks does say ulq didn't show aizen his 2nd res form and also stated ulq is the only espada able to achieve that level.
That list is from Kubo in the databook, how is it based on Aizen’s belief?
Are you saying that Kubo feared that Aizen will break the 4th wall and read the databook and says oh shit Ulq you had that form, and Ulq will be like oh no why did you do that Kubo I told you to keep that as a secret, like seriously I don't think it's stated on Aizen’s belief and even if it was, Kubo isn't that dumb to repeat that again in the databook while it's wrong.

Look there are many statements and all that Ulq’s fans are saying is "this is only about the 1st release", "this is only Kubo repeating some wrong stuff".
There is nothing that supports that.
their reasons are Ulq has better feats..etc which can be made to say Ulq is the strongest dude in the anime which is definitely wrong, it's like saying, for example, u know unmasked says "Aizen transcended everything" but yeah it's talking about Ulq 1st release only because unmasked was only repeating Aizen’s wrong statement, and it's a wrong a statement because Aizen doesn't know about SE so yeah and SE has better feats
 
lmao came back to take another look at that thread and what I'm getting is that the only logical explanation for that scene to make sense is if WotL and SS are separate space-times.
Which, to be fair, they could be.
 
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Pretty sure Adam has immeasurable speed and uni AP, so if you get Yhwach to uni+ Adam can’t do damage. But Adam is so much faster.
 
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I mean, the fact that they are spatially separate, strongly implies that they are temporally separate as well.

And this hasn't been explicitly contradicted.
Now there’s evidence to say they share the same axis of time. Going back in time in SS reminded time in WotL.
 
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Pretty sure Adam has immeasurable speed and uni AP, so if you get Yhwach to uni+ Adam can’t do damage. But Adam is so much faster.
Even if we allow that Yhwach's Miracle increases not only strength but speed as well. Eventually, Yhwach will adapt (Pernida) and get to that level.
 
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The soul king is really 2-A. If he created the bleach universe then he would have have to have created the infinite timelines girkio talks about
 
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Spoilers for Record of Ragnarok ahead!

After watching Record of Ragnarok, I have come to a conclusion, that Adam will never win against Yhwach.

Yes, Adam will be able to copy all of Yhwach's powers amp x2 and may even kill Yhwach, but...

A. Adam only copies the powers of those he faces in battle and doesn't keep the powers from people he has fight before in his lifetime. Evidence when he didn't used the Serpent God powers against Zeus or any other power that didn't belonged to Zeus himself. Meaning Adam doesn't have the speed advantage.

B. Adam has no way of killing Yhwach for good who can revive his soul even after been destroyed. Adam doesn't possess the power to erase souls from existence that happens to all souls in Record of Ragnarok, as that is the lore of verse itself.

C. Adam's Godly Reflection / Eyes of the Lord ability have a limit of 7 minutes and 13 seconds before Adam goes blind and losses his power. Now wherever Adam died from overheating or Zeus punches is for debate but irrelevant in this discussion. Eventually, Yhwach will end up killing Adam.
 
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Spoilers for Record of Ragnarok ahead!

After watching Record of Ragnarok, I have come to a conclusion, that Adam will never win against Yhwach.

Yes, Adam will be able to copy all of Yhwach's powers amp x2 and may even kill Yhwach, but...

A. Adam only copies the powers of those he faces in battle and doesn't keep the powers from people he has fight before in his lifetime. Evidence when he didn't used the Serpent God powers against Zeus or any other power that didn't belonged to Zeus himself. Meaning Adam doesn't have the speed advantage.

B. Adam has no way of killing Yhwach for good who can revive his soul even after been destroyed. Adam doesn't possess the power to erase souls from existence that happens to all souls in Record of Ragnarok, as that is the lore of verse itself.

C. Adam's Godly Reflection / Eyes of the Lord ability have a limit of 7 minutes and 13 seconds before Adam goes blind and losses his power. Now wherever Adam died from overheating or Zeus punches is for debate but irrelevant in this discussion. Eventually, Yhwach will end up killing Adam.
Agreed except he can erase souls with standard Valkyrie equip
 
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Agreed except he can erase souls with standard Valkyrie equip
Source? The explanation the anime gave was that souls (Adam and everyone in the verse is in heaven, so they are mentioned to be souls) once they bleed and die they don't reincarnate or move on to another afterlife. Their soul body breaks into crystal dust into outer space making Record of Ragnarok afterlife occupy the same dimension as Earth like Bleach. That Lu guy looked inspired by Kenpachi, he even torn his arm off. XD
 
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Funny how Shiva’s create and destroy the world on a whim statement is literal but surviving the Big Bang isn’t…
 
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Source? The explanation the anime gave was that souls (Adam and everyone in the verse is in heaven, so they are mentioned to be souls) once they bleed and die they don't reincarnate or move on to another afterlife. Their soul body breaks into crystal dust into outer space making Record of Ragnarok afterlife occupy the same dimension as Earth like Bleach. That Lu guy looked inspired by Kenpachi, he even torn his arm off. XD
They have to erase the soul to win.
 
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Funny how Shiva’s create and destroy the world on a whim statement is literal but surviving the Big Bang isn’t…
That statement doesn't make sense in the context of the story actually. Cronos existed before Zeus was born, and the universe too. So Zeus made up a story of how created the universe, when we know Adam was created by God who the anime made the religions scene of him and Adam finger thingy. Also Adam is supposed to be a mirror copy of God who copies all the abilities of all the "False Gods" in the verse.
 
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Naw the anime blends so many religions, but they clearly state Zeus survived the Big Bang and the anime states he created the universe gg
 
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Naw the anime blends so many religions, but they clearly state Zeus survived the Big Bang and the anime states he created the universe gg
Which is completely contradicted by all the evidence on panel against one single statement made by a character laughing his ass-off.
 
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are we about to see a record of ragnarok crt
even if adam had unis lvl of ap it doesnt matter yhwach absorbs him and calls it a day
 
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Not at all lmao, the announcer makes some of those statements
The commenter who thought Zeus created the universe? I wonder where did he heard that story from in the story. Was he informed that Cronos and Young Zeus fought in outer space in an already existing universe?
 
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The “universe” in Bleach existed before Reio so I guess he can’t be universal since you obviously can’t create universal constructs within a wider cosmos.
 
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The “universe” in Bleach existed before Reio so I guess he can’t be universal since you obviously can’t create universal constructs within a wider cosmos.
For someone who is very knowledgeable in Bleach, you forgot that the universe didn't existed. It was a Chaotic World. The universes were made afterward. In the fight between Zeus and Cronos we see Galaxies and Zeus can't be the beginning of everything Big Bang if he himself was born after the universe who was rule at the time by his father the creator of time itself.
 
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the RoR verse gods dont have feats on the level of nasuverse gods idk what your doing, is thr a statement that the true god in RoR that blessed adam with his eyes is omnipotent or something?

it doesnt matter now, on vsbw he needs feats of copying conceptual stuff or its a nlf
 
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Thanks lol don’t know how I missed that

do we treat shikai Kenpachi and True Shikai Ichigo as just >than 875 petatons? Or do we factor in Kenpachi’s multipliers to that?
Base no eyepatch CFYOW Kenpachi scales above/to Res full power Hikone, TS Ichigo scales above Res full power Hikone.
 
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Doesn’t the manga state erase souls or am I trippin
to put it simply if u die on the ring u are erased, its not the opponents doing the erasing

say like if u put 2 shinigami there (neither has EE) but one kills the other on the ring, then the loser is erased cus his soul is dead

they aint like quincy which really do erase souls with their arrows
 
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there seems to be a few people who think the EE is done by the fighters, idk why (only one i can think of that always says that is the bleach hub guy)
 
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Ok so anyone who play BBS feel that SAFWY banner has higher chance than Aizen anniversary? Apperantly players got 2 *5 in that banner.
 
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Base no eyepatch CFYOW Kenpachi scales above/to Res full power Hikone, TS Ichigo scales above Res full power Hikone.
Yeah I understand, and sorry to ask since I know you’re focused on other things as well, but do we take in account Kenpachi’s multipliers from TYBW arc? Cause technically speaking his CFYOW bankai would be baseline moon level lol

And then how do we rate true shikai Ichigo in comparison to that? Do we rate him as the same level as shikai Kenpachi since both were stated to be able to easily beat Hikone? I’m not pushing for a crt or anything like that since I’m fine with the ratings as they are, this is more for personal curious reasons lol
 
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Do these 2 have any thematic connections
A few tbh. Both -
  • Are the “Father” and first member of their respective race (Yhwach = Quincy, Adam = Human)
  • Are the son/creation of their verse’s god
  • Both have special eyes (Almighty and Eyes of the Lord
  • Their eyes render what they see “useless” (Yhwach power nulls what he sees while Adam surpasses what he sees)
  • Can “take/gain” the powers of others. (Yhwach through sharing his soul, Adam via EotL copying and surpassing what others do.
  • The appearance of both on the battlefield makes the super strong old guy who leads the enemy pantheon (Zeus is the Chairman of the gods’ council, Yama is Captain-Commander of the Shinigami) go and fight them (Yama immediately guns for Royd Yhwach, Zeus bullies Shiva into letting him fight Adam)
  • Both fought in a war/fight that determines whether their race gets genocided (Blood War, Ragnarok)
Not too many overall but considering Adam existed for 7-9 chapters 5.5-7.5 of those being just fighting, it’s a surprising amount of connections tbh.
Question, is the anime considered a Canon adaptation
It’s certainly a level of canon but if you are asking as to it’s canonicity in regards to the manga, not a chance. Events are basically the same, if a bit uglier, but they change quite a bit in terms of statements.
  • Lightning fast jabs becomes speed of light jabs.
  • Shattering the earth becomes destroying continents
  • Never missing a throw becomes magically enchanted to never miss a throw
  • Time Punch goes from MFTL+/infinite speed/time stop to “surpassing all the laws of time”
 
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Yeah I understand, and sorry to ask since I know you’re focused on other things as well, but do we take in account Kenpachi’s multipliers from TYBW arc? Cause technically speaking his CFYOW bankai would be baseline moon level lol

And then how do we rate true shikai Ichigo in comparison to that? Do we rate him as the same level as shikai Kenpachi since both were stated to be able to easily beat Hikone? I’m not pushing for a crt or anything like that since I’m fine with the ratings as they are, this is more for personal curious reasons lol
True Shikai Ichigo is just too much above him at that point. He would still be rating on where he is rated with the God Tiers. Whatever Dangai get rated as to be precise.
 
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Ichigo can't meet masaki no ?

She died from a hollow. That destroy quincies's soul no ? Masaki is gone for good .

And on the whole Adam vs Yhwach debate , my stance is this:
Yhwach's passives are enough to deal with everything Adam have in his arsenal and stomp him.
And even if Adam would blitz Yhwach to all hell , he can't kill him, so even with the wanked statement of the anime, it's a draw at best .
Adam got fucked in a mostly haxless brawl, what can he possibly do to Yhwach ?
 
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